[Jim Nugent]

How about the 16th at Oakland Hills?  The green complex juts out into the water.  The drive isn't diagonal, but aren't there positioning issues there as well? 

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

That is a good question about the dog leg vs. the cape.  As I understand it, the difference is that with the cape, the bend is basically at the green, or right before it, so the green is jutting out into trouble and somewhat perpendicular to the line of play and/or fairway. I think in reality is that some of these fairways start to bend a bit before the actual green and then the green juts out into trouble.

I am not sure it would describe some of the holes pictured above as capes, but sometimes it is tough to tell without playing them.

As for you not having played any capes without diagonal carries, that may be.  But a number of them did not feature diagonal carries.

[George_Bahto]

Here is a very accurate rendition of Fishers Island Cape hole by Charlie Ferguson - this from their earlier club history (not sure if he also put it in the new version)

play as close to the water as possible to gain advantage .....

read Gob's post

[Tim Gavrich]

"Is the 18th at Harbor Town a "Cape"?"


Pat:

Not in my opinion.

George Bahto says "yessiree bob!"  I think it's the positioning of the green rather than the tee ball.

If a hole's Cape-ness hinges principally on the approach shot, can we have a par 3 that is a Cape hole?  It would seem so to me.  I would then consider a near-island green par 3 like the 13th at Pawleys Plantation a Cape hole and I would also be tempted to consider some of the more sandily guarded Redan holes as possessing a distinct Cape-ness.  If indeed that is the case, then is a Redan hole a special sort of Cape hole?

[DMoriarty]

Tim,  My understanding is that the strategy behind the cape was largely in the determination of how to play one's tee shot to best set up the approach-- the greens themselves were not reachable from the tee.  

But I guess if you just want to look at whether the hole juts out into trouble then you could call a par three a cape if you wanted.   But it would be a very different hole from a strategic perspective.

[TEPaul]

"If a hole's Cape-ness hinges principally on the approach shot, can we have a par 3 that is a Cape hole?  It would seem so to me.  I would then consider a near-island green par 3 like the 13th at Pawleys Plantation a Cape hole and I would also be tempted to consider some of the more sandily guarded Redan holes as possessing a distinct Cape-ness.  If indeed that is the case, then is a Redan hole a special sort of Cape hole?"


TimG:

Of course!! All redanish holes have some degree of cape-ness and all cape holes have some degree of redan-ness. Furthermore, they all share a certain amount of architectural elbow-ness, and diagonal-ness and doglegged-ness, and turn-ness etc, etc, etc. We can even spice up this entire stew with a sprinkling of hybrid-ness! Therefore, I think we can all probably conclude that Charles Blair Macdonald invented all of them and so every golf architect who has ever used these things in any shape or form should understand who the driving force is behind all these holes all over the world.

[Jud_T]

The ultimate cape...

[D_Malley]

where did the term "cape" come from?
it seems to me that everyone is linking it with a water cape.
maybe it came from a "cape" that a person would wear.

the green being a persons head, and the cape reflecting the fairway.

[DMoriarty]

D_Malley,

I have it on good source that:

 "The fourteenth hole at the National Golf Links is called the Cape Hole, because the green extends out into the sea with which it is surrounded upon three sides." 
-vCBM and HJW, 1914.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here is a very accurate rendition of Fishers Island Cape hole by Charlie Ferguson - this from their earlier club history (not sure if he also put it in the new version)

play as close to the water as possible to gain advantage .....

read Gob's post

George, that is an accurate rendition of the hole named, "Cape" on the scorecard at FI.
However, I found nothing about the hole to be in the mold/template of a "Cape"
To me, it was a dogleg left, with water flanking the DZ on the left.

There's no diagonal carry, and the green isn't set out, surrounded by a hazard, water or bunkers.

I tried to drive up the right side with a draw, but, the ball wouldn't listen and I ended up in the far right fairway leaving me a 3 iron into the green.

I believe that the name of the hole on the "SCORECARD" naming, isn't THE defining measure of the quality or configuration of the hole.

As much as I loved FI, and I really loved FI, I found the label, "Cape" a bit gratuitous, but, I think I understood the how and why the hole was so named.

[George_Bahto]

Pat: you've got to give up on "diagonal carry"

we usually forget that part of the strategy of a Cape hole is maximizing the positioning of the drive to get the optimum line of approach (relative to the pin)

and Pat, I think that green is sitting in low-land (the hazard on three side involved)


D_Malley: "where did the term "cape" come from?"    check any dictionary   ... bet you find the work "
diagonal" in there

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat: you've got to give up on "diagonal carry"

George, how many of CBM's "Capes" don't require a diagonal carry over a hazard, (water or bunker)
And, how many DO require that carry ?
In my limited experience, most require that diagonal carry over water or bunkers.

we usually forget that part of the strategy of a Cape hole is maximizing the positioning of the drive to get the optimum line of approach (relative to the pin)

I agree that that's an element in a "Cape"
But, that element exists on most doglegs as well, so I don't find it to be a "defining" element in a "Cape".

and Pat, I think that green is sitting in low-land (the hazard on three side involved)

There's a wrap around bunker with the marsh to the left.  A road is behind the green and shrubs/bushes/trees to the right.
My drive had me hitting back toward the green as it almost ran through the fairway, hence the turn point in the rendering isn't realistic in terms of my game and the game of the fellows I played with, who were 10-14 handicaps, but, good drivers of the golf ball.
We were all even or past the green with our drives


D_Malley: "where did the term "cape" come from?"    check any dictionary   ... bet you find the work "
diagonal" in there

Webster's New World College Dictionary, Fourth Edition:
"A piece of land projecting into a body of water; promontory; headland:"

Unfortunately, I didn't see any pictures of a golf hole accompanying the definition.

[D_Malley]

a sleeveless outer garment or part of a garment that fits closely at the neck and hangs loosely over the shoulders
the definition above (also from websters) is the type of cape i am talking about.

i have always thought this kind of described merion #10, the green being the head, the hazards the shoulders, and the cape would be the fairway.

was the term cape ever used in europe in regards to golf design before the NGLA cape.
the wearing of capes by men was probably more common in 1900 england.

[TEPaul]

D Malley:

I believe the etymology of the term "cape" in golf architecture was pretty much geographical and not sartorial, even though some other architectural terms such as "dogleg" and "elbow" were obviously anatomical. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

What are the best examples of "Cape" holes ?

Mid Ocean
NGLA

Where else ?

[Gib_Papazian]

Depending upon how elastic we are going to make the interpretation, what about #10 at Cuscowilla?

If anybody knows how to post a photo, this would be a good time.

[Eric Smith]

Depending upon how elastic we are going to make the interpretation, what about #10 at Cuscowilla?

If anybody knows how to post a photo, this would be a good time.

[Eric Smith]

Just up the road is the 16th at Long Shadow

[Jim_Kennedy]

This shouldn't be so hard to figure out, there just needs to be a scale to measure how well or how much any successive Cape hole stacks up against the original.

....and there is the written word of the man who created it in the first place from which to start. Put some value, in %ages, to the features. 

[Steve Lang]

   

fair to middling

[Kalen Braley]

Based on the definition thats been put out there by David M, it would seem a cape hole only has to be jutting out into the water...much like the definition of what a cape is in geographic terms. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cape_(geography)

It would also seem then, it isn't tied to a par rating...a cape hole could be a par 3 or a par 5.  So one of the best cape holes would then be CPC 16.

You could almost make a case that CPC 17 is a cape hole as water could come into play if you hit your approach too long.

[Jim_Kennedy]

This is the 'type' of Cape Macdonald was referencing:

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kalen,
There was more to my post, but it didn't make it.

I wanted to add that water is part of the dictionary definiton of a Cape, and a surrounding (on three sides) hazard is as important to the golfing definiton as the jutting itself.

[DMoriarty]

Kalen, you can call whatever you want a cape, and "cape" would be a correct adjective for a green sticking out into water and surrounded by water on three sides.

But as CBM used and applied the term to golf holes, he apparently pictured a green not normally reachable from the tee.   Remember that these were much more than just rote physical descriptions, the were underlying strategic concepts, and the strategy in the hole involves calculating the best approach and executing the shot to get it. 

As for CPC 16th, for reasons I explained above to Gib, I am not quite seeing it, but it is certainly within the realm of reasonable.   

As I intimated to Gib, I agree with you regarding CPC 17th.   The green juts out perpendicular to the general line of play, and while it isn't surrounded by water on three sides it is surrounded by water on two sides and a nasty bunker on the third.  Plus, the consideratons off the tee are consistent with the cape.

CPC's 9th has cape qualities as well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Moriarty,

I'd agree that a cape hole CAN'T be a par 3.
I'd disqualify Par 5's as well.

I feel that the diagonal tee shot, that allows the golfer to determine his angle and distance on his approach, is a critical element in classifying a hole as a "Cape" hole.

Is that element is found in most or all of the CBM "Capes".
SR's ?
CB's ?

If so, then that feature must be incorporated in the definition/classification of a "Cape" hole.

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