[Steve Lang]

  Pat.. that's my simple opinion and I'm sticking to it.. both parts required.

p.s. throw in a dash of water for the most excitement

[Patrick_Mucci]

"TEPaul,
Both CBM's original blueprint and George Bahto's schematic/diagram reflect a carry over a diagonal hazard."


Pat:

For starters, I'm not sure how or why you say something like that because the tee on George's drawing and the tee on that Macdonald blueprint are probably up to 75 yards from one another and not distance-wise but directionally!  

I say that based on my review of both plans.

Where was the tee finally built ?

Plus there are no fairway lines on that blueprint like on George's drawings and the mid-hole bunkering is not exactly the same either.

Nevertheless, my point is did Macdonald, Raynor or Banks ever do a cape hole that did NOT have some kind of a diagonal carry off the tee?


I haven't seen one, but then again, I haven't seen all of the "Cape" holes designed and built by CBM, SR and CB.

That's why I suggested the study of their entire body of "Cape" works, and analyzing the compilation.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I had always considered a Cape hole to be from the heroic school of design... In other words, I considered it included a diagonal carry with a better angle and shorter shot in to the green being the progressive reward received for challenging the cape / carry to a larger degree.....

I must confess that I had never spent time thinking about the NGLA original... I always thought more about the 5th at Mid-Ocean...

Interestingly, Whigham's comments above seem to be slightly anti-strategy... I haven't seen NGLA but both his comments and the diagram seem to indicate that the closer to the hazard, the harder the approach... Length is the main (only?) gain from challenging the hazard...

I'll hand it back to you experts now... Please feel free to shoot me down...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave,

Great post.

I'll address some/all of your points when I return from eating to much turkey, potatos, dressing and the like.

Patrick,

This came up recently, and I've taken this response from an earlier post and reworked it a bit:

Original Understanding
As George notes in his book, Macdonald's understanding of the hole was quite specific.   Macdonald's and Whigham's 1914 Golf Illustrated article on on the Cape (in their all too brief Representative American Golf Holes series) leaves no doubt about what they considered a Cape Hole:  "The fourteenth hole at the National Golf Links is called the Cape Hole, because the green extends out into the sea with which it is surrounded upon three sides."    Here is a stitched photo of the plasticine model of the original hole, from the article mentioned above:



H.J. Whigham offered a very good of the fundamental strategic principles underlying the hole in his 1909 Scribner's article:  
"The same principle is applied at the 5th hole, which will be perhaps the most celebrated in the country. The actual distance from tee to flag is about 290 yards—one would have said the worst possible distance for a hole—but it works out beautifully. The hazard in this case is water. Here it is impossible quite to reach the green, but the fine driver if he likes to take a risk and go almost straight for the hole, may get within putting distance and so have a good chance for a three. But the least slice will carry his ball into Sebonac Creek; or if he fails to get 240 yards he will have a difficult little pitch shot onto the promontory. The man who can drive 200 yards may prefer to play fairly well to the left so as to be sure of opening the hole; but then he has a long approach onto the promontory. Finally, the short driver can get across the water by playing well to the left and carrying less than 100 yards; but he has a long second to play and may easily take a five. In fact, the hole is either a three or a four or a five, according to the way the tee shot is played."

Whigham's diagram of the tee options from his 1909 Scribner's article:


The Modern Conception:  A Dumbed Down Cape.
As Macdonald described in Scotland's Gift (and as George succinctly reports in his terrific book) the Cape hole lost its cape green not long after its creation.  This left the hole with a diagonal carry off the tee where one could get closer to the green the more one cut off, and perhaps this accounted for the eventual change in understanding of the concept.   Now almost any sort of hole with a diagonal carry off the tee is called a Cape Hole.   The golfer has a choice of how much of the diagonal to cut off.  The more he cuts off, the less he has left to the green.

In my opinion we've lost some things in translation and/or transition.   While some of Macdonald's Capes had a diagonal carry over trouble (Mid-Ocean and NGLA most notably) there was more to the hole than just cutting of distance.   The trick was understanding one's abilities and executing one's shot to not only get close, but also to get the best angle into the green.   So for example at NGLA's Cape the most daring carry might leave the shortest shot but the absolute worst angle to the green unless the golfer could carry all the way almost even with the green.   Conversely a less daring but well placed shot might leave a slightly longer shot but a much better angle, while the safest carry might leave the longest shot and a difficult angle.   If I recall correctly, George noted that some cape greens favored the angle more from the outside while some (Mid Ocean?) favored the angle from more inside.

So it wasn't just about cutting off as much as possible to get closer to the hole.  It was about balancing the temptation of getting as close with the restraint of knowing one's game and choosing the best line and angle.  And then of course the golfer had to execute, and not just on the drive. Now, like many of our supposed "strategic options" the concept of the cape has been dumbed down to simply cutting a corner to get a shorter shot in.  

Other Applications of the Original Cape Concept.
Many prominent designers and course builders adopted Macdonald's and Whigham's definition of a cape, although they obviously often substituted bunkers or other trouble the water surrounding three sides.  CBM, Raynor, and apparently Banks built many to fit this mold.   In the mid-20's when increasing traffic on Ardmore Avenue necessitated the change, Wilson replaced the CBM style "Alps" 10th at Merion East with a CBM style "Cape" hole.  Flynn described the cape similarly and noted that it was one of his three basic hole concepts for par fours (along with the elbow and dogleg,) and Tillinghast did so as well.  

There are also many other fine early examples of the concept in the ground, including a short par four at Pine Valley that reportedly fits the mold (not sure if it was one of the few CBM suggestions that Crump reportedly followed there.)  While I am not sure he identified it as such, Thomas built a heck of a cape hole at Riviera's 10th.  When thinking about how Prairie Dunes must have played as a Nine Hole course, I was struck by how much the 3rd (now the 6th) must have felt like a cape in the original sense, although incredibly Maxwell created this sensation using mostly contours.  The 12th at Rustic is very cape-like (in the original sense) but the back is guarded by nothing but ground slope away (and in ideal conditions nothing else is needed.)   Other examples abound.  It is really a terrific hole concept and works wonderfully on a short par 4, providing a fan of options where oftentimes the full consequences of the drive are not fully felt until the second.  

Below are the description of Merion's "cape hole" and two photographs, all from the USGA Green Section Record (Nov. 1925.)  [One interesting aside is the measure of the hole: 330 yards.  From the tee in the photos, the hole was at least 50 yards shorter.]







Sorry for the lengthy reply. 

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Once again, my question and the point of my question is did Macdonald, Raynor or Banks ever do a cape hole that did NOT have some kind of a diagonal carry off the tee?

[DMoriarty]

CB Macdonald did not mince words when he described the Cape concept.  Here again are those words: "The fourteenth hole at the National Golf Links is called the Cape Hole, because the green extends out into the sea with which it is surrounded upon three sides."  So why is it so hard for some to take him at his word? 

Was the Diagonal Carry Integral to the Cape Concept?

Short answer:  No.  While the two most famous Capes do feature diagonal carries, these carries were only around 150 yards the longest.  So while these may have been scary carries for all, they were only strategically significant to short hitters.[/i]  Other of CBM's early versions of the concept, such as at St. Louis, Yale, and the Lido, did not feature this type of diagonal carry. 

1.  NGLA and Mid Ocean.
With today's insane technology, it is easy to forget the greens on Cape holes generally could not be carried from the tee.  So when considering the "diagonal carry" we ought to be thinking of the actual, realistic, carry.   AT IT'S LONGEST, the diagonal carry at NGLA was 150 yards.  From CBM in 1914:  "The shortest way over the water, a carry of 120 yards, is the longest way to the hole, whereas the shortest way to the hole is to the right, a carry of 150 yards."  Likewise, at Mid Ocean the diagonal carry was about the same, around 150 yards AT ITS LONGEST.  So, again, for even the moderately competent hitter, making the carry was not really ever an issue.  So while the capes at NGLA and Mid Ocean featured fairly short diagonal carries over over water, the actual diagonal carry was not long enough to be a key strategic component.

2.  St. Louis, Yale, and the Lido.
Some of Macdonald's Cape holes did not require a diagonal carry.  There is no diagonal carry at Yale's Cape.  St. Louis (1914) does have a carry over a creek of about 150 yards off the tee (probably shorter then.) but the Cape at St. Louis does not feature a diagonal carry off the tee.  Perhaps most telling is the Lido's Cape, because presumably CBM could have made the underlying strategic principles exactly as he wanted. Here is what CBM had to say about the hole in 1915:

"The fifth hole resembles the Cape hole at the National, but the bunkering and undulations probably make it a little more scientific than our Cape hole off the tee. One will always see however that it is the creation ofBut so far as I know man and not the creation of Nature, for it has, as most holes on this course have, the technical design of an architect rather than the inimitable design of nature."**   

The Lido's Cape had no diagonal carry off the tee, at least not anything like the diagonal at NGLA.   There was an optional diagonal carry away from the hole, but even here the carry is no more than 150 yards AT ITS LONGEST, and thus not an issue all but the very short hitter off the tee.  Here is a photo of the plasticine model of the 320 yard hole. 



In Sum, the diagonal carry off the tee is not integral to the hole concept.  While some holes feature a short diagonal carry, that carry is not really strategically significant to most golfers.   Other Cape feature do not feature a diagonal at all.

**[ASIDE: note that even in 1915 (when the Lido was not being built) CBM had already realized that his attempts to play "creator" could not possibly match nature.]

_____________________________________________

Ally,
I think your post expresses the modern conception of the cape rather well --  cut off more of the diagonal and reap the reward of a shorter shot and better angle into the green.  This too is pretty indicative of our modern understanding of the way strategy works:

Interestingly, Whigham's comments above seem to be slightly anti-strategy... I haven't seen NGLA but both his comments and the diagram seem to indicate that the closer to the hazard, the harder the approach... Length is the main (only?) gain from challenging the hazard...
I'll hand it back to you experts now... Please feel free to shoot me down...

Successfully challenge a hazard, reap a benefit.  Fail, and your dead.  Simple as that.   This seems to be the simple formula that applies to most of what we think strategy is these days.   Do-or-die strategy.  Reap a big benefit or die trying.  It doesn't get much more heroic than that.   But far from being "anti-strategy"  the original conception of the Cape hole is actual a much more sophisticated and layered concept of strategy.  And unfortunately it was so subtle that now some don't even recognize it as strategy.   
1. The original cape involved a delayed cost, one that might only come into play on the second.   balancing of costs and benefits that were far more nuanced than the black/white, pass/fail world of the modern cape.   
2. The costs and benefits were less do-or-die and more incremental:  Driving on the most direct line benefited the golfer by getting him closer to the green, but with a potential cost of a much more difficult angle of approach.   Likewise hitting it further away from the most direct line might provide a better angle, but the cost was a longer shot. 
3. Rather than simply punishing the duffer, the hole aimed to push back a bit on the golfer who overestimates his ability. Try to hit a very good shot, but only hit it  nearly good?  You'll be left with a miserable angle.

So there was plenty of strategy.  It just wasn't as blatant and in your face as most of the supposed strategy we see to today.

[Neil_Crafter]

If Macdonald's notion was ever the diagonal carry then the hole would have been called a "Bay" hole. It's called a "Cape" for the obvious reason of the green jutting out into the water.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

I can't comment on Shinnecock since I have neither the blueprint or Bahto's diagram.  To the other 4, the picture below shows the NGLA plasticene model, and the current version of St Louis, Mid Ocean and Yale from top to bottom.

Arguably, only Mid Ocean provides a diagonal carry option.  NGLA is more of a straight forward forced carry.  There's not really much diagonality to it.  Yale don't seem to provide much of a diagonal carry option.  St Louis provides some diagonal option, but it is only 10 or 20 more yards to carry the creek.

St Louis doesn't seem to provide a hazard on 3 sides of the green, while the others do.

Yale doesn't seem to provide substantially better angles to the green depending on the drive, while the others do.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Successfully challenge a hazard, reap a benefit.  Fail, and your dead.  Simple as that.   This seems to be the simple formula that applies to most of what we think strategy is these days.   Do-or-die strategy.  Reap a big benefit or die trying.  It doesn't get much more heroic than that.   But far from being "anti-strategy"  the original conception of the Cape hole is actual a much more sophisticated and layered concept of strategy.  And unfortunately it was so subtle that now some don't even recognize it as strategy.   
1. The original cape involved a delayed cost, one that might only come into play on the second.   balancing of costs and benefits that were far more nuanced than the black/white, pass/fail world of the modern cape.   
2. The costs and benefits were less do-or-die and more incremental:  Driving on the most direct line benefited the golfer by getting him closer to the green, but with a potential cost of a much more difficult angle of approach.   Likewise hitting it further away from the most direct line might provide a better angle, but the cost was a longer shot. 
3. Rather than simply punishing the duffer, the hole aimed to push back a bit on the golfer who overestimates his ability. Try to hit a very good shot, but only hit it  nearly good?  You'll be left with a miserable angle.

So there was plenty of strategy.  It just wasn't as blatant and in your face as most of the supposed strategy we see to today.

So I was being a little flippant with my "anti-strategy" comment - There are many varieties on a theme... and your cost / benefit analysis is obviously one key to challenging the good player... But you are grossly underselling the "modern, unsubtle" concept of strategy in an heroic carry... Far from being black or white / do or die, the reward of challenging of the hazard with better angle AND length is a whole series of greys... it is entirely incremental...

Weighing up cost versus benefit is one very good approach... But don't mistake an heroic carry with straight forward binary choice...

Neil's point on cape versus Bay is a very good one...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bryan,
On Yale #2 there is a distinct advantage gained by driving your ball up the right side, from there you have easier access to any portion of the green. Plus, from the right you can let a ball run on with little spin, but that's fairly impossible from the left side.   

[Bryan Izatt]

Jim,

If there is any diagonal (however modest) off the tee, it must be to challenge the drop off to the left and shorten the hole. But, what's the point if it leaves you at a worse angle for the approach shot?  If the preferred driving line is up the right side of the fairway, then there is no diagonal carry at all.  So, I guess I'm questioning if this hole meets the diagonal-carry-over-a-hazard-tee-shot principle for a Cape hole.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bryan,
I would say that hugging the left side gives some advantage for front, or front right, locations, but as the cup moves back you will be forced into carrying more of the drop off on the left. You also have to be careful of going long to the right when playing in from the left.

There isn't as great a flirtation with disaster from failing to carry the hazard at Yale as there isn't one in front, but you wouldn't want to play from the ground they give you if you top one from the tee, it's worth at least a 1/2 stoke. Some flirtation with the sides of the hole give better approaches depending on cup locations, so there is a similar hazard running laterally from tee to green.

[Bryan Izatt]

Inspired by the Punta Espada thread, here is another modern Cape hole that reasonably closely resembles CBM's NGLA plasticine model, although it has more diagonality off the tee.  I guess Nicklaus has studied the Cape hole.

[TEPaul]

I've never played or even seen the cape holes of Yale, St. Louis and obviously Lido but I certainly have seen and played the cape holes of NGLA and Mid Ocean a lot.

With the tee shot at Mid Ocean the tee is high and the entire hole is there below you in plain view but even if the left side diagonal is fairly slight there is a problem of sorts as to where exactly to aim a tee shot on an aggressive line because it is hard to tell what the carry distance really is pretty far along (again, a bit of experience does take care of this).

And with NGLA's Cape hole today the thing that the aerials and diagrams above show is the length and width dimensions of the hole and diagonal (as slight as it may be) but what does not show up is the vertical dimension along the right side of NGLA's Cape hole. The point is it can be hard to tell with little to no experience on that hole where to aim along the aggressive right side because you just can't see where the fairway ends and the hazard begins down near that pond and beach bunker. So NGLA's Cape hole tee shot can be sort of deceptive at first because you can't see where the danger is on the aggressive line with say a driver. Not to even mention that fairway has a lot of perpindicular rolls to it which also make visibility somewhat tough.

That is precisely why I've always played a long iron on that tee because I can just aim a bit more left to the fairway I can see really well from the tee.

And I've also seen a lot of good players who take driver on that hole and hit it far more down the right side who actually think they've hit a good shot only to get down there and find their ball has gone in that hazard far down the right side.

[DMoriarty]

Ally,

I agree that I was overly dismissive of the range of options presented by the modern conception of the cape.  I sensed that when I wrote the post, but it was late and I was feeling full of turkey, among other things . . .  That said, I do think that the old cape concept presented a different set of costs and benefits, and in some ways a more obvious and less nuanced range of considerations.  
____________________________________________

Bryan,

I think your photo is of the 8th hole at Yale, isn't it?  I believe Banks described the 2nd hole as based on the Cape concept, with the green jutting out into the air instead of water.  

[Chris Wirthwein]

Another modern Cape style -- from Pete Dye. Hole No. 8 at Crooked Stick, constructed in 1967.

The trees at back left of the green (in the illustration above) aren't there and never have been (a figment of the artist's imagination). The tree at back right of the green, just beyond the bunker, does exist as seen in the next photo (shot from back right, behind the green). It effectively eliminates any bailout long right.


View from behind the green. The tee is just left of the flag stick in the distant tree line.

Excerpted from:

www.crookedstickbook.com

[Gib_Papazian]

TEP,
My recollection of the Cape at Fishers is one with water adjacent to the fairway on the left side - with no diagonal carry. I'm not sure if the tee was ever moved, but as it was arranged during our visit 10 years ago, it was straight off the tee with the object being to place the ball as close as possible to the bank of the water to shorten the carry to the green on the far side.

The entire concept of what constitutes a Cape hole (in its original sense) is interesting once the definition moves beyond the requirement of water as the surrounding hazard. Is not the 4th hole at Spyglass a Cape? What is the difference between a green complex jutting out into the water vs. one bordered on three sides with sand dunes and gnarly ice plant?

  

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You can't take a long iron off the tee anymore unless you just enjoy hitting balls into the water.
There's a new back tee on # 14 making the carry far more challenging.

The 14th fairway and flanking bunkers that are fed by that fairway form an interesting architectural relationship.

Those bowls and crests not only create interesting lies, but, elements of blindness.

Is the 18th at Harbor Town a "Cape" ?

[TEPaul]

"Is the 18th at Harbor Town a "Cape"?"


Pat:

Not in my opinion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

How so ?

The tee shot is over a diagonal water hazard that also flanks the green.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Maybe you and some others on here think any hole that plays over some diagonal at some point is a cape hole but I don't. I've played Harbor Town a number of times and I've never considered that tee shot exactly diagonal or the approach shot even if there is a massive water hazard on the left of the 17th and 18th holes known as Callaboogiewoogie Sound. That is also one enormous fairway.

[TEPaul]

"What is the difference between a green complex jutting out into the water vs. one bordered on three sides with sand dunes and gnarly ice plant?"


Gib:

No real difference in my opinion. Good call on FI's cape hole. That is a tee shot that one definitely can not carry over any diagonal. And the green on that hole doesn't exactly stick out into anything either as there is considerable fairway in front of that green from just about any decent tee shot.

Methinks some on here get far too general about certain things and certain definitions probably to be able to make some ancillary point.

[Mike Demetriou]

I've often thought about whether the 13th at the Ocean Course is a Cape hole. Sure, from the back the tee shot satisfactorily meets the strict definition set forth at the beginning of this thread, but what about the green complex? I think it does, but what do the "experts" here think?

Here is the description from Kiawah's website:

From the back tees, the canal is definitely in play as the tee shot must carry across the hazard to reach the fairway.  Just how far down the canal the tee shot carries is up to the player.  On the second shot, the canal continues to be a menacing factor, swallowing up even the slightest push.  Again, the approach has been left open to the run-up shot.  Players electing to take the “safe” route away from the water may find one of two deep, pot-bunker-like waste areas guarding the left side.  A classic “Cape” hole.

[Bill_McBride]

"Is the 18th at Harbor Town a "Cape"?"


Pat:

Not in my opinion.

George Bahto says "yessiree bob!"  I think it's the positioning of the green rather than the tee ball.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gib,

Earlier I refered to a particular hole as a "pure "cape" hole.

Like any template I think there are variations on the theme.

Certainly a hole where bunkering replaces or is a substitute for water would qualify as a "cape" hole, although not in its purest form.

TEPaul,

Without the diagonal carry on the tee shot, doesn't every dogleg qualify as a hybrid "cape" hole ?

Every "Cape" hole that I've seen has a carry over a diagonal hazard, be it sand or water.

Are you saying that the tee shot on the 18th at HT doesn't confront a diagonal hazard on the left ?

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