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Doug Braunsdorf

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http://www.nj.com/news/local/index.ssf/2009/11/woodbridge_eyes_financially_tr.html

I haven't played here before, but I believe this is a Tom Bendelow design from the late 1800s or early 1900s. This is potentially good news for golfers in Middlesex County, and for golf, as more golf courses won't be lost to strip malls and housing developments, although I don't see local governments all across the USA doing this.  

Discuss.
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Ron Csigo

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Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2009, 08:52:56 AM »
Colonia Country Club is a decent track that would be a welcome addition to the municipal system in Middlesex County especially to those living in the Woodbridge/Iselin/Edison area.  Given the neighborhood that CCC is in, keeping the golf course would make more sense then adding another strip mall or housing development to an otherwise congested area.
Playing and Admiring the Great Golf Courses of the World.

David Schofield

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Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2009, 08:59:37 AM »
Aside from the golf story, did I read the councilmember correctly on two items?:
1. It will cost "nothing" to keep it green space.  Even if you ignore the purchase price, what are their maintenance costs?
2. Why would the town be obligated to pay for new roads within a new subdivision on the site?  Why wouldn't that be a developer's cost.

Matt_Ward

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2009, 09:13:38 AM »
Doug:

Good post.

FYI ... from what I have gleaned there are a number of other courses that are close to what Colonia is facing. The issue is how far and fast those situations develop. Unfortunately, some of those that do just status may not all stay as golf courses.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2009, 09:40:53 AM »
Doug and Matt,

There are some recent examples locally:

Reading CC,near Reading,PA, was purchased by Exeter Township after threatining eminent domain when the owners were negotiationg a sale for residential development.

Lulu CC, in eastern Montgomery County, PA, recently received 2M$ in "open space money" from Upper Dublin Township.

 
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

archie_struthers

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Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2009, 12:57:38 PM »
 :D ;D ;)

let's hope the  government doesn't buy any more golf courses and contribute to the demise of hard working tax paying private owers of clubs .  not a good venture to condone imho

Matt_Ward

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2009, 02:07:57 PM »
Archie:

Under your premise -- why have muni golf at all ?

I'd much rather have a facility stay as a golf course then have it converted into more housing / strip malls, et al that only add to the overall densities in a given area and forever rob the locale of some vital green space and in the case of a golf course a recreational alternative.

Steve:

The Reading example is a good one -- would people have rather seen more housing or keep a course that can provide enjoyment for the wide array of people interested in the game.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2009, 02:10:28 PM »
Archie,

I agree, eminent domain can get dicey.

David Schofield,

You did read him correctly and are as puzzled as I am about his statements.

Colonia is in a residential neighborhood, it's bordered on many sides by homes.


archie_struthers

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Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2009, 09:50:49 PM »
 :( ??? :(

Matt given my personal experience with government intervention in the business of golf  and how they stack the deck in their favor I'd rather they just stay out of ....they don't play by the rules like we do

Matt_Ward

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2009, 10:48:21 PM »
Archie:

Under your rationale why have public libraries since they "stack the deck in their favor" over private companies like Barnes & Noble. I can name other situations in which the public is provided for through publicly owned operations that compete against privately owned entities.

Muni golf allows people to gain a foothold within golf -- generally at lower prices than the privately owned daily fee counterparts. No doubt your angst against muni golf is likely tied to the fact that taxpayer-owned operations don't pay property taxes and are exempt from other elements that privately owned operations have to pay.

Is that the "rules" you are speaking about?

By the way - is the McCullough's situation still resonating with people in and around the AC area ?

archie_struthers

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Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2009, 04:45:51 PM »
 :D ;D :( :o

Taxes are just the beginning of the problem

 ...we had to build a better golf course , as we are not subsidized


we had to build a sidewalk to nowhere along Ocean Heights Avenue , and landscape it appropriately ...to date McCullagh's has not had to do the same , though our permits came first


Ballamor paid almost $300k for it's liquor license ...the muni was issued a free one ...

almost every local outing is held at the publicly owned facility .... is it that much better ???

they shut our operation down routinely , at great costs to our construction budget

the township  tried to keep us from shiipping dirt from our job out of town , but lost in court

I was threatened personally

our equipment was sabotaged

the county road inspector offered to testify as to the harassment we received on a daily basis ...she was disgusted by it

if I still owned it , I couldn't say this for fear of retaliation to our business

is it getting prettier ???

unfortunately that's the deal ...if you don't understand the rules you shouldn't play

now  about that library   






Matt_Ward

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2009, 06:17:52 PM »
Archie:

Sorry to hear about the issues and hardball tactics played against you.

Clearly in a few of the instances you went to court and were successful.

I am not here to defend such behavior nor is it fair for you to simply paint with a broad brush and see all types of taxpayer-owned courses as being aligned to the actions you endured.

However, you dodged my central question -- do you favor muni golf or not ?

Free or reduced options are provided by public entities when compared to their private counterparts -- I mentioned libraries, you also have public colleges versus those that are private -- there are numerous other examples.

In regards to outings -- clearly costs are going to be a big part of any determination on where it will be staged. The quality of the layout may be far less of an issue to the host group. Candidly, I would hold my outings at the better golf course and be willing to pay the larger price so long as turf issues were either equal or better.

archie_struthers

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Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2009, 12:52:39 AM »


 ;D >:( >:( 8)


Matt I am against any government ownership of business...particularly golf courses ....don't think golf is an inalienable right as guaranteed by our Constitution ...education probably is...

In my perfect world, no more municipals would be built .....they have too great an advantage over private ownership facilities

what was obviously once a good idea has been perverted  to a great extent...the road to hell is paved with good intentions

 honestly don't kow how to would deal with existing municipally owned facilities but those that lose money should be sold to the highest bidder...
  

should government  build and operate other businesses to  compete with and undercut  those their citizens ....certainly people need food and drugs more than golf courses  ...why not  have municipal pharmacies or burger joints


but

obviously lots of people in todays society want the government to take a bigger role in our lives and control more stuff....hence the debates raging about banking and health care ...we'll see how this all works out
 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 12:58:49 AM by archie_struthers »

Matt_Ward

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2009, 01:05:58 AM »
Archie:

Help me understand something - might it be possible that you are over-reacting to the situation you faced?

I am not here to defend the behavior you say happened to you and your efforts. But, does throwing out the baby with the bath oil make sense?

Mumi golf has a clear role. Those who operate as privately owned daily fee courses or CCFAD's -- simply want to cherry pick those with the deeper pockets. Nothing wrong with that --  but where does that leave those who don't have or don't want to spend the extra $$$ in order to play golf.

Archie, please don't go down the tired Republican / far right line that people who advocate muni golf are in complete line with what might take place for the health care system and banking / financial.

Archie, under your reasoning (shall I call it that ?) here would be no public libraries, no public recreation systems that provide swimming pols or tennis courts and the like.

Matt_Ward

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2009, 01:13:54 AM »
Forgive me for cutting myself off.

You need to spell out what has been "perverted" because you have lost me on that score.

Again, I'm not here to defend the actions that took place against you. However, I do think it's a bit much -- way too much I might add -- to simply say that all future muni golf operations should not move forward. I guess that would mean no Chambers Bay and other such courses. I mean why have such places like Bethpage State Park ?

When you speak about local muni courses losing $$ are you referring to any courses of that type in and around the AC area or is your comments just meant in general terms.

Archie, as I said before -- under your rationale -- there could be no public libraries, no public tennis courts, no municipal swimming pools. One other thing -- the US Constituiton doesn't mandate education -- so why have public institutions providing education -- simply have private providers only.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2009, 08:11:32 AM »
Matt Ward,

What I believe Archie is saying is that muni golf can't be competed with by private enterprise because of the almost unlimited subsidy provided by the ability to tax,  combined with the wielding of power.

Winning in court can be extremely costly for someone like Archie.
The government has almost unlimited resources, time and money.

In addition, I've seen Counties blow through (read destroy) wetlands that private property owners were fined for sneezing in.

It's a double standard, and an unfair one at that.

Justin Broderson

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2009, 09:02:08 AM »
Archie and Pat,

   While I understand your points, there is something you are not taking into consideration at all.  What about those of that love to play golf but couldn't afford to pay a $100 dollars every time we play or can't afford the $25,000 initation fees and $10,000 yearly dues which is basically as low as it gets here in northern NJ.  Sure I would love to make the 5 minute drive to Mountain Ridge and play but that would probably keep my family from being able to eat.  Sunset Valley is 10 minutes the other the way and is amazing track for $25 dollars a round.  At $25 dollars a round I can afford to bring both my kids for less then cost of 1 player at most CCFD"S.  How many kids would be playing golf if it cost a $100 a round?  What would the future of golf be if that was the case? 

   

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2009, 09:04:46 AM »
Archie,

Remember that muni golf came first in golfing history. Boston, New York and Philadelphia started "public golf" for the common good during the growth of the game in the late part of the 19th century and the early part of the 20th century. I've asked this question before and can't find an answer:

What was the first non municipal public  or non resort course course in the USA?

Clearly, some entreprenur decided to copy the muni model and tried to make a profit. That's the American way.

Your situation in building Twisted Dune in the same township/city with McCullough's Emerald Links is a case study unto itself. Wasn't Twisted Dune originally conceived as a private course?

Today, as I noted above, there is growing trend in highly developed areas to spend public money to keep space "open" and prevent further development. In fact, one of the examples I cited above- the LuLu situation in Upper Dublin Township- is unique in that UD  owns a course nearby- Twining Valley- AND spent 2M to keep the private LuLu "open space" in perpituity without any public objection. So, if  Woodbridge wants to buy Colonia, so be it as it's for the common good. See Justin's post above.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 10:32:56 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Patrick_Mucci

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2009, 09:23:02 AM »
Justin,

You're missing Archie's point.

It's not about public versus private, it's about a course owned by private enterprise, open to the public and a course owned by a municipality or governmental body (county or special authority) which is open to the public.

A public course owned by Archie can't compete on an equal footing with the public course owned by the government.

Archie described some of the reasons and problems.

I added that the unlimited resources available to the course owned by a government, along with the power the government wields, make for a non-level playing field.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2009, 09:29:59 AM »
Steve Shaffer,

As I drive by empty office buildings and plants, I have to wonder, why, in this day and age is any town anti-development.

As I read my newspapers every day, I see that town after town, county after county, state after state, is in financial trouble.

They have to do one of two things.  Slash their budgets or increase revenue.  With an anti-development mindset, slashing budgets is the only viable option.

Yet, if "development" occurs, employment occurs, business and labor thrive and the tax base increases.

So, anit-development comes at a price.  Governments can't have it both ways.

When business is good, labor is good and when business and labor are good, the tax revenues are good.
Every one benefits.

When business is bad and the anti-development factions prevail, it's not good for anyone.

archie_struthers

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Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2009, 09:43:09 AM »
 :D ;) 8)


A case study yes , in how government can do pretty much whatever they want to you , if they choose.  Pat Mucci probably elucidated my position better than I did.  Matt, as to being a Republican  , or a Democrat for that matter , please !

As to the affordability of golf,  how many things are the same price or less than they were a decade ago? How about the cost of food,oil, cable tv . Why should golf be subsidized ?

  At one time municipal golf was a noble premise, as there was very little inventory....that is certainly not the case today in almost all areas of the country.



Don't see how libraries and schools are analogous to golf courses . Golf , as dear as it is to me, is a luxury item. Given the glut of inventory, there isn't much worry going forward as to the price spiraling out of control.  


Matt , as to specifics , when Ballamor can't make it at a reported $3.5 million purchase can e.g. McCullagh's Emerald' Links possibly cover their debt service when they spent over $11,000,000 to build it ?   It just can't happen....







Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2009, 09:51:07 AM »
Pat

The people, at least in PA and NJ, have voted to spend their tax dollars to keep space open. It's the old NIMBY scenario. The money is there for governments to spend. I live adjacent to Upper Dublin Township. Their school taxes are very high but are probably lower than your taxes in NJ. ;D. LuLu is in a highly desirable area for residential development. The Commisssioners voted unaminously to spend the money without any public objection. That's the answer.

Archie

McCullough's was a course that shouldn't have been built except for the fact that Mayor McCullough was the moving force behind it and he had "feasabilty studies" and the power to build a monument to himself.

Wasn't Twisted Dune conceived as a private course? Correct me if I'm wrong.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Justin Broderson

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2009, 09:58:34 AM »
I hope not to offend anyone with this by why the hell should the public golfer care about whether or not you can compete with a municipality?  

And golf is a luxury item?  What kind of elitist garbage is that?  Do you really think the golfing world would be able to survive without the muni golfer.  If you get rid of the people who can't afford luxury items do you know how many viewers your taking from TV, how many retail customers you are taking out of the golf stores?  How many less golfers would come spend that $100 at your CCFD for a day because they never had the chance to be introduced to golf?

To me this is one of the saddest things I have read on this board.  You are basically saying "f" the public golfer and leave it for us with money.  Really disappointing.

Matt_Ward

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2009, 12:10:47 PM »
Pat Mucci:

You missed my retort to Archie by a country mile.

Should muni golf exist ?

Should taxpayer jurisdictions build such enterprises with public $$ ?

Under the scenarios that Archie mentioned there would be no role for government to provide such alternatives to those which are privately developed and which almost always cherry pick the top tier players with the deeper pockets.

I became involved in golf through my dad and his intro came through the muni courses. Without them - myself and countless others would not have gotten into the game.

Pat, I am not here to excuse public development that can destroy wetlands without the same standards being applied to them as they are to private operators. That's not the focus of the statement raised by Archie nor my retort to him.

Under his rationale -- future muni golf would not exist. Under the reasoning places like Chambers Bay would never have been created in the first place.

Matt_Ward

Re: News from NJ: Woodbridge eyes financially troubled Colonia Country Club
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2009, 12:58:24 PM »
Archie:

Let me cover a number of your last comments to me.

The AC market was oversaturated with golf before McCullough's came onto the scene. There were too many courses thinking they could charge $100 green fees and believing the gravy train would continue indefinitely. When a publicly owned entity entered the scene the remaining players who were under the impression their $100 cash cow would go on saw them as the principal enemy -- when in reality the show was over before that happened.

I am not excusing the tactics employed against you -- so please -- no need to repeat yourself on that front.

You ask why should golf be subsidized? Ok -- then under your theory -- why have ANY muni golf at all. As an FYI -- muni golf provides a pipeline for people who are just getting started into golf -- it does so through a fee structure that allows them to pay for rounds of golf when such fees at other CCFAD or privately owned daily fee layouts are higher -- and in a number of cases -- much higher. Golf, prior to muni golf, was an elitist game -- shall we return to those glory days! ::) I would guess, taking your position to its logical end, why the need to build a Chambers Bay -- why the need to have public $$ plowed into Bethpage State Park?

Let me point out that libraries -- those created from the public treasury -- were once viewed by private hands as something that was wasteful too. We now know that such thinking is backward. Let me point out that libraries directly compete with private providers such as Barnes & Nobles, Blockbuster, et al. Shall we close libaries under your rationale? What about towns with tennis courts, health club options, municipal pools? Shall we close them because they are publicly subsidized and compete with private providers? What about public education institutions? Why don't we close them because they drain $$ and people away from private providers?

When you speak about the inventory -- the reality is that developers of privately owned courses / real estate have only themselves to blame. They are the ones who went out and simply built and built and built. The glut of courses happened through their own inabilty to see clearly the forces that were at work.

In all reality -- those who wanted to cherry pick off the top tier deep-pocketed players only were thinking short term -- they weren't interested in growing the game. Now that the situation has become what it is -- it's convenient to use the muni golf system as the culprit for their own failures.

Last thought -- if McCullough's spent that much on a project -- then the taxpayers of that jurisdiction should raise holy hell because of the demands all people are facing with this economy -- even when the course was first proposed there may have been other more needed items for the public $$ to be spent upon.

Archie, you are clearly entitled to see what happened to you and those connected to you as the rationale you are advocating now. I don't live within your specific shoes but believe your broad brush conclusion on the value / lack thereof of muni golf is way overstated.





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