[Rick Sides]

I have a question for the group.  What exactly constitutes a "dog track?"  Isn't golf course architecture subjective like art?  Here is an example; I played a top 10 course in the world with another man and he absolutely didn't like the course.  Most people would say this course is awesome.  What right did I have to argue with him?  Everyone has the right to an opinion when it comes to artistic expression.  So what is a dog track?  Is it horrible condition?  Poor holes?   Bad setting?  Houses on the property?  Too many trees? 

[Garland Bayley]

Too many fire hydrants.

[Tom_Doak]

I think you've got to have a mechanical rabbit.

[Jim_Kennedy]

How could a well regarded golf course, or any other well regarded work, be considered a dog track? You don't like it, fine, but that has no bearing whatsoever on quality.

[Rick Sides]

Good one Tom

Tom,
I think you as an architect have to understand.  Architects are very much like painters and the course is the pallet.  When you create a course, it's your mind's eye telling you what would look good, play well, etc.  I'm sure you have had people criticize your work- not that I would- and you probably thought to yourself you did a good job.  It gets frustrating sometimes when people on this site attack others opinions when golf course architecture is so subjective.

[Jeff Tang]

I have always associated the term "dog track" with poor conditioning, not really with the quality of the layout necessarily.  However often those two go hand in hand.

[Ronald Montesano]

A dog track is a course designed by William Harries, the creator of the most boring greens in the world.  Despite being a member at Cherry Hill in Ontario, home to some of Travis' finest putting surfaces, Harries utilized none of this influence on the munis he designed in western New York (at last count, four or five of the most densely-populated munis in the Buffalo parish.)

[JLahrman]

I actually have a positive association with the term.  To me a dog track is a poorly conditioned, uninteresting course, but also embraces this and charges you $15 to play.

See also:  Goat run

[Kenny Baer]

Rick,

If you don't mind saying what Top 10 course in the world did your playing partner "absolutely did not like" and what was his reasoning?  Just curious, I could not imagine any Top 10 in the world garnering that type of response.

[Bill_McBride]

I actually have a positive association with the term.  To me a dog track is a poorly conditioned, uninteresting course, but also embraces this and charges you $15 to play.

See also:  Goat run

This brings to mind the apocryphal Fort Worth muni Dan Jenkins called "Goat Hills" in his memoir and funny golf novels. 

I don't think he meant there were actually goats running around out there!

[Sean_A]

You lot are mixing metaphors.  Dog track has to be flat - too flat.  Goat track has to be hilly, too hilly.  Get its straight!

We shouldn't be too hard on these ma n' pa places (or in some cases what should be ma n' pa places).  A lot of good times are had at these courses and some damn good players come from them.  Besides, for what these places normally charge it would be churlish to complain.  If you don't like the place, don't play there, but please lest not start a campaign to C&C and Doak everything.   

Ciao

[Alister Matheson]

I think you've got to have a mechanical rabbit.

Yes and a Bookmakers in the Clubhouse.

[Jon Wiggett]

What about that one at Musselburgh Old? Oh no, that's a horse track

[JeffTodd]

I think I'll lift this one from Potter Stewart. I may not know how to define a dog track, but I know it when I see it.

[Jud_T]

When we arrived for our first trip to Ireland, we headed directly to Baltray.  My caddy was extremely hung over.  I had to fortify him with a blast from my flask in order to make it around the loop.  When he started feeling a bit better, he inquired as to what other courses we were playing on our trip.  As I was reeling off the list of courses for him and came across one in particular, he stopped me and in a heavy accent said gravely "Aye, Portmarnock, it's a Dogtrack" (pronounced Dawgtracccccht).  Ever since we have referred to a myriad of courses, good and bad, with this moniker....  

[Mike_Young]

I would wager more golfers consider poorly maintained courses with good architecture dog tracks than they do poorly designed courses in great condition.  IMHO 99% would never consider a well maintained course a dog track.
Sometimes we forget golf for the masses...and that is not meant as an insult to the masses.....it is the same with everything....orvis flyrod or Sage....Is Red Lobster a goat track compared to your favorite seafood restaurant....is a John Grisham novel a goat track compared to Hemingway....Vince Gill as to Jim Nabors?....is a JW Marriott a goat track compared to a well kept boutique hotel.....NO...but the MAJORITY of the people will consider these all exceptional....it is not until one becomes entrenched in a subject that he can delve into all of the issues that separate "goat track" from exceptional.....and that is why so many of our courses get into trouble....the ordinary member or owner doesn't know/see the difference.  And we are right back at maintenance....maintenance level defines goat track for 99%
Happy Thanksgiving

[Jud_T]

I think there are plenty of well conditioned courses that I would call dogtracks...Ballybunion Cashen for one, although technically a goat track 

[Rick Sides]

Kenny,
I would rather not mention the top 10 course, only because I don't won't to offend anyone on the sight, howver, everyone knows this course.  In any event, this man did not shoot well on the course and was criticizing it, not really for conditioning, but basically saying it didn't deserve the hype.  When we were about to complete the round, the caddy, who was fantastic asked him about the course and he said, "it was okay, I think I liked Bethpage Black and a few others more." Our playing partners all kind of looked at each other when he said this, but didn't argue. I think his bad round affected his view of the course.

[Lou_Duran]

When in high school, I was advised by a late-20s guy that all ----- was good, and that it was just a matter of some being better than other.  I feel much the same way about golf courses.  It amazes me sometimes to hear the vitriol on this site about golf courses and architects.  A lot of it is a matter of preference, and not too small a part may be due to length and level of difficulty.

I've been disappointed only occasionally, most notably by East Lake and Winged Foot-West largely because my expectations were so high (and in the case of East Lake, I had to twist a couple of arms for access).  Both are fine courses that just didn't tickle my fancy (I played well at East Lake, pretty badly at WF-W).     

[David Stamm]

I have a question for the group.  What exactly constitutes a "dog track?"  

Why don't you come on out to Southern Cal and I'll show you many, many examples that fit the bill.

[TEPaul]

"I have a question for the group.  What exactly constitutes a "dog track?" 

Rick Sides:

And I can give you an answer with some authority of what constitutes a "dog track."

It is almost always a dirt oval race track where greyhounds run races of generally 3/8th of a mile even though some are longer and some shorter.

I should know because my dad owned some greyhounds and one is considered to be arguably the greatest greyhound ever. He set the world record in the 3/8th mile. His career did not last long but his record was something like 31 wins in 33 races and then he went to stud and that is why when my father died I inherited over 300 greyhounds all of which I was directed by my father to get adopted. That I did and it took my about six years. If I never see another greyhound again it wouldn't be too soon.

[Rick Sides]

Good post Tom.  The only thing I know about dog tracks was my Uncle Lou screaming at dogs because he was losing money in Fort Meyers Fla!

[Jud_T]

Lou,

There's a spot for you writing course reviews for one of a dozen golf publications...

[JLahrman]

You lot are mixing metaphors.  Dog track has to be flat - too flat.  Goat track has to be hilly, too hilly.  Get its straight!

We shouldn't be too hard on these ma n' pa places (or in some cases what should be ma n' pa places).  A lot of good times are had at these courses and some damn good players come from them.  Besides, for what these places normally charge it would be churlish to complain.  If you don't like the place, don't play there, but please lest not start a campaign to C&C and Doak everything.  

Ciao

I would agree with your dog track/goat run distinction.  However, topography might be the biggest difference.

There is no reason to be hard on these courses - they maintain a valuable place in the golf world.  They are:
- Affordable
- Casual
- A great place for beginners to learn the game
- A great place for any golfer to have a fun round, if you don't take your golf too seriously
- Likely to have great deals on pitchers of beer and grilled cheese sandwiches

[Mike Hendren]

I'm reminded of my father's standard line when someone complained about the golf course:  "It's a better golf course than I am golfer."

Bogey

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