North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor

[George_Bahto]

North Shore CC on Long Island is an interesting story - one I was involved with a few years ago.

I’m not sure whether it was one of Tom Doak’s “henchmen” (probably Hepner  ) or Gil who called me and told me I might want to go look at North Shore’s greens because “it looks a lot like it was built by “one of your guys”

Their 12th, was a beautiful version of a Double Plateau green and right across the cartpath from #12 was the 16th, another version of double plateau. Two good ones on the same course. Interesting

Riding around the course, there was pretty neat version of an Eden complete with a deep ravine between tee and green (there was a bunker ON and ALONG the back of the green so members wouldn’t go over.

There was any number of typical green complexes that were very Raynor-like; a very nice Alps/Punchbowl and a version of the 6th at Garden City (looks like a pork chop) as well as others.

What little is known of early club history, it seems A.W. Tillinghast superimposed a 9 hole layout over the existing Glenwood Country Club, recently purchased by a social club in New York known then as the Harmonie Club.  The Glenwood course, which had been opened for less than a year, apparently proved to be a disappointment to the membership, and though it appears Tillinghast routed a full 18 holes, financial constraints limited initial construction to half the layout.

During this period, Seth Raynor was busy in the area constructing Creek, Brookville, and Oakland C.C., and though he has never been listed the architect of record, an examination of the spectacular green complexes at North Shore are replete with textbook examples of his early work.  The flow of the course however, in particular the front nine, does not appear to be completely attributable to Raynor, though it appears that he may have elected to divide and reroute portions of Tillinghast's original nine between the front and back.  Oddly enough, North Shore possesses back to back par 3's (9th and 10th) and par 5's (3rd and 4th), an extreme departure from Raynor's other courses - though he is almost certainly responsible for all 18 greens.

Best if all there is one of the most literal versions of a Road hole green one might find anywhere, although the representative pot bunker is a quite large and off to the left, leaving a comfortable opening to the green. The rise to the green is outstanding.

Hole 9 is a 200-yard (small green) version of a Redan but the tee was moved (long ago) from the “proper” 45 degree angle to virtually a straight-in line of play. This is somewhat understandable in this case because the green is way too narrow to accept a shot from that angle and fall off to the frontal, Redan bunker drops down to a hellish depth (now a two-stage bunker, one deeper than the other). This, to me is a Tillie version of a Redan.

Rand Jerris, the curator of the Golf House museum, who knows Tillinghast’s work well, came out to the course at a later day and could hardly pin down anything looking like his work.

We did find the remnants of an abandoned green right smack in the 4th fairway as well as a few other “lost” greens sites.

I worked there for awhile but was “replace” by Ron Forse who went on to do a fine job “restoring” the course.

Tillinghast - Raynor?  If you get a chance check it and judge - it’s a very nice layout with very interesting greens.
 

[Chris_Blakely]

George,

Who designed the course orginally?  I did not think it was Raynor or Tillie?

Chris

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Eden





14th  Double Plateau

[George_Bahto]

Chris. I don't know. Their earlier records are slim.

I have this note in the NS file:

"info from Robert White article Sept 1918 - American Golfer: (Tillinghast/White work began Feb 1915 - all greens open for play May 13, 1916)"

[George_Bahto]

About a year or so after my initial visit I got a call from the, then super, Rich Tacconelli, asking me if I could come over and help persuade the club from plowing under one of the greens that had these large mounds on their surface - yep, the 14th! 

One of the reasons was that many members “couldn’t get the ball to stop on the back plateau” ..... or at least, it was too difficult to do that.

Well, the green was saved, of course.

[JNagle]

North Shore has always been a mystery.  Is it Raynor, Tillinghast, White .......?  What is interesting is that if one visits White's work at Longue Vue (outside Pittsburgh) and Northampton C.C. (Easton) you will find similar, although not nearly as good, protoype holes seen at North Shore.  Double Plateau greens, Eden and Redan (reverse) holes.  The Road hole at NSCC was the inspiration for our work on the 9th at Raynor's Metairie C.C.  NS's Road Hole is amazing.

[TEPaul]

My God, to just hear that North Shore CC is in real trouble and to also think it is so close to where I grew up and even closer to where my father and stepmother lived and to think I have never seen that course and to look at those amazing photos now of such amazing architecture-----well, it sort of makes me sick to think it might become an NLE! I sure do hope it survives. That is some pretty value real estate these days unfortunately and THAT is probably the primary problem with some of these interesting old golf courses particularly around the New York metropolitan area!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom

North Shore has been saved. You must have missed this:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39434.msg826233/topicseen/

[Tom MacWood]

North Shore does have an interesting history. In 1911 a group of Crescent Athletic Club (Brooklyn) members bought the Judge Townsend Scudder estate (190 acres). Scudder was a former Supreme Court Justice. This was the Glenwood Club. Devereux Emmet & George Hubbell laid out an 18-hole course, which was ready for play in the summer of 1912. It was considered one of the best links on LI at the time.

Glenwood ran into financial problems in 1914 and was sold to the Harmonie Club, which eventually changed its name to North Shore. In 1915 Robert White completely redesigned the course though he did keep five holes from the Emmet-Hubbell course. I believe he remained at the club for a number of years as the pro/greenkeeper.

I suspect the holes attributed to Raynor are in actuality Emmet's. In fact in a 1912 article on the course Emmet said the NGLA was a major influence on the design, although he did not specifically mention any famous facsimiles.

I have not found any mention Tilly being involved at any time, and the course is not included in his advertised list of designs published in the mid-20s. I've found no mention of Raynor either. I believe the bulk of the credit should go to White.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Your version is contrary to MGA's historian's version that I have:

"... The original golf course proved inadequte for North Shore's membership. And so a relatively young (architectuarally speaking) A.W. Tillinghast was engaged in September 1915 to revise the original layout. Which he did, retaining only 5 holes of the original 18, including the present 8th, which was among the original 9. It is said, though, that 1000 trees were were felled to give the 16th its dogleg configuration. Tillinghast's fee,construction included, amounted to $75,000...."

[Tom MacWood]

Steve
I've read that version too, but I've never found any contemporaneous mention of Tilly being involved. White's involvement is well doucumented, including an article he wrote about the project in 1918. Perhaps I missed it, but I don't believe White mentions Tilly in that article. In his article White said he began construction in February 1915, seven months before the MGA historian said Tilly was engaged.

What do you make of the fact Tilly did not list the course as one of his designs or redesigns?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom MacWood,

Perhaps you should send the White article to the MGA historian,Dr. Bill Quirin, who wrote the book- "The Clubs of the MGA." That book was written in the 1980s pre-internet. A revision seems to be in order but that would be a massive undertaking.

Perhaps Tillie worked with White. I don't know why he didn't list this course on his ads.

The new owner of North Shore might like to see that article too. He thought he was getting a Tillinghast.

[Mike Erdmann]

Here are a few more photos of some of the template holes at North Shore, taken in late May of this year.

Approach to the Road Hole 3rd.


3rd from behind.  Deep bunkers, though hard to see in this photo, function as the 'road'.


Redan 9th


14th is almost a hybrid Biarritz/Double Plateau

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom MacWood

My understanding is that White was the Greenkeeper at Ravisloe and Shawnee. White was hired by Tillinghast at Shawnee to oversee construction of the redesigned course in 1912 and became the Greenkeeper there.  He also oversaw construction at North Shore at Tilly's request and later became the head pro there. Did not the American Golfer article by White state this:

"...Each green was built from a model carefully made of plastiscene."

I suggest that Tilly made these models as I understand that was his practice at the time since he did not oversee day to day construction of the courses he designed. Did White say he made those models?

If you come and visit the NY Historical Society archives, you will find the minutes of The Harmonie Club which I understand will reveal the hiring of Tilly to design the course. Perhaps that's where Dr. Bill Quirin came to write as I referenced above. How else would he know anything about Tilly's fee? Dr. Quirin is based in NY. I guess he had access to the records of The Harmonie Club.Not everything in the world is on in the internet via old magazine articles and newspapers.

[TEPaul]

"This was the Glenwood Club. Devereux Emmet & George Hubbell laid out an 18-hole course, which was ready for play in the summer of 1912. It was considered one of the best links on LI at the time.

Glenwood ran into financial problems in 1914 and was sold to the Harmonie Club, which eventually changed its name to North Shore. In 1915 Robert White completely redesigned the course though he did keep five holes from the Emmet-Hubbell course. I believe he remained at the club for a number of years as the pro/greenkeeper.

I suspect the holes attributed to Raynor are in actuality Emmet's. In fact in a 1912 article on the course Emmet said the NGLA was a major influence on the design, although he did not specifically mention any famous facsimiles."



Tom MacWood:

If that is in fact the architectural beginning of North Shore GC, and I have no reason at all to believe it wasn't, that would pretty much take Seth Raynor out of the running as the original architect of that golf course because the fact is in 1912 Raynor had done nothing on his own at that time. I think the first course Raynor did or that was attributed to him was Westhampton but I seem to recall that you think HH Barker actually designed Westhampton.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
All the evidence I've seen (and there is considerable evidence) points to Emmet - White. Maybe there is other evidence out there somewhere, but I've not seen anything to suggest Raynor and/or Tilly was ever involved at North Shore.

Here is a photo of the 10th hole in 1919 - note the style of the bunker.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom Mac Wood,

No reponse to my post above TEP's?


Have you examined the records of The Harmonie Club among the "considerable evidence" you've seen?

[Tom MacWood]

Steve
I'll respond to your post later. Are those the same records where the September 1915 date for Tilly's hiring comes from? Here is link to the Robert White article.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1918/ag205g.pdf

[Chris_Blakely]

Tom Macwood's historical account confrims what I have found and read about North Shore - that it was Emmet's original Glenwood course.  Emmet even wrote an article on the Glenwood course.

Chris

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood

My understanding is that White was the Greenkeeper at Ravisloe and Shawnee. White was hired by Tillinghast at Shawnee to oversee construction of the redesigned course in 1912 and became the Greenkeeper there.  He also oversaw construction at North Shore at Tilly's request and later became the head pro there. Did not the American Golfer article by White state this:

"...Each green was built from a model carefully made of plastiscene."

I suggest that Tilly made these models as I understand that was his practice at the time since he did not oversee day to day construction of the courses he designed. Did White say he made those models?

If you come and visit the NY Historical Society archives, you will find the minutes of The Harmonie Club which I understand will reveal the hiring of Tilly to design the course. Perhaps that's where Dr. Bill Quirin came to write as I referenced above. How else would he know anything about Tilly's fee? Dr. Quirin is based in NY. I guess he had access to the records of The Harmonie Club.Not everything in the world is on in the internet via old magazine articles and newspapers.

Steve
I have not read The Harmonie Club's records. The club was formed in 1852 and I wonder what if any information they have on the formation of North Shore. They purchased the property in March 1914, and by June (if not earlier) a spinoff organization was formed from some of the members called the North Shore Country Club. Tilly and/or White would have been hired by North Shore CC. In February 1915 construction began on the redesign according to Robert White. Dr. Quirin clames Tilly was hired in September 1915 to redesign the course....a redesign Tilly never took credit for, nor was ever credited in newspapers or magazines. Does that make sense to you? While you speculation is interesting I have not seen evidence of his involvement.

By the way Robert White was hired by Shawnee in 1913 (the course opened in 1911) to make some changes, after he had been involved in major changes at Ravisloe with William Watson and Aleck Brauer. Are you certain Tilly was involved in the Shawnee changes in 1913?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The Harmonie Club records DO contain the Minutes of the Board of Governors of the North Shore Country Club.  The Country Club was established March 13, 1914 for the benefit of the Harmonie Club members and its Board of Governors was composed of Harmonie Club officers. The minutes include budget, expenses, renovation plans, and description of the grounds.  They are on microfilm or are in a binder in the archives at the the NY Historical Society:

http://dlib.nyu.edu/findingaids/html/nyhs/harmonie.html

I have not seen them personally but where else would Quirin have obtained info about the cost and Tillinghast. Personally, I think Quirin got his dates confused as to when Tilly became involved at NS. I think September 1914 would be more accurate,thus giving him time to build the plasticine models of the greens for White to use the following year when construction started. Only a personal visit to peruse the records will reveal whether this is a discrepancy or not.

As to Shawnee, see Phil Young's post in my prior thread on my trip to the Poconos:

"A bit of Shawnee history...

It opened for play on May 27th, 1911 to a par of 70 at 6,011 yards. By the fall it was already being fiddled with by Tilly and less than a year later it had been lengthened by 100 yards. Within 4 years of its opening it will have been re-routed with a number of new hazards, both bunkers and moundings, and it would now play to more than 6,500 yards in length from its championship tees."

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40802.0/

More to follow when I have some time.

[Tom MacWood]

Your version is contrary to MGA's historian's version that I have:

"... The original golf course proved inadequte for North Shore's membership. And so a relatively young (architectuarally speaking) A.W. Tillinghast was engaged in September 1915 to revise the original layout. Which he did, retaining only 5 holes of the original 18, including the present 8th, which was among the original 9. It is said, though, that 1000 trees were were felled to give the 16th its dogleg configuration. Tillinghast's fee,construction included, amounted to $75,000...."

Steve
If you could please include what Dr. Quirin wrote before and after this excerpt - I don't want to take his comments out of context. For example what does he say about Emmet and White's involvement?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom MacWood

Dr. Quirin did not mention Emmett at all. The first few paragraphs dealt with the the hisory of The Harmonie Club,the formation of North Shore CC and its acquisition of Glenwood CC which opened in 1912. He quoted extensively Emil Goldmark,the President of Harmonie, as he apparently had access to the minutes of the club.

The only mention of White was that he was the club's first professional, having served in 1914 and 1915. Quirin noted that White went on to become one of the driving forces behind the orginization of the PGA.

Remember that Quirin's book is "The Clubs of the MGA" and not "The Architectural History of the Clubs of the MGA."

NB: I just corrected this post where I earlier referred to Glenwood as Glen Head. They are distinct entities. Glen Head, an Emmett design, opened for play in 1924. Glenwood(1912) was also an Emmett design.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
All the evidence I've seen (and there is considerable evidence) points to Emmet - White. Maybe there is other evidence out there somewhere, but I've not seen anything to suggest Raynor and/or Tilly was ever involved at North Shore."


Tom MacWood:

I really don't know about any of this even if I grew up very close to the North Shore CC.

It seems like Emmet (and Hubbell ?) designed the original Glenwood golf course which the North Shore CC took over and vastly redesigned. If the course was vastly redesigned and Emmet was not involved in that redesign I suppose one should not really call the course an Emmet.

However, if that is the case, the question seems to be who massively redesigned the former Glenwood course into the North Shore CC course?

Did Tillinghast do it as the club and Bill Quirin seem to say or did White do it as you seem to say (or even Emmet/White as you also seem to say)?

I really don't know but those club minutes and records referred to above might shed some light on the answers.

Reading that LA84 article about White's involvement at North Shore it appears to me he may've been acting more as a constructor/greenskeeper than as a golf course architect. Sometimes those sort of distinctions seem to get lost or misunderstood by some of us on this website.

As to why Tillinghast never listed or mentioned doing North Shore, I have no idea why that would be. Nevertheless, and despite the fact he didn't list it or you don't think he did that may not trump the fact that Tillinghast was involved there somehow at that time. To think the club came up with a Tillinghast attribution completely out-of-blue or out of whole cloth seems pretty strange and seems pretty unlikely to me, even if they actually did that somehow it certainly would not be the first time a golf club did that with some architect.

But I would say this about that kind of thing----eg if something can be found in the North Shore minutes and club records from around the 1915 timeframe definitely mentioning some significant architectural work being done on that course by Tillinghast we can all probably count on it being fact! 

[Tom MacWood]

Here is chronology of article and events surrounding Glenwood, North Shore, Emmet and White: