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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #850 on: May 19, 2010, 09:00:08 AM »
BTW,

Using the "how does the design look different" standard is MOST easily applied to Raynor, among all architects, isn't it?  If it was Tillie, whose style really did vary (in part because of his national scope and using different contractors (IMHO) we couldn't conclude as much.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #851 on: May 19, 2010, 09:06:06 AM »

Likewise its unlikely you will find anything written by CBM either, he rarely if ever mentioned projects where he just advised.


Hallelujah, Tom MacWood....it's about time you acknowledged that fact.   

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #852 on: May 19, 2010, 10:16:05 AM »
"TePaul,
Its sort of hard to have a conspiracy to promote the legend of Seth Raynor when we have a documented contract for design and the course looks like a Seth Raynor course."


Jeffrey:

Is it? Tell that to MacWood and Moriarty about Merion. We have reams of documented club administrative records explaining that Wilson and committee created Merion East but that didn't seem to stop those two from accusing us and the club of some kind of conspiracy to promote the legend of Hugh Wilson.




"It seems that if White had a design influence, the course would look less like a Raynor and not more."


Good point. It also seems if Macdonald (Whigam) had a great deal of design influence at Merion East it would've looked more like NGLA or the Macdonald/Raynor style but in fact it really didn't and doesn't.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #853 on: May 19, 2010, 10:41:34 AM »
TePaul,

At Merion, there weren't a lot of signed contracts.  None for CBM of course, and even Barker seemed to come out for one day on a per diem basis before the project began.  Just a few years later, things at NS were a lot more formal, with agreements in place for design, pro/greenskeeper, etc., which IMHO should make things a lot more clear than they were at the home made/amateur sportsman era, even if the proceedings were fairly well documented.

That said, when someone likes to argue, it is always the undocumented and the unclear that get the focus.  As lawyers like to say, when the facts are on your side, pound the facts, when the law is on your side, pound the law, and when neither are on your side, pound the table!

Watching the hockey games last night I heard an oft repeated statement by the announcers that players need to keep moving their feet or they get penalties for basically being a bit lazy.  At this point, I think TMac has stopped moving his feet. If I were referee of this thread, TMac would get two minutes in the box!

While he is good at unearthing documents, he has stopped doing that, in essence, hooking on to one or two unclear documents to make a point, rather than finding any good info to make his point, or visiting the course to see what is really there.  There are logistical reasons for that, but I don't think he cares enough about the subject (neither do we) to really pursue it in a correct way, like Mark Hissey did in unearthing new documents from the archives that for whatever reason, never were looked at in attributing the course.  Which is what makes the continuing argument ridiculous on all our parts.    This thread was great in unearthing the real designer of NS to correct past misconceptions, and the historical work was done the correct way, which somehow, hasn't made a difference in how we interact.  

Going back to the lawywer analogy, I look at most of what TMac has presented here as deflecting tactics.  It is true that White had previous and later experience in design, but that was elsewhere.  It is true that he also spent a lot of time researching turf and agronomy leading him to be involved in construction a lot.  It is true that there are some attribution issues at other courses.  My point is that TMac is using flaws and facts at other places to make an argument specifically for NS and considering that as a logical, unemotional approach, while we are all supposedly emotionally attached to legends.  So, he ignores (except for one post, which he seems to forget) the primary data such as contracts that show who did what at NS, and will likely continue to argue, because there can be endless deflection based on each new sentence found to parse.

So, we can't win unless Tom Doak blows the place up, in which case, we can then attribut the new course to him.........although TMac will probably still claim it should be an Emmet design because there may be one blade of grass untouched somewhere.....sometimes, you can just want to cut the beef to thin, and I think this is a case of that.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 10:48:30 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #854 on: May 19, 2010, 08:29:19 PM »
Mike
Did you see post #835? The second article from 7/26/1915 says: "The scheme of the course as planned by the golf committee and Mr. White..."

Its unlikely you will find anything written by Raynor acknowledging White. Raynor did not write. Likewise its unlikely you will find anything written by CBM either, he rarely if ever mentioned projects where he just advised. The most likely scenerio would be White acknowledging the other two. From the very beginning, for whatever reason, White seems to be the star of the show at North Shore. He is mentioned prominently in just about all the contemporaneous articles.



No I did not, but now I have and without reading every post and now leaving for the day, I would say you have a valid argument that White should get some credit - either design or development, not sure. Those two articles from Joe, cast it in a different light for me. Not sure if they are new to others. Clearly he was more than the club pro and/or greenskeeper.

The fact that he seemed to be fired from the club should be taken into consideration - honestly not sure how as it was a different era and the club nor White probably wanted too much said about it.

I think the supposed firing may be a mischaracterization. If I remember from the minutes after parting ways they were considering keeping him on as a consultant. I'd don't think they would considered that if he had been fired.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #855 on: May 19, 2010, 08:32:23 PM »

TMac,

Again, I think I understand where you are coming from, even if you are a stubborn army of one in the battle over attribution.  But, if you want to wage the war, I suggest you come up with some other evidence than newspaper quotes, like specific differences in bunker styles, hole templates, etc., that are different from what Raynor nomally did in a big way.  That would better prove some design influence  by White, but I think we have gone as far as we can in parsing words in the minutes and newspaper articles we have already seen, no?

The strongest evidence of a collaboration comes from the minutes, not the newspaper articles.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #856 on: May 19, 2010, 08:39:10 PM »

Likewise its unlikely you will find anything written by CBM either, he rarely if ever mentioned projects where he just advised.


Hallelujah, Tom MacWood....it's about time you acknowledged that fact.   

Huh? I've always made that point based on what he did and didn't mention in his book, siting courses like Shinnecock, Greenwich, East Lake, Women's National and Merion are no shows. CBM was a lot more active than he took credit for in his book.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #857 on: May 19, 2010, 09:08:34 PM »

Watching the hockey games last night I heard an oft repeated statement by the announcers that players need to keep moving their feet or they get penalties for basically being a bit lazy.  At this point, I think TMac has stopped moving his feet. If I were referee of this thread, TMac would get two minutes in the box!

My feet are moving fine, and so is my mind. This post is a bit bizarre I must say. Maybe you are upset because lately I mostly ignore your posts because you have been wrong so often for so long. If there was prize for misinformation and not getting the facts straight you would have won it a long time ago. There was time when I would correct you, and correct you, and correct you....but fatigue set in and now I ignore.

While he is good at unearthing documents, he has stopped doing that, in essence, hooking on to one or two unclear documents to make a point, rather than finding any good info to make his point, or visiting the course to see what is really there.  There are logistical reasons for that, but I don't think he cares enough about the subject (neither do we) to really pursue it in a correct way, like Mark Hissey did in unearthing new documents from the archives that for whatever reason, never were looked at in attributing the course.  Which is what makes the continuing argument ridiculous on all our parts.    This thread was great in unearthing the real designer of NS to correct past misconceptions, and the historical work was done the correct way, which somehow, hasn't made a difference in how we interact.  

I'm hooking on to the same documents that the club has hooked on to, and I don't recall you criticizing the club for giving co-design credit to CBM (although I could be wrong because I don't read many of your posts). There is more support for White's involvement (including laying out the course with Raynor) in those documents than there is for CBM. That being said there is more than enough evidence IMO to support all three's involvement.


Going back to the lawywer analogy, I look at most of what TMac has presented here as deflecting tactics.  It is true that White had previous and later experience in design, but that was elsewhere.  It is true that he also spent a lot of time researching turf and agronomy leading him to be involved in construction a lot.  It is true that there are some attribution issues at other courses.  My point is that TMac is using flaws and facts at other places to make an argument specifically for NS and considering that as a logical, unemotional approach, while we are all supposedly emotionally attached to legends.  So, he ignores (except for one post, which he seems to forget) the primary data such as contracts that show who did what at NS, and will likely continue to argue, because there can be endless deflection based on each new sentence found to parse.

Deflecting tactics? I think you are watching too much Perry Mason in your down time.

So, we can't win unless Tom Doak blows the place up, in which case, we can then attribut the new course to him.........although TMac will probably still claim it should be an Emmet design because there may be one blade of grass untouched somewhere.....sometimes, you can just want to cut the beef to thin, and I think this is a case of that.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 09:11:28 PM by Tom MacWood »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #858 on: May 19, 2010, 09:11:21 PM »
Breaking news...

Every golf course construction project,new or renovation or restoration, is a "collaboration" between the developer/owner or members and the architect/designer and the project architect/course superintendent/golf professional and the workers who built the course. The question remains as to credit. Here, Raynor was hired to design,White was hired to supervise construction and was the golf professional,the Greens Committee oversaw them both and the club thanked them all and mentioned MacDonald for good measure.

No doubt White, MacDonald and the members of the Greens Commmittee made "suggestions" to Raynor. What they were and if they were implemented, we'll never know. As Tom MacWood so aptly stated above in #   352:

Here is the timeline Steve gave us from his transcription of the club records, and based on what he has given it seems indisputable that Raynor was hired to design the golf course, and among White's primary responsibilities was the superintending the construction of the golf course. That is very clear to me.

What isn't so clear is how the process actually unfolded.



All we know is that "template holes" were used in the design- a trademark of MacDonald courses and the contemporary and  later Raynor courses.

I prefer Jeff Brauer's analysis above and I'm sticking with the designation given by the new owner- Raynor/MacDonald.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 09:15:12 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #859 on: May 19, 2010, 09:15:16 PM »
Breaking news...

Every golf course construction project,new or renovation or restoration, is a "collaboration" between the developer/owner or members and the architect/designer and the project architect/course superintendent/golf professional and the workers who built the course. The question remains as to credit. Here, Raynor was hired to design,White was hired to supervise construction and was the golf professional,the Greens Committee oversaw them both and the club thanked them all and mentioned MacDonald for good measure.

No doubt White, MacDonald and the members of the Greens Commmittee made "suggestions" to Raynor. What they were and if they were implemented, we'll never know.  All we know is that "template holes" were used in the design- a trademark of MacDonald courses and the contemporary and  later Raynor courses.

I prefer Jeff Brauer's analysis above and I'm sticking with the designation given by the new owner- Raynor/MacDonald.

Steve
The difference here is the construction man was actively involved in routing the golf course. This is based on the club minutes and a contemporaneous newspaper report. If you don't think routing is important that is you prerogative. I think it is a vitally important aspect of golf design.

And as it turned out your paraphrasing of the minutes did not always tell the complete story.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 09:22:52 PM by Tom MacWood »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #860 on: May 19, 2010, 09:21:17 PM »
Oh my God, Now T Mac has White "routing" North Shore...

Steve, Jeff, Pat and TEP, will you PLEASE stop arguing with this guy?????

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #861 on: May 19, 2010, 09:25:44 PM »
Oh my God, Now T Mac has White "routing" North Shore...

Steve, Jeff, Pat and TEP, will you PLEASE stop arguing with this guy?????

"The matter has received the careful attention of your Greens Committee, who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation of our professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagrams in the office of the Harmonie Club and which in the opinion of experts should develop into as good a course as could be found in any part of the United States."

Bill
If they weren't routing the golf course what were they doing?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #862 on: May 19, 2010, 09:32:45 PM »
Tom MacW

We'll never know the extent to which White participated in the routing unless White himself wrote about it or if his suggestions were followed by Raynor. This is not Sebonack where a book was written about its development and construction.

We'll never know the contents of Raynor's letter as referenced in the minutes of 2/29/16 as Mark Hissey could not find it. Also, for the same reason, we'll never see the "diagram" that was in the office of The Harmonie Club as referenced in the minutes of 3/15/16.

We do have the placemat of the routing that was posted in the 1917 thread but it is unsigned and undated.

My position has not changed. I don't think the club's position will change either.

Next case.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #863 on: May 19, 2010, 10:14:11 PM »
TMac,

Well, your logic and deduction are right on for once! I just got Perry Mason Season 5, Volume 1 from Amazon.com today, so my collection is complete!

As to calling me bizarre and constantly wrong, I have to say that despite some pot shots in your direction, I am a bigger supporter among your five arguers than anyone else.  I can see your side of the debate, even in terms I can endorse:

NS had the right to credit whoever they thought designed their course (Oddly, they picked Tillie, but thats moot now)
The club secretary was presumably an intelligent man.  Despite a few grammatical flaws, we have to presume he meant to credit all three for the routing that hung on the Harmony Club wall in 1915.  Therefore, White must have had something to do with the routing, even if there is a pesky little reference to him being the greens expert, etc.  The words LAID OUT THE GOLF COURSE  trump all, in your opinion.

On the other side, we have more formal documents like contracts, the actual finished product, etc.  As stated, we all believe White was deeply involved and thus, may have had some input on the final design and/or project quality.

Okay, we have all agreed on that point, but staked out positions based on our relative experience, mine in being involved in over 60 new designs and major renovations and yours in......?

Please explain how you are still "moving your feet?" (in the sense of providing any new information)  And please tell us if you believe parsing words really constitutes historical research or just arguing?  I will freely admit it takes two or more to tango, and I am not pinning the blame solely on you for this debacle.

For the record, I do think its more likely that Raynor routed and White had some input on the features, but I guess there is no reason (and no record of) White couldn't have toddled over to Raynor's office and put some time in the routing, too.  It could all have happened just the way you envision.  Its just that I don't think your sources necessarily prove it beyond doubt.

For the last few pages, I have simply realized the debate can't be settled, have said so, and tried to post some middle ground ideas (like the above) that might end this as amicably as possible.  I do this because that is where I hope this goes, or mercifully, doesn't go.  I can't speak for others, but if I admit (again) that White may possibly have had something to do with the design at NS, can this end? 

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #864 on: May 19, 2010, 10:36:15 PM »
Oh my God, Now T Mac has White "routing" North Shore...

Steve, Jeff, Pat and TEP, will you PLEASE stop arguing with this guy?????

"The matter has received the careful attention of your Greens Committee, who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation[/size] of our professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagrams in the office of the Harmonie Club and which in the opinion of experts should develop into as good a course as could be found in any part of the United States."

Tom, you can't analyze the above quote in a vacuum, insulated and isolated from all others, you have to include the other descriptiive quotes that provide attribution for each discipline.

The word "cooperation" doesn't connote or convey co-authorship to Robert White.
You keep trying to force that interpretation when it simply doesn't exist.

North Shore has some very steep slopes.
If Raynor routed the course, would he not consult with Robert White to inquire as to whether or not grass would grow on those steep slopes.
If Robert White indicated that his assessment indicated that those steep slopes could tolerate grass, would White not be deemed to have COOPERATED with Raynor ?
Would that make him an equal or even a participant in the routing, hole and feature designs ?  I think not.

In another excerpt, North Shore identified their architect, Raynor, and, they identified Robert White's role, that of "Greens Expert"

I think it's fairly clear, that absent additional information, White's role was confined to agronomy and not to GCA.

While I admire your discoveries, I can't make the quantum leaps of faith that you make when you draw your conclusions.


Bill
If they weren't routing the golf course what were they doing?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 08:04:15 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #865 on: May 20, 2010, 12:14:32 AM »
Pat,

TMac didn't make these discoveries, did he (he did post a few articles, I think, but not those minutes)

As to how he can pick one in a vacuum that supports his agenda, well, its what he does!  Has he ever answered a question from any of us regarding other points of evidence, or does he just keep returning to his?

Hey, in truth, he is getting much better than he was when he argued that train schedules proved that Barker designed Merion!  We all agree White was involved in the final product somehow, unlike Merion, where Barker's one day visit on behalf of the developer a year before the land was finalized somehow in his mind transformed into final design.  He never explained that one beyond saying "it seems pretty clear what happened" which is also a phrase he uttered in this discussion.

Like I say, its clear White was instrumental to the success of the project.  How much, we can never know, nor does it really make a difference to most.  NS is a nice course with a storied past and seemingly bright future.  What else really matters?

Bill was right, its time to stop arguing with him.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #866 on: May 20, 2010, 06:03:33 AM »
Tom MacW

We'll never know the extent to which White participated in the routing unless White himself wrote about it or if his suggestions were followed by Raynor. This is not Sebonack where a book was written about its development and construction.

We'll never know the contents of Raynor's letter as referenced in the minutes of 2/29/16 as Mark Hissey could not find it. Also, for the same reason, we'll never see the "diagram" that was in the office of The Harmonie Club as referenced in the minutes of 3/15/16.

We do have the placemat of the routing that was posted in the 1917 thread but it is unsigned and undated.

My position has not changed. I don't think the club's position will change either.

Next case.


Steve
We don't know to what extent Raynor participated in the routing of the course either. And to what extent did CBM participate in the routing or the design process? You're willing to give him co-design credit, you must have a pretty good idea. It appears to me you have moving standard when it comes to evaluating who deserves credit and who does not.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #867 on: May 20, 2010, 06:10:00 AM »
Oh my God, Now T Mac has White "routing" North Shore...

Steve, Jeff, Pat and TEP, will you PLEASE stop arguing with this guy?????

"The matter has received the careful attention of your Greens Committee, who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent [size=20cooperation[/size] of our professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagrams in the office of the Harmonie Club and which in the opinion of experts should develop into as good a course as could be found in any part of the United States."

Tom, you can't analyze the above quote in a vacuum, insulated and isolated from all others, you have to include the other descriptiive quotes that provide attribution for each discipline.

The word "cooperation" doesn't connote or convey co-authorship to Robert White.
You keep trying to force that interpretation when it simply doesn't exist.

North Shore has some very steep slopes.
If Raynor routed the course, would he not consult with Robert White to inquire as to whether or not grass would grow on those steep slopes.
If Robert White indicated that his assessment indicated that those steep slopes could tolerate grass, would White not be deemed to have COOPERATED with Raynor ?
Would that make him an equal or even a participant in the routing, hole and feature designs ?  I think not.

In another excerpt, North Shore identified their architect, Raynor, and, they identified Robert White's role, that of "Greens Expert"

I think it's fairly clear, that absent additional information, White's role was confined to agronomy and not to GCA.

While I admire your discoveries, I can't make the quantum leaps of faith that you make when you draw your conclusions.


Bill
If they weren't routing the golf course what were they doing?

I'm not evaluating this quote in vacuum. You have the timing of the quote. You've got the two other quotes from the minutes assigning credit to White along with Raynor & CBM - equal credit to the three. You have White laying out another course on Long Island a few months earlier. You have this project being quite possibly Raynor's first design effort. You have the newspaper article claiming the scheme of the course was planned by White and the committee. The only reason you and others are not giving White some design credit is because you don't want to give me credit. Lets be honest.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 06:12:11 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #868 on: May 20, 2010, 07:20:37 AM »

The only reason you and others are not giving White some design credit is because you don't want to give me credit. Lets be honest.


Darn...

I was kinda hoping there was a "New York Syndrome" protecting local myths in competitition with the "Philly Syndrome" you identified some years back.

Only seems fair....  ;)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #869 on: May 20, 2010, 08:01:36 AM »
TMac,

I'll be fair - to an extent our past history and my disagreement with your contention that Barker routed Merion (and the circumstantial occurrences you used, and the important things I think you ignored) has colored my view of your contentions here, but only partially.

I appreciate your post above.  Its really the first time you have laid out all the circumstances you consider, and when put in one place, they are more compelling than repeating one quote over and over, i.e. pounding the table.

But there is still the very real historical research methodology question of whether you rely on too many circumstantial things to draw your conclusions (ie. things like White's history with a few designs at clubs he worked for previously (cincy, louisville) and a later career in gca and ASGCA (admitted in his retirement, 12 years after his last design) and IMHO ignoring some basics like the contracts each man served under.  Granted, you main contention is from the club minutes, which should make TePaul happy, and yet it doesn't.

I also have what you might call bias towards credting the gca with the contract and thus legal responsibility for the design, but recognize that the profession was less professional, and attribution in those days probably not as important, so I know I need to factor those things in. As mentioned, only NS circa 1915 had the right to attribute the course, and if you read those minutes a certain way they split the credit.  (of course, if you read them a different way.....)

So to me, its not personal with you.  I occaisionally say a few things that are over the top about you, but again, I do appreciate your interest in gca history and the snippets you provide.  In fact, I will be in Ohio this weekend, and if you want to come to Toledo, and join me at Tony Packo's, I'll buy you lunch and we will have a laugh. Or, I'll even meet you halfway down like in Fostoria or some such and we will eat or drink somewhere else.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #870 on: May 20, 2010, 08:47:03 AM »

Bill

If they weren't routing the golf course what were they doing?



Tom, North Shore told you what they were doing, White was the "Greens Expert" the consulting agronomist.


I'm not evaluating this quote in vacuum. You have the timing of the quote. You've got the two other quotes from the minutes assigning credit to White along with Raynor & CBM - equal credit to the three.

That's where you're way off base, North Shore DIDN"T give equal credit to those three for being the architect.
They specifically gave Raynor credit for the architecture and the others credit for their respective fields/areas of contribution.

You keep insisting that the three formed a triumvirate, architecturally responsible for designing the golf course when nothing could be further from the truth


You have White laying out another course on Long Island a few months earlier.

That's irrelevant to the issues at North Shore.


You have this project being quite possibly Raynor's first design effort.

Then why did North Shore call him America's leading  Golf Course Architect ?


You have the newspaper article claiming the scheme of the course was planned by White and the committee.

What does that mean ?
And, why was Raynor excluded ?
Did they just lease his name, like Trump ?


The only reason you and others are not giving White some design credit is because you don't want to give me credit.

That's absolutely untrue.
I've applauded your research efforts on numerous occassions.
I disagree with some of the conclusions you draw, but, I want to see you get credit where credit is due.


Lets be honest.

I think it's safe to say that I'm known for my candor. ;D

[/quote]

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #871 on: May 20, 2010, 11:59:56 AM »
Tom,

"The only reason you and others are not giving White some design credit is because you don't want to give me credit. Lets be honest..."

And you referred to comments from myself and Jeff as bizarre...

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #872 on: May 21, 2010, 02:27:42 PM »
"The only reason you and others are not giving White some design credit is because you don't want to give me credit. Lets be honest."


That might be the most accurate statement Tom MacWood has ever offered on here to explain what his MO is all about on threads that involve subjects such as Barker (Macdonald & Whigam) designing Merion East, Willie Campbell designing Myopia and Robert White designing North Shore.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 06:07:28 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #873 on: May 22, 2010, 09:33:56 PM »
Here is another article on the NS redesign project. I wonder if there was some change of course with Raynor or Macdonald/Raynor, that might explain why there was never a mention of either man being associated with the course.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 10:06:39 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #874 on: May 22, 2010, 10:14:35 PM »
I'm wondering if White was an egomaniac.

Interestingly, the club got rid of him shortly after this article was published.

White's quotes don't seem to make sense. Isaac Mackie was the only other party who was documented to have been there early on. White certainly wasn't there after a civil engineer had been working on the course.

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Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
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