Michael Bamberger on Hugh Wilson, Tom Doak and a lot more...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Merion, Stonewall and Phoenixville too.As always, the comments posted are interesting as well:

http://tinyurl.com/ycqppzh

[Kirk Gill]

Steve, for whatever reason that link does not work for me.

Is it just me, folks?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

It works for me.

If it doesn't work, the article is on www.golf.com

OR go to www.myphillygolf.com and click on the link there under Commentary

[Chris Flamion]

When I read Bamberger's article I knew it would get tossed up over here. 

I feel his writing is very good and he has a good point.  The comments on the other hand....

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I guess Bamberger forgot about Wilson's work at Seaview as noted in one of the comments. That makes 5 courses to his credit.

[TEPaul]

I'll tell you one thing about Hugh Wilson----he just may've been the quietest man about what he actually did in architecture of anyone in history. Had it not been for that article that Piper and Oakley asked him to write in the end of 1914 about Merion (which was about 90% on the agronomic development of Merion) I don't think there would be a word from him on architecture. He did mention Seaview in a letter to Oakley but that was about reclaiming marsh land.

In the article he wrote for Piper and Oakley about Merion in 1914-15 after the first paragraph that mentioned Macdonald's and Whigam's help and advice at NGLA and the educational benefits of Pine Valley, he did lapse into a paragraph towards the end on how to find the inspiratin to design and create natural looking bunkers but he realized it was not exactly on the subject of agronomy and he crossed it out.

[Joe Bausch]

I've been looking at the history of early Philly golf courses for some time now, as many of you know.  I have little doubt that Wilson was heavily involved with the following four courses:

1.  MEast
2.  MWest
3.  Seaview
4.  Cobb's Creek.

I've tried very hard to find a link between Phoenixville and Wilson.  I've uncovered just about every rock I can think of and have not found a single linkage of Phoenixville to Wilson.  That doesn't mean I don't think he was involved, but I've not found anything yet to support the claim.

I've found suggestions that Phoenixville received help in setting up their course in the early 20's from some people from Plymouth Country Club.  And PCC has ties to William Flynn.  But that is as close to a linkage to Wilson that I have.

Joe

P.S.  Regarding Seaview and Wilson:  I've previously presented evidence to suggest this course is a Wilson that soon after it opened Ross did a nip and tuck.  Soon I hope to have further, maybe even definitive evidence, that HIW was the primary architect on this Clarence Geist financed track.  Stay tuned. 

[TEPaul]

Joe:

Regarding your PS in your post above, are you aware of what Wilson wrote to Piper or Oakley about Seaview in 1913? And are you aware that at that very time (around May/June 1913) Harry Colt was here in the area? We certainly do know Colt spent about a week at that time with Crump at Pine Valley (apparently the only time Colt was ever actually at PV) and we also know from a Tillinghast article at the time that Colt visited Seaview.

We also can surmise from what Colt said to Wilson in a letter in the early 1920s that it appears Colt must have stayed with Wilson at some point when he was in this area at that time in 1913 and that Wilson must have stayed with Colt for a time when he was in England in the spring of 1912.

[Tom_Doak]

Joe:

The person who told me of Hugh Wilson's connection to Phoenixville was Bill Kittleman, who did some renovation work at the club in the early 90's.  I am not sure that is accurate, nor where he got his information; but Bill knew more about Wilson than anyone else I knew at the time.  So he's the one you should ask.

[Sean_A]

Is it me or did this article seem like an intro to a larger piece?  I kept looking for page 2!  Weird, very weird.

Ciao

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

The person who told me of Hugh Wilson's connection to Phoenixville was Bill Kittleman, who did some renovation work at the club in the early 90's.  I am not sure that is accurate, nor where he got his information; but Bill knew more about Wilson than anyone else I knew at the time.  So he's the one you should ask.

You are right about needing to talk to Bill.  I know Bill now and have been around him a few times.  I'm always so interesting in all his golf stories that I forget to ask him where he learned of the attribution of Wilson to PCC!

There is a fairly extensive write-up of PCC's history by Gene Gibbons on their web page. 

http://www.phoenixvillecc.com/history.html

No direct mention of Wilson, but the Plymouth CC linkage.  I've tried to find someone that knows Gene Gibbons, to no avail.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

There is a man by the name of Fred Christman who for many years was the competitions director of the Golf Association of Philadelphia and has been a member of Phoenixville GC for many many years who told me over 25 years ago that the club is sure Wilson was their architect and can prove it.

I haven't spoken with Fred in almost a decade but maybe I should call him and tell him that perhaps the club should now begin to consider that Macdonald and Whigam were the driving force behind the routing and design of their course or even that HH Barker may've designed their course while on his way by train from New York to Georgia.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

Regarding your PS in your post above, are you aware of what Wilson wrote to Piper or Oakley about Seaview in 1913? And are you aware that at that very time (around May/June 1913) Harry Colt was here in the area? We certainly do know Colt spent about a week at that time with Crump at Pine Valley (apparently the only time Colt was ever actually at PV) and we also know from a Tillinghast article at the time that Colt visited Seaview.

We also can surmise from what Colt said to Wilson in a letter in the early 1920s that it appears Colt must have stayed with Wilson at some point when he was in this area at that time in 1913 and that Wilson must have stayed with Colt for a time when he was in England in the spring of 1912.

Tom, I am aware of the Colt PV visit and a couple of articles out there that mention Colt also visiting Seaview.  Is it possible Harry had some involvement at Seaview?   If I was a betting man, I would say yes.

What exactly did Wilson say about Seaview in 1913?

[Joe Bausch]

TomD:

There is a man by the name of Fred Christman who for many years was the competition director of the Golf Association of Philadelphia and has been a member of Phoenixville GC for many many years who told me over 25 years ago that the club is sure Wilson was their architect and can prove it.

TomP, this is the first I've heard you mention this.  Very interesting!

[TEPaul]

"Is it possible Harry had some involvement at Seaview?"   

Joe:

I have no idea about that other than Tillinghast wrote in an article back then that Colt visited Seaview in 1913. I would assume he went there with Wilson (particularly if he'd been staying with him in 1913) and I would assume being the famous golf course architect Colt was at that time if he went to Seaview with or without Wilson he probably had something to say about the potential golf course down there.

"What exactly did Wilson say about Seaview in 1913?"

He wanted to know what either Piper or Oakley could tell him about what the US Government might be willing to do or how they might be willing to consult Seaview about essentially marsh reclamation.

[TEPaul]

"TomP, this is the first I've heard you mention this.  Very interesting!"

Joe:

After being in this area for about thirty years now and having been all around golf and golf administration in this area just about all that time there is probably a whole lot I've never mentioned on this website and on some reflection that may be a very good thing indeed! 

[Joe Bausch]

My earlier post concentrated on full courses my man Hughie was involved with!  But let's not forget that Hugh Wilson contributed at Philmont South, North Hills (both around 1914), and as late as the 20s he was working with Flynn on Marble Hall, Kittansett, mentioned as the architect of the coming Bryn Mawr CC (never done), and was going to help with the next municipal course in Philly.

[Kyle Harris]

My earlier post concentrated on full courses my man Hughie was involved with!  But let's not forget that Hugh Wilson contributed at Philmont South, North Hills (both around 1914), and as late as the 20s he was working with Flynn on Marble Hall, Kittansett, mentioned as the architect of the coming Bryn Mawr CC (never done), and was going to help with the next municipal course in Philly.

Did this ultimately become Juniata?

[TEPaul]

Joe:

As I'm pretty sure you've heard at some point that story that Hugh Wilson and William Flynn had considered going into business together, apparently in the 1920s (after the USGA created the so-called "architect exception" to the amateur status rule). In any case, I should say we have never seen any actual and direct evidence of that.

On the other hand, we do have some letters from Wilson in which he says he does not think it a good idea that Flynn go into business with Hugh Alison (who had broached the subject) because he didn't feel Flynn needed that. 

[Joe Bausch]

My earlier post concentrated on full courses my man Hughie was involved with!  But let's not forget that Hugh Wilson contributed at Philmont South, North Hills (both around 1914), and as late as the 20s he was working with Flynn on Marble Hall, Kittansett, mentioned as the architect of the coming Bryn Mawr CC (never done), and was going to help with the next municipal course in Philly.

Did this ultimately become Juniata?

Yes.