[Mark Pearce]

Scott,

I believe Chris Cupitt (if I'm wrong as to who it was, my apologies) posted some very negative commenst about Muirfield.  It goes without saying that many disagreed.  But "Hate"?  It's only a golf course.  You're right, of course, about supporting arguments but Brian said that was exactly what he was going to do when he posted his pictures.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

[
That is a lot of hate.

I don't think Scott is using the word in anger. There's another thread about courses that are polarizing and it concerns courses that people either "love" or "hate".

I think the course gets such high ratings just because of the views and where it is located.

That's extremely insulting to those who have rated it. It suggests you believe they know nothing.

Andrew:

I don't think this is insulting. There are many examples of courses benefitting from great settings and good locations. Lets encourage Brian to give his reasons rather than jumping down his throat.

Dónal.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

I get that, too.  But it doesn't work as well on bentgrass fairways as it does for bermudagrass ... the root structure isn't as tough and the edges of the bunker are much more prone to collapse.

Tom, what is the turf at Royal Liverpool?



This hole at Bethpage Black is the antithesis, "fairway" bunkers in the rough.



I'm not saying the grass surrounding fairway bunkers has to be cut at fairway height, but something close certainly makes them more of a hazard.  I was trying to find a photo of Bethpage Black's 18th hole, that's the poster child.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

I get that, too.  But it doesn't work as well on bentgrass fairways as it does for bermudagrass ... the root structure isn't as tough and the edges of the bunker are much more prone to collapse.

I agree, but I wouldn't discourage folks with bentgrass fairways from doing the right thing just because it isn't as easy to do as it might be with some other turf type. Bentgrass, under a drier and leaner regime, can offer enough support to allow close to the edge mowing with competent operators and a super who sticks to details. Kalamazoo CC is doing their fairway cut right to the sand edge without issue....they started doing this under Don Placek's recommendation, along with their fairway widening program which has been a great improvement there, IMO.

Soils, irrigation and fertility have a lot to do with structure and depth of roots, as well as the turf variety. I'd hesitate to write off any type of turf to being incapable.





Joe

Bravo, thanks! 

[Kenny Baer]

I think the course gets such high ratings just because of the views and where it is located.

That's extremely insulting to those who have rated it. It suggests you believe they know nothing.

Were you being serious?  I thought you were being tongue and cheek.

[Andrew Brown]

 
I finished my week with a game at Huntingdale, which was the weakest course of the week...

Robin....imagine the reactions here if you'd misspelt "week"....

Andrew

[Tom_Doak]

Bill M:

The fairways at Royal Liverpool are fescue-based with other grasses here and there ... but the fescue roots hold everything together remarkably well, especially under infrequent irrigation as they get in Scotland and England.  So, they mow tight fairway all around all the pot bunkers in the UK.

Joe:

Thanks for your note on exceptions to my rule.  I have never been to Kalamazoo CC to see the work there, even though I'm sitting ten feet away from Don as I type this.  Good to hear the idea is working for them ... that is exactly the kind of small touch that can separate a course from being perceived as "ordinary" without it requiring costly reconstruction.

Robin H:

Glad to hear you made it to St. Andrews Beach.  It is one of THE best courses we've built, in spite of all their subsequent problems.  Did you make it to Barnbougle?  Just curious how you would compare the two.

[Jason Topp]

I would be interested to hear more about the 6th at New South Wales.  The green is quite a ways away from the water, but the right to left slope makes it preferable to miss on the water side of the hole.  I enjoyed it as a change from the normal hole that has the green right next to the water.

[Andrew Summerell]

I think the course gets such high ratings just because of the views and where it is located.

That's extremely insulting to those who have rated it. It suggests you believe they know nothing.

Were you being serious?  I thought you were being tongue and cheek.

I wasn’t being that serious & I thought my 2nd post showed that.

I apologise if people thought I jumped down Brian’s throat & I’d like to thank everyone who gave me examples of it. 

[Will Smith]

Tim Liddy made it over to Victoria and shot this interview with Ian Todd, the Director of Grounds. Did any other architects make it over there. When I was there in 2003, it was a standout.

http://tinyurl.com/ylj9bzd

[Ian Andrew]

Will,

I did make it over to Victoria on the Tuesday following the tour.

I was really impressed with holes like the 4th and 15th, but there weren’t a lot of holes where I was making copious notes. It’s real solid but fairly straight forward. I found I was a little more taken by courses like Woodlands and Commonwealth, which may not be as consistent as Victoria, but was far more architecturally interesting.

I was very impressed with Mike Clayton and Ian Todd’s work on clearing out the lower level vegetation and the impact it had on hitting recovery shots. The areas under the trees were a beautiful golden hue and this really created a wonderful effect that only Kingston Heath could match. It was nice to see the landscape, which is hard to do at most Sandbelt courses. When you add in the potential restoration by Mike Clayton, using the incredible old aerial, I think that Victoria could really be something special in the near future.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill M:

The fairways at Royal Liverpool are fescue-based with other grasses here and there ... but the fescue roots hold everything together remarkably well, especially under infrequent irrigation as they get in Scotland and England.  So, they mow tight fairway all around all the pot bunkers in the UK.

Those bunkers play about twice their actual size because of the way they are maintained.  I'm not saying that bunkers here need to be maintained the same way, but more closely mown grass would certainly be a lot better.

[Mike_Clayton]

Will,

I played it with Ian Andrew last week and the course has continued to improve since you and I played.
The opening hole was redone and we have opened up the right hand sides of the holes that run along the north boundary - 2 and 3 and the 13th along the southern boundary. All three holes are significantly improved.
Ian has also done a brilliant job joining greens to tees with short grass and that has been a significant but underrated aspect of the work at Victoria.

I have not seen the course better than it is right now and it will be a perfect follow-up to Kingston Heath for next year's Masters tournament.
It isn't perfect but it is a lot closer than it was 15 years ago.

[Richard Chamberlain]

Brian,
Did you play well @ NSW ? 

PS
Our lotto ticket from your RM loss also came up with a duckegg...so get back to work.

Rich

[Will Smith]

Mike,

Thanks for the report and I hope to get down to see the improvements soon.

- Will

[Robin_Hiseman]

Tom D:
No, I didn't make it as far as Barnbougle.  I guess I will wait until LF is open before making that trip, if I'm ever in the area again.  Scott's gathering in 2011 is very tempting.

Scott:  To return to one of your original questions...sort of.  My favourite holes from each course I played were:

NSW:  5th (I totally screwed up the hole, but it was a thrill to mount the crest for the first time.  If you ever want to nail a drive it is here.)


Royal Sydney:  1st  (funky short par 4, so many options.  Probably best to just bomb it and take your chances!)


Metropolitan:  12th (like a longer version of the 10th at Riviera)


St. Andrews Beach:  7th (200 yard wide fairway!  I felt far left gave best line in.  Playing partners thought far right!  Topped it into bush in front of tee.  I could have happily stood there all day hitting tee shots.


Royal Melbourne(West):  6th  (perfect risk and reward drive options)


Huntingdale:  18th  (don't normally like long par 4's much, but this was a very strong, exacting finish to a tough course.  Yes, that's me)


I'm not going to bore you with a run through of any of the good shots I played.  Suffice it to say that the following was my best shot of the week... by a clear margin.  Bondi Beach rocks!

[Eric Smith]

I love golfclubatlas.  Thank you Robin for the tour.  especially the happy ending.

[Scott Warren]

Thanks Robin, and great to finish with a lovely summary of why I am sitting in a 8 degree, windy, rainy London autumn and missing Australia!

[Andrew Brown]

The opening hole was redone and we have opened up the right hand sides of the holes that run along the north boundary - 2 and 3 and the 13th along the southern boundary. All three holes are significantly improved.

Mike,

I've never played Victoria GC, but remember some of it from tournament telecasts from long ago when I was a kid and you were one of the up and coming stars of Australian golf (seems like yesterday???)

I would be interested if you could comment on the redo of the first - what was done etc, and post any photos of the hole.


Regards from Norway,
Andrew Brown

[Bill_McBride]

Robin, great photos.  That #5 at New South Wales, what a gorgeous hole.  And I guess that's the sixth following, what a par 3!  How long is it, and does the prevailing wind blow right in your face?  How many square feet would you estimate that green is?

Good thing that sheila in the last photo wasn't wearing a bikini, that would have been a heart stopper.   

[Tyler Kearns]

Mike,

I've never played Victoria GC, but remember some of it from tournament telecasts from long ago when I was a kid and you were one of the up and coming stars of Australian golf (seems like yesterday???)

I would be interested if you could comment on the redo of the first - what was done etc, and post any photos of the hole.

Andrew,

When I played at Victoria a few years back, the first green, which was a re-design by resident architect Peter Thompson, stood out like a sore thumb in comparison to the other greens on the course. It looked new and polished, which isn't very desirable on the 'Sandbelt'.

TK

[Shane Gurnett]

Robin, the 1st at Victoria:

[Robin_Hiseman]

Robin, great photos.  That #5 at New South Wales, what a gorgeous hole.  And I guess that's the sixth following, what a par 3!  How long is it, and does the prevailing wind blow right in your face?  How many square feet would you estimate that green is?

Good thing that sheila in the last photo wasn't wearing a bikini, that would have been a heart stopper.   

Bill

You should see the other photos of the Baywatch girls

That is actually the 6th tee in the background, which is undoubtedly one of the great tee locations in golf.  But as Brian stated earlier, the 6th itself is a bit of a letdown.  Scott, to answer another of your questions, give me one hole in Oz to redesign and it would be NSW 6.  This stunning location deserves a brilliant green complex and yet it presents a target seemingly appropriated from a down-at-heel council owned public track.

This is the view from that brilliant tee.  Make up your own minds on the green.

New South Wales Hole 6

[Scott Warren]

What would you do with the green, Robin?

[Robin_Hiseman]

Scott

The green complex jars my eye because its shape, elevation and surrounding bunkers do not sit comfortably with the strong shapes and orientations of the rocky coastline.  There is a very strong horizontal/diagonal rock strata in the foreground and I would seek to shape in a green complex that complements this dominant feature.

I would also extend the design area further to the right of the approach, to draw the eye towards the target.

The present target looks small and insignificant in a grand setting.  It deserves more, albeit in a fashion that sits well within the overall style of the layout.

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