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Anthony Gray

What course is the most Polarizing?
« on: November 22, 2009, 09:40:16 AM »


  You either love it or hate it.

  I'll nominate Tabacco Road.

  Anthony


Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2009, 09:50:37 AM »
Anthony...

I haven't played these yet, but my research leads me to believe that Raynor and Tom Fazio are polarizing architects and I would have to say that

Raynor's Camargo and Fazio's Eagle Point appear to experience widly divergent rankings among the Top 100 critics and perhaps that would make the polarizing.

Mac
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jud_T

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Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2009, 09:51:15 AM »
Old Head and Tralee spring to mind...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2009, 09:51:48 AM »
Anthony:

Do you really know many people who HATE Tobacco Road?  I don't.  I know a bunch of people who don't think it should be included in the top 100 lists, but that is a long way from "hate".

Tot Hill Farm has some haters; does anybody love it?

Jud's nomination of Old Head is an excellent one.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2009, 10:00:02 AM »
For what is worth, for my April/May trip to NC, I plan will playing Tobacco Road.  I have had an almost equal response of..."wow, you will really like it" and "why are you going to play that course".

Now these guys aren't architectural gurus, simply avid golfers.  Some love it, some think it is a waste of time and "goofy golf" as they put it.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jeff Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2009, 10:00:57 AM »
Wolf Creek.

So bad it's good!

Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2009, 10:01:07 AM »
What about Wolf Creek?  I haven't played it, but it seems to fit the criteria of this question.

Jeff Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2009, 10:06:27 AM »
It must be in our genes.

So bad it's good!

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2009, 10:20:54 AM »
Is Augusta National polarizing?


cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2009, 10:21:13 AM »
Anthony:

Do you really know many people who HATE Tobacco Road?  I don't.  I know a bunch of people who don't think it should be included in the top 100 lists, but that is a long way from "hate".

Tot Hill Farm has some haters; does anybody love it?

Jud's nomination of Old Head is an excellent one.

I loved Tobacco Road and recommend to everyone that they should play Tot Hill Farm once. It is totally unique, goofy, quirky and for me, a positive experience. If one plays it knowing it to be that and is not looking for a normal golf experience, I think they can enjoy it. If they are a purist and looking to tear it apart, I would say, stay far away.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

TEPaul

Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2009, 10:30:20 AM »
How in the world can anyone actually HATE Old Head?

I can see some saying that the architects didn't get anywhere near as much as they should have or could have out of that truly remarkably and highly dramatic site but HATE it?

I just don't see that and I've never heard anyone say that about Old Head. But if some say that I think they need to have their golf architectural head examined!  ;)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2009, 10:39:02 AM »
I think Strantz's True Blue in Myrtle Beach is polarizing.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2009, 11:04:02 AM »
Anthony:

I'm wondering if you realized when you started this thread that the idea of creating a polarization of opinion with golf course architecture was actually one of the most important points and goals with a couple of the most significant golf architects in history---eg Macdonald and Mackenzie? They both actually wrote about it.

Some may not understand that and more may be confused by it or just miss the point of it altogether, but nevertheless that is surely what Macdonald and Mackenzie said and apparently intended to do.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2009, 11:29:06 AM »
I think Strantz's True Blue in Myrtle Beach is polarizing.

Joe, we played both Caledonia and True Blue in the Dixie Cup a few years ago.  The story we heard about True Blue was that it was much more difficult when it first opened - which turned off a lot of visitors - but the owner had the course 'softened up.'  I don't know what was done, but it is certainly a lot of fun to play with some very interesting holes.  "Hate" would not be used about either of those courses. 

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2009, 11:36:31 AM »
I think Strantz's True Blue in Myrtle Beach is polarizing.

Joe, we played both Caledonia and True Blue in the Dixie Cup a few years ago.  The story we heard about True Blue was that it was much more difficult when it first opened - which turned off a lot of visitors - but the owner had the course 'softened up.'  I don't know what was done, but it is certainly a lot of fun to play with some very interesting holes.  "Hate" would not be used about either of those courses. 

I took a group of 16 down to MB many years ago and played TB and Caledonia on the same day.  Only me and a friend of mine liked TB; the other 14 varied from meh to ugghhh.  If they softened it up, well, I can't say I blame them as they are in the business to make money.  Caledonia, OTOH, if one of the least polarizing courses I've ever played.  I've never taken a group there where all members of the group didn't enjoy it.

I wonder if Strantz had this 'more conservative Caledonia' and 'more cutting-edge True Blue' models in mind trying to cover a variety of interests.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2009, 11:39:01 AM »
That was freaky Tang brothers.

I agree that they are serving a little hater-ade at Wolf Creek.  You see sentiments of both love and hate for a few Engh layouts as well.  

What I find interesting, is that for the most part, it's only modern courses being discussed here.  Do classic courses get a pass on controversy?  I'd like to know what a bunch of GCA geeks would've said about this question in 1930.  

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2009, 11:41:02 AM »
I think Strantz's True Blue in Myrtle Beach is polarizing.

Joe, we played both Caledonia and True Blue in the Dixie Cup a few years ago.  The story we heard about True Blue was that it was much more difficult when it first opened - which turned off a lot of visitors - but the owner had the course 'softened up.'  I don't know what was done, but it is certainly a lot of fun to play with some very interesting holes.  "Hate" would not be used about either of those courses.  

I took a group of 16 down to MB many years ago and played TB and Caledonia on the same day.  Only me and a friend of mine liked TB; the other 14 varied from meh to ugghhh.  If they softened it up, well, I can't say I blame them as they are in the business to make money.  Caledonia, OTOH, if one of the least polarizing courses I've ever played.  I've never taken a group there where all members of the group didn't enjoy it.

I wonder if Strantz had this 'more conservative Caledonia' and 'more cutting-edge True Blue' models in mind trying to cover a variety of interests.


I think Caledonia was his first solo design, so that would make sense.  It's a cool course on a pretty small site.  The only thing I didn't like was the long walk around the 9th hole, seemed like it should have played in the opposite direction!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 12:25:34 PM by Bill_McBride »

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2009, 12:18:35 PM »
The Belfry (Brabazon) is pretty polarising. Most people think it would be better returned to the potato fields it once was, others seem awed by the history and think that the unplayability to the average golfer of the feature holes means it must be 'Championship'. 

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2009, 12:19:38 PM »
I think that "polarizing" is better left to politics and music.  Honestly, don't all courses consist of sand, grass and water? of trees, bushes and weeds?  of tees, fairways and greens?  On my watch, you like a course mostly because you played well, because you and your group play there, because access is logical.  

You get to know a course and can comment on its value after numerous playings.  If you don't like the course, you're not likely to return.  Therefore, dislike of a course usually comes after a single trip, not after numerous rounds.  If you return a few more times, you're likely to find some things to like and the course becomes less despicable, less offensive.

I agree that Tobacco Road can be a frustrating course for those who do not play to their strengths.  The carry up the slope on 9 or the carry over the quarry on 18 are quite intimidating.  If someone is frustrated after holes one and two, hits the green on three in the wrong spot and four putts, the remaining 15 holes are meaningless...terrific but meaningless.

I have recommended to Mac Plumart and any others who will listen that they should play True Blue before Caledonia and Tot Hill before Tobacco Road.  Should you play Royal New Kent or Stonehouse first, when in Williamsburg?

I would think that the element of the drive is the most important when defining the potential threat of non-appeal.  The drive defines the majority of golfers, not the approach, not the putting.  Drive the ball well and you'll usually slop it up near the green and save pars and bogies.  A golf course that allows ample width of fairway and allows the golfer to get the ball close enough to the green will never disappoint.  A good putting day is unintentional; most golfers work on their putting so infrequently that they need to be "on" in order to putt well; the touch soon reverts to the average, 34-40 putts per round.  

In conclusion, I'll give my two cents on what might be considered a "polarizing" course:  Southern Pines.  All of 6200 yards, many of its drives go into an uphill slope, reducing role.  The need to add a club or two to the approach, without even factoring in the wind, is beyond the ken of most golfers.  Ergo, approach shots end up short.  The greens are diabolical and speedy and the three-putt is no guarantee for the average Giuseppe.  In contrast, the architectural aficionado loves the joint.  Go figure.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2009, 12:30:33 PM »
Since every course is bound to have plenty of people in the middle with a "take it or leave it" attitude and many great courses aren't truly hated by anoyone, would a more interesting question be which course is most polarizing to you (you being anyone that cares to answer...)

That is the same person can both love it and hate it... might be certain holes, might be a course you've played many times and come to really know and understand enough about the course where you love some things and hate others (hate might be the wrong word but you probably get where I'm going.)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2009, 12:30:53 PM »
I would have to agree with Tobacco Road. It seems people love it or hate it, no in between, kind of like Notre Dame. By the way I'm a fan, of the golf course that is.

Cliff Hamm

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Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2009, 12:35:08 PM »
Count me in as a lover of Tobacco Road....Whistling Straits seems to be at least in the love it or not worth the money camp.   Perhaps not as polarizing as TR but still strong opinions.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2009, 12:48:13 PM »
Cliff Hamm raises a notable point:  what makes the course thus?  Is it the fee, the amount of walking, the greens, the carries, the runway tee boxes, or the whole damned package?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2009, 01:03:35 PM »
While I "like" Tobacco Road, I was astonished by now much less I "liked" it the second play.

While I can't fathom anybody not "liking" Rustic Canyon, casual conversations off this web-site sugget it is far more polarizing than one might think.

Erin Hills should be mentioned on this thread.  I didn't "like" it.

Also, the fact that the post-renovated Blue Mound doesn't make Golfweek's Top 100 Classic list is polarizing in my book - it's that good based the green contours alone.

Mike
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 01:11:14 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What course is the most Polarizing?
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2009, 01:20:42 PM »
Tom Doak - I know a good number of people who "hate" Tobacco Road. I was part of an outing of 24 golfers there a couple of years ago and at least four or five from that group simply could not stand the course. I have teased these guys every now and then about taking a return trip to TB and (trust me) you couldn't pay them to go back there... they "HATE' it. Personally, I LOVE IT!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

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