[Sean_A]

Kalen

You are barking up the wrong tree.  I have played a great many years in the US and UK.  There is no comparison as to the general rule of the ground game.  Generally, in the UK, it is a goer.  Generally in the States, it isn't a goer.  Whatever the reasons for this are open to debate, but the main premise is without any shred of a doubt true.  That said, how Donal describes the situation is generally true.  However, in my experience, and what is rarely talked about, on a proper f&f course the ground game sparkles when playing into the wind.  The guy that can hit low cuts and hooks into a good head wind is going to be supreme.  You would be amazed at how far a guy who can't carry the ball 200 yards can hit it - and the best ones are damn accurate.  Its a totally different game and it really brings home the meaning of why width is important.  On narrow courses this sort of play is all but impossible and once you see it in action - more is the pity.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Bill and Donal,

This is about the run-up shot, not recovery options!!   Focus!!!

Grrrrrrrrrrr   

Kalen, there are many examples of holes like the one a NB, but we're not talking huge numbers. I can only think of a few courses where a burn/drain/ditch is directly in front of the green. It's still unusual in the UK&I, when you consider all the courses there are.

There are many myths about links courses and those that play on them. How often have I seen someone running a shot in from 100 yds? Hardly ever. My approach in fast and firm conditions is to take a PW from 100 yards and play an easy shot, and just land it 5-10 yards short of the green. It's much the same from 150 yds. It's in the area of recovery where most bump and run shots are played. Some people would have you believe that we're running in shots from all distances and angles. It's a load of cobblers! We're not the links purists that we like to think we are.

Most links courses in Ireland will only be fast and firm for a 4-8 week period in the summer, and this occurs once every 5-7 years if we're lucky. The summers are usually quite wet. I can count the number of good summers that I've experienced in my life on one hand.

Dónal.

Donal,

Well said and interesting comments.  So it would seem when people talk about the fast and firm of the UK courses its more about landing the ball short of the green and running up as opposed to actually hitting shots that are a low lower.

P.S.  Don't get me wrong I think its fun to hit those low runners as if I have a 6 iron in my hand or more,  its not going to go very high.  But I've hit plenty of 3-4 irons that still run 10-30 yards onto a green even when conditions are on the soft side! 


Bill,

Yes i did know the difference between the terms...pardon me for not getting the usage correct and up to your standards!! 

[Jud_T]

Sean,
Well said. I've been nashing my teeth over this thread until you said it for all of us. Must be that u.k. Educational system

[Kalen Braley]

  Because as pointed out, a ground approach "could be played" on most holed I've played, even if its not the best way to score well. 

Kalen,

I asked an extremely well-travelled American GCAer the other day at what % of US courses I could hit a low punch 7i, land it 10m short and run it onto the green. His reply was that it was an option at 5-10% of courses.

Scott,

This is kind of my point.

How about this? Why don't you ask the same GCA'er at what % of UK courses can you land a low punch 7i on the green and have it stay on the green? Would that answer be 5-10% as well?

Don't get me wrong, I understand why f&f is more attractive with all the guesswork and humps and bumps that must be accounted for, its fun I get it.  But why is one style thrown under the bus for only having 1 option available (the high aerial shot that lands on the green), when in reality playing links courses limits folks in the same way in that landing it on the green is taken away from them and only 1 style (land it short of the green) will work?

I'm just trying to understand the arbitraty nature of why target style golf is abused as being one dimenisional because you are forced to land it on the green, when links golf can often be the same in that you must land it short of the green.  Both styles are forced on you, they both exclude the others playing style!

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen

You are barking up the wrong tree.  I have played a great many eyars in the US and UK.  There is no comparison as to the general rule of the ground game.  Generally, in the UK, it is a goer.  Generally in the States, it isn't a goer.  Whatever the reasons for this are open to debate, but the main premise is without any shred of a doubt true.  That said, how Donal describes the situation is generally true.  However, in my experience, and what is rarely talked about, on a proper f&f course the ground game sparkles when playing into the wind.  The guy that can hit low cuts and hooks into a good head wind is going to be supreme.  You would be amazed at how far a guy who can't carry the ball 200 yards can hit it - and the best ones are damn accurate.  Its a totally different game and it really brings home the meaning of why width is important.  On narrow courses this sort of play is all but impossible and once you see it in action - more is the pity.

Ciao

Sean,

Fair enough, I won't disagree that the UK isn't more Fast and Firm...but to say its not a go-er over here is completely untrue, because I do it alot.  Sure in some cases its a no go due to a pond or bunker in front of the green but this is no different than in the UK with having a burn or bunkers in front of the green as well.

I will also agree, thats its not ideal, because an aerial game will likely produce better results...but it doesn't mean that it won't work, it just means you have to suck like me and be forced to work on those kinds of shots more!!   

P.S. Maybe my true calling is to live in the UK so I can use all these lower shots to my advantge...and the extra width would be dandy as well.  Hell over there I'd be a single digit capper!!

[David_Tepper]

Kalen -

In fact, barring very windy or burnt out conditions, you can play aerial approach shots to greens on links courses. I have played with golfers on links courses and seen them do it often. I have also seen golfers hit bump & run shots from the same spots. Either shot can be effective.

The point is that links courses, for the most part, given you more options as to what type of shot you can play. This is due primarily to both the design of the course (an open approach to the front of the green) and the firm & fast condition of the turf fronting the greens.

DT

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen -

In fact, barring very windy or burnt out conditions, you can play aerial approach shots to greens on links courses. I have played with golfers on links courses and seen them do it often. I have also seen golfers hit bump & run shots from the same spots. Either shot can be effective.

The point is that links courses, for the most part, given you more options as to what type of shot you can play. This is due primarily to both the design of the course (an open approach to the front of the green) and the firm & fast condition of the turf fronting the greens.

DT

David,

Thanks for that....I've only played a handful of true fast and firm courses and more often than not found that flying the ball on the green was an excercise in futility.  One even involved playing to a frozen solid/iced over temp green...that was a ton of fun!! 

[Ulrich Mayring]

I play a couple of shots better on firm and fast links courses, because the ball runs a long way. On soft courses I am usually short - one, being not the longest hitter to begin with and two, I seem to underestimate distances all the time. So on links courses I am usually dead-on and seem to be able to negotiate the ground contours quite nicely. However, don't count on extra width. Firm and fast also means that your ball is off the fairway very quickly. You need that extra width just to keep your good shots on the fairway

That being said, a course with only run-up shots is boring as well. A couple of aerial approaches and some forced carries should be mixed in to make for a fun round.

And, finally, you can play aerial shots on links courses if you like - just don't shoot for the middle of the green. Take one club less, execute your aerial shot properly and the ball will run-up to the flag.

Ulrich

[Scott Warren]

 Because as pointed out, a ground approach "could be played" on most holed I've played, even if its not the best way to score well.  

Kalen,

I asked an extremely well-travelled American GCAer the other day at what % of US courses I could hit a low punch 7i, land it 10m short and run it onto the green. His reply was that it was an option at 5-10% of courses.

Scott,

This is kind of my point.

How about this? Why don't you ask the same GCA'er at what % of UK courses can you land a low punch 7i on the green and have it stay on the green? Would that answer be 5-10% as well?

Don't get me wrong, I understand why f&f is more attractive with all the guesswork and humps and bumps that must be accounted for, its fun I get it.  But why is one style thrown under the bus for only having 1 option available (the high aerial shot that lands on the green), when in reality playing links courses limits folks in the same way in that landing it on the green is taken away from them and only 1 style (land it short of the green) will work?

I'm just trying to understand the arbitraty nature of why target style golf is abused as being one dimenisional because you are forced to land it on the green, when links golf can often be the same in that you must land it short of the green.  Both styles are forced on you, they both exclude the others playing style!

That would be a sensational point, were your claims true that one style of play must be adhered to on links courses (land it short and run it up).

Even on the firmest links, a mid iron played other than with a gale behind will land and check up within 8-10ft if struck well. A short iron or wedge, within 5ft. The idea that the ball is releasing 20 yards is simply not true.

The ground game and aerial game are both there to be played.

But this overlooks one massive reason for the attraction of links golf, IMO.

It's not the ground game from 150 yards out that is primarily appealing to me, it's the dozens of shots from 20-30 yards out, and from the tight lies around the green - up down and over ridges etc that make it as intoxicating as it is.

[Sean_A]

Kalen

You are barking up the wrong tree.  I have played a great many eyars in the US and UK.  There is no comparison as to the general rule of the ground game.  Generally, in the UK, it is a goer.  Generally in the States, it isn't a goer.  Whatever the reasons for this are open to debate, but the main premise is without any shred of a doubt true.  That said, how Donal describes the situation is generally true.  However, in my experience, and what is rarely talked about, on a proper f&f course the ground game sparkles when playing into the wind.  The guy that can hit low cuts and hooks into a good head wind is going to be supreme.  You would be amazed at how far a guy who can't carry the ball 200 yards can hit it - and the best ones are damn accurate.  Its a totally different game and it really brings home the meaning of why width is important.  On narrow courses this sort of play is all but impossible and once you see it in action - more is the pity.

Ciao

Sean,

Fair enough, I won't disagree that the UK isn't more Fast and Firm...but to say its not a go-er over here is completely untrue, because I do it alot.  Sure in some cases its a no go due to a pond or bunker in front of the green but this is no different than in the UK with having a burn or bunkers in front of the green as well.

I will also agree, thats its not ideal, because an aerial game will likely produce better results...but it doesn't mean that it won't work, it just means you have to suck like me and be forced to work on those kinds of shots more!!   

P.S. Maybe my true calling is to live in the UK so I can use all these lower shots to my advantge...and the extra width would be dandy as well.  Hell over there I'd be a single digit capper!!

Kalen

When I say a no goer - I mean reasonable players would not attempt to play a low shot.  The risk/reward differential in the States compared to the UK is generally greatly reduced.  I am not in the least exaggerating - the difference in the reasonable availability is like apples and oranges - especially when I consider year round play.  It is difficult to explain to the difference, but believe me, IN GENERAL, it is huge.  So much so that I can recall folks telling me in the States that they couldn't believe I tried a runner shot when they would never even consider it.  Of course, they were right because the courses were way too soft to attempt that sort of shot - I had failed properly adjust to the conditions.  

Ciao 

[Mark Pearce]

How about this? Why don't you ask the same GCA'er at what % of UK courses can you land a low punch 7i on the green and have it stay on the green? Would that answer be 5-10% as well?

Why on earth would you want to hit a low punch 7I on the green and have it stay on?  Unless it is playing into the wind?  The challenge is to control your ball flight.  As David says, it's quite possible to hit high balls and hold greens on firm UK courses.  However, you have the OPTION of hitting a run up with a lower ball flight.

[David_Tepper]

Kalen -

I will grant you that playing an aerial shot to a F&F green requires it to be well struck to produce enough backspin to hold that type of green. A marginal pitch shot may not hold, as it might on a softer green in the U.S. This is another aspect of the game that separates good players from pretenders (and I can assure you I am one of the latter!).

DT  

[Kalen Braley]

Guys,

Thanks for the answers, appreciated.  And just so you know I;ve thought about this topic for awhile now and am generally interested in everyones thoughts.  And I  also figured it would be an uphill battle from the get go with this topic and this group.   

Back to the trenches though!

I keep hearing that high spinning shots are achievable for the "good" player or that "good" shots can hold the green.  Isn't this sort of the same as saying a "good" player can play an aerial course well or "good" chips check up close to the hole?

All this sort of stuff seems fairly obvious, good shots of any variety are almost always rewarded justly. But the fact is in the states your average joe is a 16 capper, not a 5 hitting neat crisp iron shots.  Are players in the UK that much better such that most of them are good and hit good shots most of the time?  In reality isn't it true that more often than not folks over there choose to land the ball short because its the higher % shot?  Wouldn't that be along the same lines of a player choosing the aerial, land on the green shot here because its the higher % shot here?

So, while a high shot "could" be played over there...is it safe to say its not the most oft used shot?
Isn't that the same as saying a low runner "could" be played over here, even if its not the most used?

Because as stated the vast majority of holes I've played over here due in fact allow for something lower to be played into the green or even land short of the green and run on....they're just more difficult to do and call for a "good" shot to played to have it come off.  And yes as Sean said, these low shots do have to played differently because conditions are different.  But they can indeed be played.

[Kalen Braley]

How about this? Why don't you ask the same GCA'er at what % of UK courses can you land a low punch 7i on the green and have it stay on the green? Would that answer be 5-10% as well?

Why on earth would you want to hit a low punch 7I on the green and have it stay on?  Unless it is playing into the wind?  The challenge is to control your ball flight.  As David says, it's quite possible to hit high balls and hold greens on firm UK courses.  However, you have the OPTION of hitting a run up with a lower ball flight.

Mark,


If its silly for me to expect a low punch 7 iron to stay on a green in the UK because its too firm, then its also silly to expect a low 7i punch to run on a green because the approach is too soft!! 

There is always the other side of the coin.

[Mark Pearce]

Kalen,

Isn't the point that on a soft, Bermuda grassed course, your punched, low flying 7I and your majestic, high flying, soft landing 7I both end up within a short distance of where they pitch, so the trajectory is unimportant?  With fast and firm, of course, trajectory almost becomes more important than carry distance.  I think that's quite significant.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Isn't the point that on a soft, Bermuda grassed course, your punched, low flying 7I and your majestic, high flying, soft landing 7I both end up within a short distance of where they pitch, so the trajectory is unimportant?  With fast and firm, of course, trajectory almost becomes more important than carry distance.  I think that's quite significant.

Mark,

I can't speak to bermuda because I've never played on it, but pretty much every other non-links course I've played, a punched 7 iron will run out more than a high towering one. The difference is on a links courses it will run out quite aways more as compared to only a moderate run out on a softer American style course.  As a general rule, I usually play these shots when:

1)  I'm somewhat forced to by having a longer approach with a long iron in my hand.
2)  I'm hitting into a wind and trying to keep the ball down.
3)  I'm around the greens....but only because my short game is so bad right now.  The low running chips tend to miss "closer" than trying to lob a high one that could end up going almost anywhere.

[Cristian]

Kalen,

A fair question, but I find it hard to believe that in a Utah summer, it's a choice between mudballs and dead grass. And I say that as one who has played all his life through low humidity 40 degree Sydney summers.

To your question about fronting burns on UK links, those I am personally familiar with (TOC 1, North Berwick 7, Deal 1, Trevose 17) have two key features in common:

1. They are typically aproached with a short iron or wedge.
2. They feature reasonably/extremely deep greens.

Greens that cannot be accessed via the ground game on UK links are very much the exception (which was driven home to me just now when I tried to think of links holes with water hard up on the front of the green and managed to count four, out of all the links courses I have played/walked).

I have encountered a few of these burn before green holes as well, but as far as I can remember almost all of them are upwind (in prevailing wind conditions). (TOC1, RCP1, Lundin3 (or 4 ?) are just a few I am thinking of)

[Cristian]

Try hitting a lob wedge off a hardpan fairway at lytham, portrush or TOC after a (relatively) dry week in July/August; any succesful attempt by a double digit handicapper is to be considered a trick shot.

[David_Tepper]

Kalen -

I am not quite sure why you do not seem to accept the answers that have been given to the questions you have raised. I am also not sure how much links golf you have played in GB&I.

Over the past 6 years, I have had the good fortune to play 5 to 7 weeks of links golf per year at Dornoch and the nearby courses. The rest of the year I live in San Francisco. I am, at best, at mid-teen handicap.

I can assure you that the shots I play and the clubs I use, especially those from 100 yards in to the edge of the green, in the two different locales can be very different. They are different for all the reasons (the design of the course, the wind & weather, the firmness of the turf, etc.) that have already been stated on this thread.

As I said earlier, players much better than I, especially those players who can control the trajectory & spin of their short irons & wedges, seem to be better able to play their"normal" aerial game on links courses.   

What more needs to be said?

DT

     

 

[Jon Wiggett]

Kalen,

I have very little experience of golf in the US but from what I have seen there is great variety in american courses. I think that when most people (here in europe anyway) talk about an american style course they are talking about the typical florida layout with lots of lofted approach shots being required. Is this type of course the prevalent type of course in the US? I am not so sure. What is certain is that american golf has suffered from an overly dominant trend towards the visual rather than the playing qualities of the golf course.

Kalen,

the PW is a highly lofted club. Put in a bit of practice with the 7 or 8 iron (maybe even the 5 iron or putter ) in order to be able to use them okay before you play a course such as Bandon.

Jon,

My basis comes from playing out West, which is where I've played the vast majority of my golf, so I've never experienced Florida golf per se.

Its just been my percption that UK golf has just as many of these "aerial or nothing" approaches in the reviews I've seen and was mostly just curious why American courses only tend to get stuck with that stigma when it exists everywhere.  Because as pointed out, a ground approach "could be played" on most holed I've played, even if its not the best way to score well. 

In fact, a case could even be made that a course with overly firm greens have less options because the high aerial shot that lands on the green has no chance of holding for the average joe.  So on one level, it could be said that the "ground game" is mandated to have any kind of success.

Kalen,

firstly, it is very rare that you will find a green in the uk that is so rock hard that the ball will not hold. Links courses for instance will go almost powerdery if they become too dry but not concrete hard. Secondly, it is rare for a F&F course to have its greens cut below 4-5mm meaning even when very firm the ball has some grip. Thirdly, the wind and ground contours will more greatly affect your choice of shot than how firm it is. Finally from 40 yards most players with a mid teen handicap or higher will get the ball closer on average using the putter rather than the wedge or sandwedge. In my experience it is the inability to recognise this fact and the dogmatic approach of if the pro's do this then it must be the best way to play golf attitude (Kalen, I am not trying to be patronizing here).

[Mark Chaplin]

David and Jon you clearly clearly understand links golf. To me as a full time links golfer whose been lucky enough to play around a dozen US top 100s the biggest difference is not where you land the ball on approach shots but the one dimentional way recovery shots around the green have to be played.

Kalen one thing to remember is the GCA myth that most GB&I golf is played on F&F courses financed by American tourists. Probably 5-7% of our courses are proper links and a good percentage of them rarely see the tourist pound.

[James Boon]

I hate it when I dont log on for a day and there is suddenly a two page, interesting discussion. Takes forever to read it all and then I forget half of the points I want to make by the time I get to the end... 

There has been lots of discussion about ground conditions short of the green to allow run up shots, but the thing which jumped out on the original question was the design element of a burn short of a green and a bunch of bunkers short of a green. On a links course like the example at NB, the majority of holes will allow for a run up shot, but then at some point the architect has decided to add variety by putting a green beyond a natural feature that wont really allow a run up shot, be it a burn or a wall (yes I was also expecting to see a picture of the 13th at NB at the start). Most of the time though its will be a short shot to that green, and most of the time the green will be around 40 yards deep.

What else was I going to say... never mind 

Cheers,

James

[Niall C]

Kalen

I suspect by now you've had enough responses to do you but a couple points I would like to add.

As Mark P has said a couple of times its as much about controlling your ball in the wind and allowing for the run on landing depending on how you play the shot, wind strength/direction and other variables like is the ball landing on a down slope/up slope or whatever. It is all those variables which exercise the imagination when you stand over your ball wondering what to do. Thats the joy of links golf.

I think it is a bit of a mis-conception to think that you hit the ball along the ground at every opportunity. For one thing it is a generally easier to guage distance if the ball is airborne at least part of the way. I believe that back in the early days it was generally the sign of a good golfer if he could get his ball in the air, hence the cross hazards and features which were built in to make the game more interesting and challenging. It is just that back then no one was able to spin the ball back the way any half competent golfer can do on a well watered green.

The example you use at North Berwick and the other holes like it at North Berwick such as the redan which have a cross "hazard" still generally allow a good 10 to 20 yards (or more) beyond in which to land the ball and allow for run. Compare that to the modern equivalent of sticking the hole 3 or 4 yards behind a bunker.

Niall

[Kalen Braley]

David,

I have admitally not played any GB&I golf but its certainly not because I don't want to...just a matter of expense in arrnaging such a trip.  I do think the answers that have been given are well thought out and my main purpouse for starting this thread was to challenge the conventional wisdom that run-up shots are only really found in the UK.

But i think the conversation sort of went two different directions in that many gave opinions on maintaince meld and I was more focused around "is it possible to play run up shot", even it means a run-up shot on a softer course would be played differently than one on a true firm course.

[Scott Warren]

I take your point, Kalen, but to me the hard architecture and the playing conditions go hand-in-hand.

If a green has no hazard between you and the hole, but the grass short of the putting surface is 2" rough, is a run-up approach or ground-based short game recovery shot any more possible than if there is a burn there as in the OP?

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