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[Kalen Braley]

I was thinking alot about this after seeing Kyles thread on North Berwick.  As one who's been kicking around this site for a few years, it seems (and this may be my perception only) that a lot of US style green complexes which don't allow the run up approach shot on par 4s and par 5s are summarily critized as a result.  You know something that looks kinda like this:



It also seems that many have chimed in on the virtues of UK golf in allowing these type of shots and being a "role model" for "golf as it should be".

However when i see pictures like this...it makes me wonder.  How is this is in anyway accomadating of the run up shot?  And heaven forbid the hole is playing downwind, you have no choice but to blow the approach shot over the green.  And this isn't the only hole where one must play an aerial approach on this course either.. 



So it seems this is not a rare implementation as I can think of several holes that have something like this, just off the top of my head.  TOC #1, KingsBarns #18, a few holes at Carnoustie, etc as well as countless other pics I've seen over the years in various course reviews that I can't recall thier names.  (Sorry I've never been to the UK  )

So my question is, how often do you find holes like this where the aerial shot is not only demanded, but really the only way to play the hole?  At least with the 1st picture, recovery is still possible from a bunker right?  Or is this a case of homerism where links courses are "OK" to do things like this but parkland American style courses shouldn't? 

Let the fur fly!! 

[Adam Lawrence]

Not often is the answer. Consider TOC - you have the burn in front of the first green and there are several others where an aerial approach, if you can control the ball, is a preferable choice - but you can happily run the ball through the swale in front of the fifth, or the Valley of Sin, if you want to.

Frequent use of fronting hazards is a modern thing in the UK, and associated with courses that are 'American-style' (which is how the Belfry was described in its early years).

[Jud Tigerman]

Much less than on almost every U.S. course.  Although there are plenty of holes in the states that could be played on the ground, they are invariably unplayable on the ground as the course is inevitably overwatered so as to be green and thus considered "well conditioned" by the uneducated slobs who are too busy fiddling with their GPS devices and cellphones to notice anyway....

[Mark Pearce]

Kalen,

I'm disappointed.  I was expecting a picture of the Pit.

[David_Tepper]

Kalen -

At Royal Dornoch, there are only 3 or 4 holes where you have to hit an aerial shot to the green. Two of those holes are par-3's.
At Golspie, there are only 2 or 3 holes that require an aerial shot. Again, 2 of those holes at par 3's.

DT

[Kalen Braley]

David,

Those are interesting numbers because I just went thru my last 3 rounds that I played here in Utah.

Course 1 - 4 holes required aerieal approach, 2 of which were par 3s
Course 2 - 4 holes required aerieal approach, 3 of which were par 3s
Course 3 - 3 holes one of which is a par 3.

Now I know these are some very teeny sample sizes by both you and myself, but perhaps the "UK courses being betters at this thing" is just a GCA.com myth?

Granted I'm guessing someone who lives in Arizona and plays desert golf mostly is going to come on and makes these numbers bump up a little higher! 

[Bill_McBride]

Kalen,

I'm disappointed.  I was expecting a picture of the Pit.

 

Kalen, there are relatively few holes in the UK where you can't run it up.  If you can't, you think of something else to do, right?

For example, it's a lot easier to get up and down for par from behind that that hole you showed (#7 NB) than from the burn!  The same holds true on the Redan #15 NB, although there you can run the ball up if you can thread it through the bunkers.  The easiest par is chipping from behind.

[Donal OCeallaigh]

Kalen:

Fairly often in my opinion. You also have the 16th at Turnberry. The are two holes at Dunfanaghy (#2 and #13) in Ireland where a ditch lies just in front of the green. Im sure there are many examples. But in most cases, as in your second picture from North Berwick, recovery is possible from the back of the green or further beyond in the rough.

Dónal.

[Mark Pearce]

Of course the thing nobody has mentioned is F&F.  In the UK you'll have firm fairways and grass which allows the run up.  Not true with Bermuda grass or over watered soft fairways.

[Kalen Braley]

Bill and Donal,

This is about the run-up shot, not recovery options!!   Focus!!!

If we want to talk recovery, I'd much rather do so from a greenside bunker than a green side burn or a road!!

Besides as Jack Nicklaus said in an instructional article, missing long is usually not that bad on any course, much less a links course so I don't see that as anything unique to links courses.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill and Donal,

This is about the run-up shot, not recovery options!!   Focus!!!

If we want to talk recovery, I'd much rather do so from a greenside bunker than a green side burn or a road!!

Besides as Jack Nicklaus said in an instructional article, missing long is usually not that bad on any course, much less a links course so I don't see that as anything unique to links courses.

Kalen, focus, how can there be a run up shot if there is a burn hard up against the front of the green?

What was the question again?

[Kalen Braley]

Of course the thing nobody has mentioned is F&F.  In the UK you'll have firm fairways and grass which allows the run up.  Not true with Bermuda grass or over watered soft fairways.

Mark,

Very nice point....but then again in many cases we are talking local issues with climate.  Try doing fast and firm in Utah in the middle of the summer.... you'll get fast and firm alright because your fairways will be dead in a week.  Or try running fescue in Florida and see how that works out!!

No doubt the UK has some unique year round weather that allow for minimal watering without losing everything.  But I agree with your general point, American courses do overwater....but the vast majority are not that bad where one couldn't take a 5 iron and try a low running approach to a green!!

[Jud Tigerman]

Kalen,

1.  Many more holes are designed for the ground game in the U.K. than here.

2. Multiply this by the ratio of courses in the U.K. that play with firm/fast conditions so as to actually make the shot interesting/allowable vs. those in the states that play f/f.

3. Call your friendly travel agent now...

4. in lieu of 3 above, get to Bandon Dunes ASAP for the U.S. equivalent....

[Kalen Braley]

Bill and Donal,

This is about the run-up shot, not recovery options!!   Focus!!!

If we want to talk recovery, I'd much rather do so from a greenside bunker than a green side burn or a road!!

Besides as Jack Nicklaus said in an instructional article, missing long is usually not that bad on any course, much less a links course so I don't see that as anything unique to links courses.

Kalen, focus, how can there be a run up shot if there is a burn hard up against the front of the green?

What was the question again?

Bill thats exactly my point, there is no run up shot, meaning the hole plays 1 dimensionally... a feature American courses get criticzed for time and time again.

The question is, how often is that kind of scenario found on courses in the UK because the conventional wisdom is "not very often"?  However I'm guessing there are almost just as many aerial only shot requirements on your average UK course as there are on the average American course...but its just a guess!!

[Mark Pearce]

Kalen,

Isn't that the point?  The (vast) majority of UK courses, in season, will be fast and firm.  Our climate and grasses allow that.  That isn't the case in most of the US (or maintenance won't allow F&F), so the run up shot is not relevant.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill and Donal,

This is about the run-up shot, not recovery options!!   Focus!!!

If we want to talk recovery, I'd much rather do so from a greenside bunker than a green side burn or a road!!

Besides as Jack Nicklaus said in an instructional article, missing long is usually not that bad on any course, much less a links course so I don't see that as anything unique to links courses.

Kalen, focus, how can there be a run up shot if there is a burn hard up against the front of the green?

What was the question again?

Bill thats exactly my point, there is no run up shot, meaning the hole plays 1 dimensionally... a feature American courses get criticzed for time and time again.

The question is, how often is that kind of scenario found on courses in the UK because the conventional wisdom is "not very often"?  However I'm guessing there are almost just as many aerial only shot requirements on your average UK course as there are on the average American course...but its just a guess!!

Not in my experience.  I usually see one or two a round.  Those courses are designed to firm, and to be playable for golfers of all levels.

With regard to overwatered conditions in the US, how often do you pull that 5-iron from 40 yards instead of that LW?  Honestly now!

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

As a not very long hitting high capper, you would be surprised how many run-up shots I actually play into greens because usually...

1)  I'm not close enough to hit a 7 iron or shorter to get something to stick.
2)  I'm in the weeds or rough so I play a low flighted ball that will run up somewhere near the green, hopefully on.

Perhaps my experience is unusual to many of the "driver/short iron" gougers on this web site...but as a 19-20 I can gurantee I'm a lot closer to the average golfer who is a 15-16 than those who are mid and low single digit handis.  I hit these kind of shots because I have to.

And in my experience the vast majority of golf holes I play here in US allow some type of run up shot, even if it isn't ideal.


Bill,

Its true I don't pitch with a 5 iron 40 yards off the green, but I've played at Bandon and I dind't do it there either.  I do use a PW usually from that distance because I find it tough to get consistent contact with a SW or more highly lofted club.

[Jon Wiggett]

Kalen,

I have very little experience of golf in the US but from what I have seen there is great variety in american courses. I think that when most people (here in europe anyway) talk about an american style course they are talking about the typical florida layout with lots of lofted approach shots being required. Is this type of course the prevalent type of course in the US? I am not so sure. What is certain is that american golf has suffered from an overly dominant trend towards the visual rather than the playing qualities of the golf course.

Kalen,

the PW is a highly lofted club. Put in a bit of practice with the 7 or 8 iron (maybe even the 5 iron or putter ) in order to be able to use them okay before you play a course such as Bandon.

[Scott Warren]

Kalen,

A fair question, but I find it hard to believe that in a Utah summer, it's a choice between mudballs and dead grass. And I say that as one who has played all his life through low humidity 40 degree Sydney summers.

To your question about fronting burns on UK links, those I am personally familiar with (TOC 1, North Berwick 7, Deal 1, Trevose 17) have two key features in common:

1. They are typically aproached with a short iron or wedge.
2. They feature reasonably/extremely deep greens.

Greens that cannot be accessed via the ground game on UK links are very much the exception (which was driven home to me just now when I tried to think of links holes with water hard up on the front of the green and managed to count four, out of all the links courses I have played/walked).

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

I have very little experience of golf in the US but from what I have seen there is great variety in american courses. I think that when most people (here in europe anyway) talk about an american style course they are talking about the typical florida layout with lots of lofted approach shots being required. Is this type of course the prevalent type of course in the US? I am not so sure. What is certain is that american golf has suffered from an overly dominant trend towards the visual rather than the playing qualities of the golf course.

Kalen,

the PW is a highly lofted club. Put in a bit of practice with the 7 or 8 iron (maybe even the 5 iron or putter ) in order to be able to use them okay before you play a course such as Bandon.

Jon,

My basis comes from playing out West, which is where I've played the vast majority of my golf, so I've never experienced Florida golf per se.

Its just been my percption that UK golf has just as many of these "aerial or nothing" approaches in the reviews I've seen and was mostly just curious why American courses only tend to get stuck with that stigma when it exists everywhere.  Because as pointed out, a ground approach "could be played" on most holed I've played, even if its not the best way to score well. 

In fact, a case could even be made that a course with overly firm greens have less options because the high aerial shot that lands on the green has no chance of holding for the average joe.  So on one level, it could be said that the "ground game" is mandated to have any kind of success.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

A fair question, but I find it hard to believe that in a Utah summer, it's a choice between mudballs and dead grass. And I say that as one who has played all his life through low humidity 40 degree Sydney summers.

To your question about fronting burns on UK links, those I am personally familiar with (TOC 1, North Berwick 7, Deal 1, Trevose 17) have two key features in common:

1. They are typically aproached with a short iron or wedge.
2. They feature reasonably/extremely deep greens.

Greens that cannot be accessed via the ground game on UK links are very much the exception (which was driven home to me just now when I tried to think of links holes with water hard up on the front of the green and managed to count four, out of all the links courses I have played/walked).

Scott,

Its not a choice between mudballs or dead, but more often than not fairways and greens are soft'ish. I've found very few courses that are firm here in summer due to I suspect fear of losing the grass in high heat, especially greens.  As such all the best golf is usually found in the fall when temps are dropping and the ground is firming up with the cooler temps.

[Donal OCeallaigh]

Bill and Donal,

This is about the run-up shot, not recovery options!!   Focus!!!

Grrrrrrrrrrr   

Kalen, there are many examples of holes like the one a NB, but we're not talking huge numbers. I can only think of a few courses where a burn/drain/ditch is directly in front of the green. It's still unusual in the UK&I, when you consider all the courses there are.

There are many myths about links courses and those that play on them. How often have I seen someone running a shot in from 100 yds? Hardly ever. My approach in fast and firm conditions is to take a PW from 100 yards and play an easy shot, and just land it 5-10 yards short of the green. It's much the same from 150 yds. It's in the area of recovery where most bump and run shots are played. Some people would have you believe that we're running in shots from all distances and angles. It's a load of cobblers! We're not the links purists that we like to think we are.

Most links courses in Ireland will only be fast and firm for a 4-8 week period in the summer, and this occurs once every 5-7 years if we're lucky. The summers are usually quite wet. I can count the number of good summers that I've experienced in my life on one hand.

Dónal.

[Scott Warren]

  Because as pointed out, a ground approach "could be played" on most holed I've played, even if its not the best way to score well. 

Kalen,

I asked an extremely well-travelled American GCAer the other day at what % of US courses I could hit a low punch 7i, land it 10m short and run it onto the green. His reply was that it was an option at 5-10% of courses.

[Bill_McBride]

  Because as pointed out, a ground approach "could be played" on most holed I've played, even if its not the best way to score well. 

Kalen,

I asked an extremely well-travelled American GCAer the other day at what % of US courses I could hit a low punch 7i, land it 10m short and run it onto the green. His reply was that it was an option at 5-10% of courses.

Scott, and how many holes on those 5-10%?

[Bill_McBride]

Mark,

As a not very long hitting high capper, you would be surprised how many run-up shots I actually play into greens because usually...

1)  I'm not close enough to hit a 7 iron or shorter to get something to stick.
2)  I'm in the weeds or rough so I play a low flighted ball that will run up somewhere near the green, hopefully on.

Perhaps my experience is unusual to many of the "driver/short iron" gougers on this web site...but as a 19-20 I can gurantee I'm a lot closer to the average golfer who is a 15-16 than those who are mid and low single digit handis.  I hit these kind of shots because I have to.

And in my experience the vast majority of golf holes I play here in US allow some type of run up shot, even if it isn't ideal.


Bill,

Its true I don't pitch with a 5 iron 40 yards off the green, but I've played at Bandon and I dind't do it there either.  I do use a PW usually from that distance because I find it tough to get consistent contact with a SW or more highly lofted club.

Kalen, you don't "pitch" with a 5-iron, you "chip" or "bump."  It's a totally different kind of play and usually requires 5,6,7 iron or putter.  It's fun to try to judge how far the ball will roll after you chip to it where you want it to start rolling.  Which could be 30 yards in front of the green, but seldom in the US with our wet surrounds.

[Sean Arble]

Kalen

You are barking up the wrong tree.  I have played a great many years in the US and UK.  There is no comparison as to the general rule of the ground game.  Generally, in the UK, it is a goer.  Generally in the States, it isn't a goer.  Whatever the reasons for this are open to debate, but the main premise is without any shred of a doubt true.  That said, how Donal describes the situation is generally true.  However, in my experience, and what is rarely talked about, on a proper f&f course the ground game sparkles when playing into the wind.  The guy that can hit low cuts and hooks into a good head wind is going to be supreme.  You would be amazed at how far a guy who can't carry the ball 200 yards can hit it - and the best ones are damn accurate.  Its a totally different game and it really brings home the meaning of why width is important.  On narrow courses this sort of play is all but impossible and once you see it in action - more is the pity.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Bill and Donal,

This is about the run-up shot, not recovery options!!   Focus!!!

Grrrrrrrrrrr   

Kalen, there are many examples of holes like the one a NB, but we're not talking huge numbers. I can only think of a few courses where a burn/drain/ditch is directly in front of the green. It's still unusual in the UK&I, when you consider all the courses there are.

There are many myths about links courses and those that play on them. How often have I seen someone running a shot in from 100 yds? Hardly ever. My approach in fast and firm conditions is to take a PW from 100 yards and play an easy shot, and just land it 5-10 yards short of the green. It's much the same from 150 yds. It's in the area of recovery where most bump and run shots are played. Some people would have you believe that we're running in shots from all distances and angles. It's a load of cobblers! We're not the links purists that we like to think we are.

Most links courses in Ireland will only be fast and firm for a 4-8 week period in the summer, and this occurs once every 5-7 years if we're lucky. The summers are usually quite wet. I can count the number of good summers that I've experienced in my life on one hand.

Dónal.

Donal,

Well said and interesting comments.  So it would seem when people talk about the fast and firm of the UK courses its more about landing the ball short of the green and running up as opposed to actually hitting shots that are a low lower.

P.S.  Don't get me wrong I think its fun to hit those low runners as if I have a 6 iron in my hand or more,  its not going to go very high.  But I've hit plenty of 3-4 irons that still run 10-30 yards onto a green even when conditions are on the soft side! 


Bill,

Yes i did know the difference between the terms...pardon me for not getting the usage correct and up to your standards!! 

[Jud Tigerman]

Sean,
Well said. I've been nashing my teeth over this thread until you said it for all of us. Must be that u.k. Educational system

[Kalen Braley]

  Because as pointed out, a ground approach "could be played" on most holed I've played, even if its not the best way to score well. 

Kalen,

I asked an extremely well-travelled American GCAer the other day at what % of US courses I could hit a low punch 7i, land it 10m short and run it onto the green. His reply was that it was an option at 5-10% of courses.

Scott,

This is kind of my point.

How about this? Why don't you ask the same GCA'er at what % of UK courses can you land a low punch 7i on the green and have it stay on the green? Would that answer be 5-10% as well?

Don't get me wrong, I understand why f&f is more attractive with all the guesswork and humps and bumps that must be accounted for, its fun I get it.  But why is one style thrown under the bus for only having 1 option available (the high aerial shot that lands on the green), when in reality playing links courses limits folks in the same way in that landing it on the green is taken away from them and only 1 style (land it short of the green) will work?

I'm just trying to understand the arbitraty nature of why target style golf is abused as being one dimenisional because you are forced to land it on the green, when links golf can often be the same in that you must land it short of the green.  Both styles are forced on you, they both exclude the others playing style!

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen

You are barking up the wrong tree.  I have played a great many eyars in the US and UK.  There is no comparison as to the general rule of the ground game.  Generally, in the UK, it is a goer.  Generally in the States, it isn't a goer.  Whatever the reasons for this are open to debate, but the main premise is without any shred of a doubt true.  That said, how Donal describes the situation is generally true.  However, in my experience, and what is rarely talked about, on a proper f&f course the ground game sparkles when playing into the wind.  The guy that can hit low cuts and hooks into a good head wind is going to be supreme.  You would be amazed at how far a guy who can't carry the ball 200 yards can hit it - and the best ones are damn accurate.  Its a totally different game and it really brings home the meaning of why width is important.  On narrow courses this sort of play is all but impossible and once you see it in action - more is the pity.

Ciao

Sean,

Fair enough, I won't disagree that the UK isn't more Fast and Firm...but to say its not a go-er over here is completely untrue, because I do it alot.  Sure in some cases its a no go due to a pond or bunker in front of the green but this is no different than in the UK with having a burn or bunkers in front of the green as well.

I will also agree, thats its not ideal, because an aerial game will likely produce better results...but it doesn't mean that it won't work, it just means you have to suck like me and be forced to work on those kinds of shots more!!   

P.S. Maybe my true calling is to live in the UK so I can use all these lower shots to my advantge...and the extra width would be dandy as well.  Hell over there I'd be a single digit capper!!

[David_Tepper]

Kalen -

In fact, barring very windy or burnt out conditions, you can play aerial approach shots to greens on links courses. I have played with golfers on links courses and seen them do it often. I have also seen golfers hit bump & run shots from the same spots. Either shot can be effective.

The point is that links courses, for the most part, given you more options as to what type of shot you can play. This is due primarily to both the design of the course (an open approach to the front of the green) and the firm & fast condition of the turf fronting the greens.

DT

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen -

In fact, barring very windy or burnt out conditions, you can play aerial approach shots to greens on links courses. I have played with golfers on links courses and seen them do it often. I have also seen golfers hit bump & run shots from the same spots. Either shot can be effective.

The point is that links courses, for the most part, given you more options as to what type of shot you can play. This is due primarily to both the design of the course (an open approach to the front of the green) and the firm & fast condition of the turf fronting the greens.

DT

David,

Thanks for that....I've only played a handful of true fast and firm courses and more often than not found that flying the ball on the green was an excercise in futility.  One even involved playing to a frozen solid/iced over temp green...that was a ton of fun!! 

[Ulrich Mayring]

I play a couple of shots better on firm and fast links courses, because the ball runs a long way. On soft courses I am usually short - one, being not the longest hitter to begin with and two, I seem to underestimate distances all the time. So on links courses I am usually dead-on and seem to be able to negotiate the ground contours quite nicely. However, don't count on extra width. Firm and fast also means that your ball is off the fairway very quickly. You need that extra width just to keep your good shots on the fairway

That being said, a course with only run-up shots is boring as well. A couple of aerial approaches and some forced carries should be mixed in to make for a fun round.

And, finally, you can play aerial shots on links courses if you like - just don't shoot for the middle of the green. Take one club less, execute your aerial shot properly and the ball will run-up to the flag.

Ulrich

[Scott Warren]

 Because as pointed out, a ground approach "could be played" on most holed I've played, even if its not the best way to score well.  

Kalen,

I asked an extremely well-travelled American GCAer the other day at what % of US courses I could hit a low punch 7i, land it 10m short and run it onto the green. His reply was that it was an option at 5-10% of courses.

Scott,

This is kind of my point.

How about this? Why don't you ask the same GCA'er at what % of UK courses can you land a low punch 7i on the green and have it stay on the green? Would that answer be 5-10% as well?

Don't get me wrong, I understand why f&f is more attractive with all the guesswork and humps and bumps that must be accounted for, its fun I get it.  But why is one style thrown under the bus for only having 1 option available (the high aerial shot that lands on the green), when in reality playing links courses limits folks in the same way in that landing it on the green is taken away from them and only 1 style (land it short of the green) will work?

I'm just trying to understand the arbitraty nature of why target style golf is abused as being one dimenisional because you are forced to land it on the green, when links golf can often be the same in that you must land it short of the green.  Both styles are forced on you, they both exclude the others playing style!

That would be a sensational point, were your claims true that one style of play must be adhered to on links courses (land it short and run it up).

Even on the firmest links, a mid iron played other than with a gale behind will land and check up within 8-10ft if struck well. A short iron or wedge, within 5ft. The idea that the ball is releasing 20 yards is simply not true.

The ground game and aerial game are both there to be played.

But this overlooks one massive reason for the attraction of links golf, IMO.

It's not the ground game from 150 yards out that is primarily appealing to me, it's the dozens of shots from 20-30 yards out, and from the tight lies around the green - up down and over ridges etc that make it as intoxicating as it is.

[Sean Arble]

Kalen

You are barking up the wrong tree.  I have played a great many eyars in the US and UK.  There is no comparison as to the general rule of the ground game.  Generally, in the UK, it is a goer.  Generally in the States, it isn't a goer.  Whatever the reasons for this are open to debate, but the main premise is without any shred of a doubt true.  That said, how Donal describes the situation is generally true.  However, in my experience, and what is rarely talked about, on a proper f&f course the ground game sparkles when playing into the wind.  The guy that can hit low cuts and hooks into a good head wind is going to be supreme.  You would be amazed at how far a guy who can't carry the ball 200 yards can hit it - and the best ones are damn accurate.  Its a totally different game and it really brings home the meaning of why width is important.  On narrow courses this sort of play is all but impossible and once you see it in action - more is the pity.

Ciao

Sean,

Fair enough, I won't disagree that the UK isn't more Fast and Firm...but to say its not a go-er over here is completely untrue, because I do it alot.  Sure in some cases its a no go due to a pond or bunker in front of the green but this is no different than in the UK with having a burn or bunkers in front of the green as well.

I will also agree, thats its not ideal, because an aerial game will likely produce better results...but it doesn't mean that it won't work, it just means you have to suck like me and be forced to work on those kinds of shots more!!   

P.S. Maybe my true calling is to live in the UK so I can use all these lower shots to my advantge...and the extra width would be dandy as well.  Hell over there I'd be a single digit capper!!

Kalen

When I say a no goer - I mean reasonable players would not attempt to play a low shot.  The risk/reward differential in the States compared to the UK is generally greatly reduced.  I am not in the least exaggerating - the difference in the reasonable availability is like apples and oranges - especially when I consider year round play.  It is difficult to explain to the difference, but believe me, IN GENERAL, it is huge.  So much so that I can recall folks telling me in the States that they couldn't believe I tried a runner shot when they would never even consider it.  Of course, they were right because the courses were way too soft to attempt that sort of shot - I had failed properly adjust to the conditions.  

Ciao