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[Jud Tigerman]

In the 2010 Golfweek Resort Course Rankings-Whistling Straights comes in third ahead of Pinehurst #2!!  While I am loathe to open up another ratings can of worms here, this seems a bit much for me.  Anyone disagree strongly? I can think of at least 2 questionable holes at the Straights for starters....

[Matt_Ward]

Jud:

The Straits is one of the most overrated layouts in the USA from the ones I have played. I like Pete but he's done better in other situations -- the course benefits from Lake Michigan's close proximity and that it has had a major played there with more to follow.

Someone will need to explain to me how the layout is deemed to be so great. So many of the holes are formulaic cut'n paste versions one has played / seen before from Pete.

[Michael_Hendren]

Jud:

The Straits is one of the most overrated layouts in the USA from the ones I have played. I like Pete but he's done better in other situations -- the course benefits from Lake Michigan's close proximity and that it has had a major played there with more to follow.

Someone will need to explain to me how the layout is deemed to be so great. So many of the holes are formulaic cut'n paste versions one has played / seen before from Pete.

Matt,

Please link the cut'n past holes at Whistling Straits with their predecessors at other Dye courses.  Looking forward to your reply.  Thanks.

Mike

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

The short answer is that Pete did plenty of his fine work early on -- the Straits isn't any better than a range of other courses Pete did far earlier -- frankly, The Ocean Course at Kiawah is likely the last real superstar design he has done to merit such a high placement.

If you have the opportunity review the book on Dye by Joel Zuckerman -- it spells out all the courses and frankly I see the Straits as an over-the-top "let's bulldoze it till we get it right" layout. The short holes protected by fingers of sand and H20 have already been done. Frankly the front side is just long with little real compelling architecture.

Just shows you that if you host a major and have H20 nearby you can reap a big time bonanza in terms of overall ratings.

[Tom_Doak]

I am not a big fan of Whistling Straits, and I doubt this result would happen if GOLFWEEK was actually comparing the courses head to head, instead of pasting together the results of their separate Modern and Classic lists.

But, I could also see it as Pinehurst moving down due to neglect, more than Whistling Straits coming up.

[Jud Tigerman]

TomD,

As an aside, congrats on the #1 Residential Ranking for R.C.C.C.! How about an outing for prospective GCA buyers?!  Seriously, re-Pinehurst and the C & C renovation plan, I'd be very interested to here your comments regarding this.....What obviously needs to be done? Is this a good job to even have? Will they likely add their " 2 cents" anywhere?

[Mac Plumart]

Gents...

I will be playing Pinehurst #2 in May for the first time.  I've heard a lot about some of the issues with the course.  Am I going get a true sense of what the course is all about or will is it ruined?  What do I have to be aware of, etc?

To make a comment regarding this thread specifically, I made a conscience decision to put a hold on Whistling Straits and move up course like #2 due to their historical significance.  So from a laymans perspective #2 is more "important" for me to play, regardless of its rankings.  Even though Lawsonia could be played along with the 4 courses in the Kohler family of courses.

[Matt_Ward]

Jud:

The bigger question is whether either #2 or The Straits are worth the tariff even WHEN they are in tip top shape ?

Getting the opportunioty to play there is a king's ransome plus the added "benefit" in having to creep and crawl along the usualy close to six hour round.

Mac:

Skip it and save the $$ from #2 if less than ideal ... you will be clipped of serious $$ when you have other options in and around the Southern Pines / Pinehurst area.

[Tom_Doak]

Jud:

The work at Pinehurst is a matter of realigning the fairways so that the strategic corners next to the fairway bunkers are back in play.  That would be almost impossible to accomplish if the fairways all stay at 27 yards or whatever they are, but I think Bill and Ben will convince Mike Davis that the fairways could be 35 yards wide in some spots to restore the strategy, particularly if they would be backing off their drivers to gain those angles.

The other part of it is restoring the wire-grass and sand in the roughs instead of the plain Bermuda carpet that's there now.  That's just a matter of being willing to tear it up and look under repair for a while, while you are charging people $350 or whatever it is to play.

[Jud Tigerman]

Matt,

no question in terms of value...nothing tops Lawsonia in that regard.  And I'll be going to Bandon Dunes quite a few times before I head back to either, but in tip top shape, I think If I'm going to pony up, I'd take #2 certainly over the Straights, and perhaps even over Pebble....

[Matt_Ward]

Jud, et al:

#2 is only worth playing when the elements that Doak articulated are in place. Otherwise, one's time there is wasted. The place needs to have 40-50 yard fairway widths and let the firmness do the rest. The charges being asked for both #2 and The Straits are beyond the means of most people and frankly short of #2 being in peak presentation style it's not worth it. Like you said a visit to Lawsonia works very well -- ditto the other choices one has in and around the greater Southern Pines / Pinehurst area.

Unfortunately, too many people are caught up in the "name" thing with courses and when you host majors -- better yet when coupled with H20 in close proximity you get a spike in your overall standing.

[Jud Tigerman]

Matt-

I'm definitely with you on the H2O thing.  A nice view is great, but unless it's in play (i.e. #8 at Pebble), has little or nothing to do with the quality of the course and IMHO is vastly overly influential in people's ratings/perceptions.  More relevent is the wind component of a seaside course....

[Jaeger Kovich]

I just got back from #2 less than a week ago, and had a great first experience there. After reading quite a bit about the place, walking the course, then playing it the next day, one can tell that it isn't exactly playing up to its full potential, but it is still an all world golf course, and definitely worth a visit... especially this time of year when the rates are reasonable. I payed under 200$.

While playing you will notice how some of the bunkers are now a good 5-7 yards off the fairway, and where the rough is hiding some of the ground contours. The greens are still the same greens though, and as the most important part of any course, these 18 crowned, angled, and undulating surfaces are the heart and soul of the course.

A little birdie told me that he had a conversation with Mike Davis, and it was Davis who told the C and C crew that he would only hire them if they widened the fairways and added waste areas, not the other way around... my jaw dropped, and made him repeat that it was the USGA who asked for more width!

[Pat Craig]

Matt-

I'm definitely with you on the H2O thing.  A nice view is great, but unless it's in play (i.e. #8 at Pebble), has little or nothing to do with the quality of the course and IMHO is vastly overly influential in people's ratings/perceptions.  More relevent is the wind component of a seaside course....

The lake comes into play on WS multiple times.

[Matt_Ward]

I'd be curious to know from those who have played The Straits and if they did like it -- what is the driving reason for their support of it?

Frankly, Pete has done far better work in my mind elsewhere -- The Straits has some interesting holes -- but it's often times the short holes -- see the two par-3's on the inner half -- that are quite compelling.

Jaeger:

When you say #2 is "all world" can you tell me how if it was not up to its full potential it can be deemed to be at the highest of high levels. Were you simply cutting the course a break because of past reputation?

In regards to what the USGA will do -- I am quite confident Mike Davis will do what he has done so well with other past US Open sites.


Jud:

Good point on the wind dimension. I just wonder how raters -- those from Golfweek -- see The Straits when other more noted Dye courses languish behind it.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Matt - Is there nothing you wouldn't change at TOC, Shinny, Merion, CPC, PV, Augusta, WFW etc? Are the Farnese Ceiling and Sistine Chapel not timeless masterpeices when they are in need of a cleaning and basic upkeep?

In the case of #2 everything is right there in the ground, very little needs to be/will be done. Some fairway reclaimation and reintroduction of some natural waste area. To me, it is the greens and approaches which make #2 stand apart from 99% of the golf courses out there, and when you play it from the center of the fairway (like myself !) then it plays like the "all world" golf course it is... good question though.

Actually, I must say, when I first walked all 18 the night before I played it, I wouldn't have put it in the all world category. But after playing it the next day, and really experiencing the way the ball moves and reacts to the greens, it is clearly a 10 in my book.

[Matt_Ward]

Jaeger:

The issue -- which you missed -- is that judgement of courses is taken on how they are -- not on how they might be if such and such thing(s) are done.

Let me point out I played #2 numerous times starting with my days at Carolina and on return visits. I'm a big fan when it's prepared as it should be. The place has had an uneven past and if those entrusted with the course really don't pay attention then it's high water mark as a world class layout is in danger of being lost.

You say only "basic upkeep" is needed -- it's more than that at #2. The fairways need to be widened and the overall fast & firm conditions need to be more of a daily outcome not just a ritual only for the key events. For what the folks charge to play there -- it's really obscene to be frank -- the place needs to take a few bumps down the ratings scale for anything of consequence to happen.

I can only hope someone as skilled as Mike Davis will engage C&C to do that but it's more than just how it plays for the US Open for a one week deal.

[Mike Wagner]

I wouldn't pay $400 (maybe once on a special trip), but I love the Straits course.  Really, what's not to like?  F/F conditions, linksy, water, some absolutely great holes, some not as great, it's tough, there's wind, there's no carts, you've got to strike the ball extremely well, and hell, there's sheep out walking with you!

It's not in my top 5 favorites, but I definitely enjoy it for all those reasons.

I'll take any of the Bandon courses over WS every time, but I still like it.

[Andy Troeger]

Personally, if Blackwolf Run and Whistling Straits were switched I would think both ratings would be about right.

I'd also switch Red Sky Norman with Fazio--I'm not sure what GolfWeek sees in the Fazio to put it ahead of the Norman which I would much rather play.

Additionally I'll take the old classic Ross Course at French Lick over the new Dye layout.

Regarding Whistling Straits I agree with much of Mike W.'s comment. I wouldn't pay $400 to play it again and its a little too high on most of these lists for my liking, but overall there's a heck of a lot to like out there. It definitely rises above most of Pete Dye's other work post-1990 which I agree hasn't been as good as his earlier work. #5 has been discussed and #18 is rather silly IMO but the other 16 holes stand up very well for themselves.

[Matt_Ward]

In this day and age I see no reason why a "value" element can't be included when public / resort layouts are added to the mix. As those who have weighed in - The Straits is no value for what it charges -- I personally believe the "value" component would provide a needed element so that when public / resort ratings are evaluated.

Frankly, if one were to throw such an element forward it would provide a leveling component that provides a guide to really weigh whether a visit is worth it or not.

No doubt for the millionaires on this site that might not matter a wit.

[Joel Zuckerman]

IMO, all of you jaded world travelers are missing a key element in the greatness and unique qualities of WS.  A large percentage of Kohler visitors have never played in the UK, and have never seen, much less played, a true links course.  (Not that I'm suggesting WS is a true links course.)

Look at it from this perspective:  If your entire golf experience had been played out on parkland-style courses, like many Americans, how blown away, how intimidated, would you be when walking to the first tee of WS, and seeing the golf panorama awaiting you that very first time?  I would imagine most neophytes would have their heart absolutely hammering in their chest when they pegged the ball on that opening tee.

WS is an incredible experience, and once again IMO, some of the holes--the par-5 11th, the superb par-3 17th, and the finisher, are fantastic.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

You missed the issue I raised earlier -- how does The Straits go beyond what Pete has done previously.

Frankly, The Ocean Course and The Golf Club, to name just two are beyond what you see in WI. I don't doubt there are some stellar holes but when you add up the totality of what's there it comes from the proximity of Lake Michigan and all the mindless bunkers and mounds that are man-created on such a featureless property prior to the course.

It also doesn't hurt to have a major played there -- with more to come.

[Jud Tigerman]

Joel,

Lawsonia is about an hour from Kohler and provides just as much of a "linksy" f/f feel as the straights, minus the lake and sheep and about $300 (and oh yeah, all that dirt that was moved)...

[jim_lewis]

Matt:

I object to considering price when judging a golf course. What is too expensive or one may not be for another. It depends on whose paying. I never judge for another what they can afford or how they choose to spend their money(except for my wife). I know some people who live in a rented mobile home but have a big new pickup and an expensive motercycle. Their priorities are different from mine, but that doesn't make them wrong. I'm pretty sure that there are people playing #2 and Pebble Beach who "can't afford it". For them, I suppose it must be worth it.

By the way, when was the last time you played #2? I assume it must have been fairly recently, since I know that you, of all people, would not comment on the maintenance of a course you have not seen lately.

Jim Lewis
 

[Mike Wagner]

Matt,

Does WS need to go beyond what Pete has done in the past in order to be a great course?  Seriously, I would find it EXTREMELY difficult to find someone who could honestly say they didn't think WS was a great course.  I think we get to a point where we pick apart too many things around here.  It's one hell of an experience, isn't it?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The issue for me is that Pete Dye was always a revolutionary architect -- his courses defied normal convention - the man himself said as much as when getting started in the business and making sure his way would be different from that of what RTJ was doing at that time.

Mike, I don't know the number of different Dye courses you have played. If your portfolio of his courses is a small one -- I can perfectly see why you would hold The Straits in such high regard. I didn't say it wasn't a fine course but for it be ahead of the other earlier works of Dye doesn't hold water for me. I have played a good array of Pete's courses and his work at The Golf Club and The Ocean Course, to name just two, have more compelling architecture than what The Straits provides.

Frankly, The Straits is a fill-in-the-blanks course that was overdone with a ton of bunkers -- many of which are mere set decorations with little real consequence. You also have the eye-candy of Lake Michigan and the fact that a major has already been held there with others to follow.

Mike, the reason we pick apart things on the site is to see if the different courses really hold up when rigorous anlalysis is applied. I like The Straits but not for a top ten placement.

[jim_lewis]

Matt:

When I saw you had posted, I was hoping you had responded to my post two notches up.

Jim

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

I was in Columbia, SC about 3-4 weeks ago to see my alma mater play and on my way back to Jersey I played #2. I was not impressed at all -- fortunately, I did not have to pay the full tariff. Jim, I am a huge fan of #2 and have said so many times -- PROVIDED -- the people there understand that you can't dig into people's pockets and have a product that isn't in top tier form. What's wrong with that? My God, the place is now charging nearly $400 to play and the nature of the design should reflect the core qualities that Ross articulated.

Jim, I think "value" should be thrown into the mix -- not as a prime judgement category but as a criteria to weigh. Far too often Jim the places charging the highest of prices are simply nailing those who play there because of the "reputation" element. Far too many times the conditioning and presentation are not in line with the price. In sum -- it's a bait and switch tactic.

I can understand your disagreement but believe the "value" element would be another criteria that would give people of modest means a real sense on whether or not to make the effort to play there.

[Joel Zuckerman]

I have played pretty much every Dye Course of consequence; a couple of early designs escaped my attention (people talk fondly about Radrick Farms in Michigan, which I missed) but I have visited/played all the "name" Dye Designs.

I think WS is absolutely great, as is the River Course at Kohler.  I don't feel qualified to say that it's "better", "worse," "more derivative," than the Ocean Course, Harbour Town, PD GC, etc.  I just think that it's a thrill to play, and I feel fortunate that I have played it 3 times to date.  (Including most recently with occasional DG participant and long-bomber Shane Wright)

Personally speaking, my favorite Dye designs are The Honors, The Golf Club and PD GC, but some of that assessment has to do with the club ambience as well as the actual golf courses.   WS to me is great though, on par with his other big-time resort courses.

[Matt MacIver]

No one has mentioned those famous turtle-back greens at #2 yet - aren't THEY the real reason the course is unique?  The wide fairways are no doubt important - critical? - to making it a top tier course (let's say a Doak 10), but isn't the current condition of the course enough to make it say a 9, or 8?  If so, isn't that alone enough to warrant study - price notwithstanding? 

[Adam Clayman]

Is it the term judge\judgement or the concept that stick out? Who honesly approaches their round with that focus? Just seems odd.