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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #300 on: December 03, 2009, 11:23:59 PM »
Mac,

My interest has never been to reach some preconceived conclusion, or to win, and I don't think I have all the answers.  Like you I am here to find and analyze the facts.  In this regard, I am dormy and always will be.   So long as I ultimately come to a better understanding of what actually happened, I cannot lose.  

I don't think you have had to wade through much other than facts and analysis from me lately, at least I hope you haven't.  

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #301 on: December 04, 2009, 08:18:17 AM »
David...

I agree with you and maybe I should clarify my point.

What you guys are brining to the table in terms of debate is more interesting and educational than you think it is because of the depth of the knowledge. 

You might think that you are discussing point "x" but readers are learning about points x, y, and z.

Does that make sense?  I am giving you all a compliment and urging you all to keep posting and debating regardless of arguments.  I mentioned previously about Mackenzie and Colt arguing.  It happens, no problem.  Keep the knowledge flowing.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

TEPaul

Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #302 on: December 04, 2009, 08:57:39 AM »
"Tom,
Could that be a product of mowing patterns and not design?  I have no clue as I've not seen the hole."


JC:

That's a good question, but with Merion's 17th I don't think the mowing patterns on the area before the actual raised level of the putting green has much to do with it even though there is some green space before the upslope to the green and the upslope itself which is very large and steep is also green space and I think it always has been. That is not the case originally on any Macdonald/Raynor green that we know about. It seems now from some good recent research from various people including Tony Pioppi that all Macdonald/Raynor biarritzes had fairway cut throughout the area before the swale as well as throughout the swale and up until it got to the flat portion after the swale where green space began.

That would be mowing patterns but my point is I have never seen a Macdonald/Raynor biarritz that has so much space before the upslope that is SO MUCH LOWER than the green space behind the upslope as is the case on Merion's 17th. At most all other flat land biarritzes I've ever seen that 30 or so yards before the swale is at about the same level as the green space behind the swale and this goes directly to playability and shot options because it is so much easier to land the ball in that area and run it through the swale and up onto the greenspace behind the swale than it ever has been on Merion's 17th.

Hope that helps.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #303 on: December 04, 2009, 03:00:35 PM »
Here's the updated list...

Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Golf Courses

St. Andrews (Old)…no concrete evidence details when golf was first played on The Old Course; perhaps 1441, 1552, 1574.  Regardless, it is a timeless gem and first “great” muni…course can be played forwards and backwards

Royal Blackheath…1608…first golf course in England

Royal Calcutta...1829…oldest golf course outside the British Isles

North Berwick…1832…first golf course to allow women…the original Redan

Westward Ho!...1864…first links course in England

Hoylake…1869…influential English golf course

The Country Club…1882 (1895?)…first country club

Le Phare Golf Course in Biarritz France…1888…home of the “Chasm” hole, potentially the predecessor of the Biarritz hole design

Hotel Champlain on Bluff Point…1890…first American resort course

The Machrie...1891…first British Isles resort course

Kelvinside…1984…first golf/residential course

Van Courtland Park…1895…first U.S. muni

Franklin Park…1897…first very good U.S. public golf course

Sunningdale (Old)…1901…one of the first great heathland courses, also one of the first courses to be formed from cleared land and whose course was grown from seed
--It should be mentioned that New Zealand G.C. was cleared and groomed in 1893
--And Woking was perhaps the first heathlands course 1893
---And Huntercombe was another earlier great heathlands course 1901

Springhaven Club…1903…first course laid out by a female (Ida Dixon)

Princes Golf Club at Sandwich…1904…UK course designed specifically for the Haskell golf ball

Chicago Golf Club, Garden City Golf Club, and Myopia…1895-1900, represent some of the significant early American golf courses

Pinehurst…1907…a great and historical golf resort…known for its shell-backed greens

National Golf Links…1911…the first world class course in America; a watershed moment in American golf course architecture…used classic British Isle courses for ideas for holes on the course

Merion…1912 (or 1914)…first 36 hole golf club in the U.S.

St. George’s Hill…1913…great gated housing/residential combined development

Lido…1914…first “mega-expensive” golf development that included ground building, its disappearance was also significant


1914-1918…World War I


Mountain Lake…1915…first American golf/residential combined development

Oakmont…1916-1927…our work suggests the course transformed to greatness during this time frame, coinciding with EMIL LOEFFLER becoming head greenskeeper…known for its “penal” architecture and bunkering...and their weighted furrow bunker rakes.

Pine Valley…1918…a great “collaborative” golf course

Pebble Beach…1919…first course to have piped irrigation to all 18 holes

Mid-Ocean…1921…great “tropical” golf course

Jasper Park…1925…first great mountain golf course

Yale…1926…one of the first great heavy construction golf courses



1929-1932 (1939)…Great Depression



Tokyo GC and Hirono…1932…great Japanese golf courses

Augusta National…1933…first golf course designed for spectator/tournament golf

Bethpage State Park...1935…historical course/golf complex built with Public Works Administration money which was provided by the government to help combat the Great Depression.  Other courses of note regarding the P.W.A. were: Prairie Dunes, Ohio State GC, Indian Canyon, Memorial Park, North Fulton, Split Rock, and Mark Twain.


1940-1945…World War II


Peachtree Golf Club…1948…first great RTJ course…big/elongated teeing areas, big greens

Dunes Golf & Beach…1949…first course to use a template to aid real estate sales (RTJ)

Desert Forest…1962…first desert golf course

Victoria Golf Course…1962…first landfill golf course

The Golf Club…1967…minimalist golf course in the era of RTJ Maximism

Harbour Town…1967…another counter to RTJ

Shadow Creek…1989…ultimate expression of mans power to create; it is a lush oasis in the middle of desert waste land

Sandhills…1994…minimalist, first “build it and they will come” course

Bandon Dunes Complex…1999…??

Machrihanish Dunes…2009…minimalist golf course with minimalist maintenance



As always, thoughts, critiques, comments are welcome.


Should something be removed, should something be added?


Anyway, thus far…here is what I/we got.



Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #304 on: December 04, 2009, 03:12:20 PM »
Merion…1912 (or 1914)…first 36 hole golf club in the U.S.

A number of sources, including some from within Merion, reported that he old course closed at the time the East opened.    Tom and Wayne have claimed differently but they have never produced any verifiable facts to support the claim.   I don't care one way or another when the old course closed, but if you are going to include the 1912 date on your list it ought to be backed up by verifiable facts.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 03:40:27 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #305 on: December 04, 2009, 03:31:06 PM »
"Jasper Park…1925…first great mountain golf course"

Mac, I note you state "great" mountain course.  There was actually golf at Banff starting in 1911 but there is no question ST did Jasper and then moved on to build the present Banff course in 1926.  As for great mountain golf on the pre Thompson Banff layout, I doubt it was great but it was there!
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #306 on: December 04, 2009, 03:38:48 PM »
Dale...

Interesting.  using the term "great" is tricky.  I am discussing a great hole on the Feeling a golf course thread.  Do you have any thoughts on the use of the term great to describe a course or a hole?

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ryan Admussen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #307 on: December 04, 2009, 04:21:20 PM »
"Jasper Park…1925…first great mountain golf course"

Mac, I note you state "great" mountain course.  There was actually golf at Banff starting in 1911 but there is no question ST did Jasper and then moved on to build the present Banff course in 1926.  As for great mountain golf on the pre Thompson Banff layout, I doubt it was great but it was there!
Who designed the Banff course from 1911?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #308 on: December 04, 2009, 05:01:50 PM »
Might not be groundbreaking, but it is ground soaking: Chicago GC is believed to be the first course to pipe water to the greens from a central plant.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #309 on: December 04, 2009, 05:32:42 PM »
Mac:

Merion (MCC--eg Merion Cricket Club, Haverford) had planned to shut down their previous Haverford course (18 holes) when they opened the Merion East course in Ardmore (Sept. 1912) but they actually did not shut down their Haverford course to play until the late fall of 1913. And so one could say in Sept. 1912 Merion probably became the first American 36 hole golf club.

In 1913 they bought more land in Ardmore and built and opened the West course in 1914 so I guess one could say then went back to an 18 hole club for about six months (but only in the winter when there is little play) and then returned to a 36 hole club again in 1914. But as a first 36 hole club in America one could say that happened in Sept 1912 at Merion.

Another interesting phenomenon is even being the first 36 hole golf club the over-crowding was pretty fierce early on in the fall of 1912 and 1913 with the Haverford course and the East course and then again with the East course and the West from 1914 on. This led to some membership defection and was actually responsible for the creation of my own club (Gulph Mills) in 1916.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 05:40:28 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #310 on: December 04, 2009, 06:16:42 PM »
Mac,
Probably not Groundbreaking/Revolutionary, but the Yountakah CC in Nutley, NJ, was the first golf course to install electric lights so its member could play in the evening. This was in 1908.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #311 on: December 04, 2009, 06:29:03 PM »
Merion…1912 (or 1914)…first 36 hole golf club in the U.S.

A number of sources, including some from within Merion, reported that he old course closed at the time the East opened.    Tom and Wayne have claimed differently but they have never produced any verifiable facts to support the claim.   I don't care one way or another when the old course closed, but if you are going to include the 1912 date on your list it ought to be backed up by verifiable facts.

The reason I say that verifiable facts ought to be produced is that oftentimes those facts are misread or misunderstood, and the only check on that is to put all the facts out their for proper vetting.  Not just in this instance, but in every instance.  Otherwise we end up with a record full of errors.  This is supposed to be a discussion group, and we ought not to be expected to take another's opinion as gospel without reviewing their factual support. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #312 on: December 04, 2009, 06:45:07 PM »
David...if I changed the date to 1914 would that be a better idea?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

TEPaul

Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #313 on: December 04, 2009, 06:53:41 PM »
"The reason I say that verifiable facts ought to be produced is that oftentimes those facts are misread or misunderstood, and the only check on that is to put all the facts out their for proper vetting."

Mac:

If you feel you would prefer to see for yourself the actual Merion records that indicate Merion was using 36 holes until the fall of 1913 (when they finally shut down the old Haverford course rather than take my word for it on here, we can certainly make them available to you. Neither Merion nor any of us here who have seen these records believe that they become verifiable facts only after David Moriarty sees them for himself and confirms that they are verifiable facts.  ;)

As for being misread and misunderstood there isn't much possibility that Merion would make a mistake about when they shut down the use of one of their two 18 hole courses. That would really be a hard thing to make a mistake on when one just looks at the amount of people who played golf at Merion between Sept 1912 and the fall of 1913. Maybe they just squeezed all those golfers onto the one 18 hole course of Merion East but that would be a pretty neat trick, don't you think? Maybe they just figured they could send them all off at five minute increments and for the only time in golf's history it wouldn't really make any difference somehow! You know, Mac, back then was sort of rudimentary, don't you know? ;)


"David...if I changed the date to 1914 would that be a better idea?"

Mac, you can decide that for yourself since this is your thread but if you changed it to 1914 in the case of Merion it would not be historically accurate.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 06:56:01 PM by TEPaul »

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #314 on: December 04, 2009, 06:58:29 PM »
Tom...

It sound like you have the knowledge base on this one and if you are good with 1912, let's go with it.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #315 on: December 04, 2009, 07:00:27 PM »
Mac,

That is up to you.  Is your list based on verifiable events or unverified claims?  It may be that the 1912 date is correct, but all the verifiable first-hand sources thus far point to 1914.

If it stayed open that ought to be easy enough to prove up.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #316 on: December 04, 2009, 07:01:57 PM »
Mac:

Let me go back and check the fall of 1912 with the Haverford course but I am certain from the Merion records that both courses were in full operation and play for Merion in 1913. Of that there is no question at all. The reason the necessity for both courses apparently happened as it did, which was not at first expected, was because MCC (Merion) actually had a separate golf association membership before 1912 within the larger MCC club membership but they changed that to allow all MCC (Merion) members to play golf.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 07:10:02 PM by TEPaul »

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #317 on: December 04, 2009, 07:05:36 PM »
As I was typing Tom put his latest post up...I was going to say the following...

Tom says he has seen the records that state both courses open in 1912-1913 and he says if I want to come up and see them, he will make them available.  Why isn't this verifiable evidence?

If he goes and verifies this information wouldn't we all have to agree it is fact?

  
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #318 on: December 04, 2009, 07:35:13 PM »
The Jackson Park GC in Chicago (1899) was built on a landfill, not of garbage, but of the spoils from the consruction of the Columbian Exposition of 1893.
It was also the first 9 hole public course west of the Alleghenies.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #319 on: December 04, 2009, 07:39:22 PM »
Jim...

would you say this should be the first landfill golf course?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #320 on: December 04, 2009, 07:48:28 PM »
Mac,
It's not my list.  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #321 on: December 04, 2009, 07:54:12 PM »
C'mon Jim...help a GCA brother out!!  :D

I'll dig into it and open up some discussion about it with you after I educate myself a bit.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #322 on: December 04, 2009, 09:34:20 PM »
Sorry to leave you hangin' Mac, but here's some more work. 
Another 36 hole golf course besides Merion's comes to mind. Problem is I don't know how you'll classify it, resort or club. The folks who frequented it in the winter, and who had at least five years under their belts doing so, had their own organization called the "Stone Crabs", and it was The Belleair.

Upon his (Henry F. Plant) death his son, Morton F., continued the work which has brought into existence today the two 18-hole courses, known as No. 1, which is 6,200 yards in length, and No. 2, the original course, 5,800 yards long.The original beginning was a nine-hole course, laid out by Donald Ross. A few years afterward, around 1900, nine holes were added and five years later the No. 1 course was built. At the outset the big problem was in getting grass greens.This was solved by Mr. Plant who imported carload after carload of top-soil from Indiana and Ohio. The result of this enterprise was that at Belleair there are now grass greens as good as any to be found anywhere in the north.The No. 1 course is still one of the best tests of championship golf in the south and nearly all of the most famous players—amateur, professional and women—have tested its mettle one time or another. No. 2, while much shorter, is an exceedingly interesting course, sporty enough to give complete satisfaction. It was on the No. 2 that Walter Hagen, in the West Coast Open championship last Winter, established his miraculous record of 62. And it was here also that Mrs. Caleb F. Fox, "golf's grand old lady," twice defeated Miss Glenna Collett, the national women's champion, in tournament play.The outstanding features of each course is the number of really fine two shot holes. There are also a number of excellent drive and pitch holes and the one-shotters are superb tests of accuracy. In building the course, Mr. Ross took full advantage of the innumerable ravines that cut in here and there, furnishing natural hazards. The fairways, bordered by pine woods and palmettos, call for precision and the stragglers off the line find woe in abundance awaiting them.

So it appears that the Plant (aptly named I'd say) family not only had themselves a well respected 36 hole layout by 1905, but they had one with grass greens, something Pinehurst would not have until 30 years later.....and this was in Florida, not in the more commodious climate of N.C.

Man, you took on a load!  ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #323 on: December 05, 2009, 12:08:37 AM »
Mac, The reason we need to vet and verify the basis for claims is so we get it right.  Simple as that.  

It is not enough to just make unsupported claims.  We all have to back them up.  That is the truth seeking process; offer proof and let that proof be scrutinized, vetted, and challenged. And not just by those who we feel we can sway, but to anyone and everyone who wants to challenge our ideas.  That is the truth seeking process; offer proof and let that proof be scrutinized, vetted, and challenged.  Only then are people in a position to make up their own minds.

As I was typing Tom put his latest post up...I was going to say the following...

Tom says he has seen the records that state both courses open in 1912-1913 and he says if I want to come up and see them, he will make them available.  Why isn't this verifiable evidence?

Because Tom, Wayne, Merion, whoever, are sequestering the key information from those of us who are in a position to actually understand and vet that information.

  
Quote
If he goes and verifies this information wouldn't we all have to agree it is fact.

Agree that what is fact?   What is the claim based upon?  Does Tom telling you it is fact make it a fact?  Is he infallible?  Are his claims not open to challenge?   I guess that is for you to decide, but I can tell you that I am not infallible, and all of my claims are open challenge.  I welcome it because I know that it the best way to get at the truth.

Look Mac, even if I trusted TEPaul (I'm not going to lie to you and pretend I do) I'd still need to see the basis for the claim before I accepted it as fact.  Oftentimes this stuff is difficult to figure out, and mistakes happen.  And unfortunately those with the best access to the information are often the most susceptible to misunderstanding that information, as they are just to close and too connected to their own preconceptions to see clearly.If I were to count the number of mistakes, misrepresentations, ommissions, and errors that TEPaul and Co. have made about this stuff I'd run out of fingers and toes long before I was through.   And while I am quite satisfied with my facts and analysis on this issue, I too have made some mistakes.   It is an ever evolving process and it depends upon full disclosure.  

In 1914 Robert Lesley wrote this of the East Course (emphasis added:)

The ground was found adapted for golf and a course was laid out upon it about three years ago by the following committee: Hugh I. Wilson, chairman, R. S. Francis, H. G. Lloyd, R. E. Griscom, and Dr. Hal Toulmin, who had as advisers, Charles B. Macdonald and H. J. Whigham. This course, which is described at a later period, was opened to the Merion players September 4, 1912, upon which date the old course on the north side was formally closed, a glorious and hilarious club dinner for men and women golfers marking the final ringing down of the curtain upon the old links which so many had enjoyed.[/color]

Later in the same article he wrote this of the new West course, (again with my emphasis:)

Work was begun in the spring of 1913 and the new course was opened to the members on Decoration Day of this year, when Merion players were afforded an opportunity of playing thirty-six different and varying holes upon two full championship eighteenhole courses.[/color]

Now maybe Lesley was mistaken, or maybe "was formally closed" doesn't mean it was really closed, and "ringing down of the curtain upon the old links which so many had enjoyed" was some sort of double-speak for keep open for another season.   Maybe when he wrote "Decoration Day of this year" he meant some other date and year.  

Seriously, it's possible that the course stayed open.   But the information out there seems to indicate otherwise, and Robert Lesley was there, involved, and one of Merion Golf's and Philadelphia's Golf's most distinguished figures.  Given a choice between Robert Lesley's understanding of what happened and TEPaul's understanding, I'll go with Lesley every time.  Give me some facts, and I may see it otherwise.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 12:12:33 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #324 on: December 05, 2009, 07:11:11 AM »

How is it that ANGC was built for spectator golf? I doubt Bobby Jones would agree with that.


Garland,

I agree with you 100 %.

I don't think accomodating spectators had anything to do with the design and construction of ANGC.

Importing elements, primary elements of TOC was one of the driving forces at ANGC, not spectator accomodation.

Many forget that Professional Golf was almost a non-entity in 1934.
There was no TV, no PGA Tour, no modern transportation to remote areas, and while it was a destination resort, ANGC was far removed from the beaten paths and a lot cooler than South Florida in the winter.


David Moriarty,

I agree with you regarding Myopia and GCGC.
While both courses were exceptional, architecture took a quantum leap with the introduction of NGLA.

Many forget that GCGC had 13 holes with roads that crossed the line of play, and one hole had two roads that crossed the line of play.
While it's true that NGLA had a road that crossed the line of play on two holes, the differences in the two courses is substantial.

One course, GCGC is about as close to the ground as possible.

 
Tees are at ground level and greens transition seemlessly from the fairways.
There's not much in the way of construction at the green ends.
Whereas, at NGLA, construction at the green ends is significant/substantial.
The constructed nature of NGLA, and the topography, IMHO, is what seperates it from GCGC

Mac, while C&W's work is extensive and a terrific resource, I wouldn't consider their pronouncements as "The Gospel"