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[JNagle]

you can't put a list of revolutionary courses without including:

1) Harbour Town: counterpunch to RTJ style
2) Oakmont: ultimate penal course

Could it be said that the counterpunch to RTJ's work was being done by Dick Wilson.  He may not have that Revolutionary course (maybe Pinetree) but his work in that era was much stronger than the work of others with a foot in both the Golden Age and Modern design.

How about the work in 1988 by Rees at The Country Club.  It ushered in a new concept and a deeper appreciation for a Club's design history.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom Paul...

Thanks.  That type of stuff confused the hell out of me.  But if I study, read, and ask a bunch of questions I will get it all straight one day.

Another thing that you touched on with Myopia that confuses/gets me is the question of how much of the original course is still left.  

For instance, i am going to sea island to play Sea Side and Plantation.  Sea Side, known as a Colt/Allision was redone by Fazio (right).  But it is my understanding that Colt didn't do the work, it was Alison.  and how much of Alison is left after greens committes and Fazio finished their work, etc.

I guess diligence, research, and experience will be the only answer.

Another for instance on this last point...is that I've played East Lake, Inverness, and CC of Columbus...all Ross'.  But East Lakes greens are distinctly different that the other two.  I can only conclude that Rees Jones' influence on the greens and the fact that the Tour Championship is played their altered Ross' original thoguths.

[DMoriarty]

Sweet...thanks David.  

On point #2...did I type in spectacular golf?  I meant spectator golf.  Meaning people could come to watch a tournament.  This was also touched on by Morgan Clawson.  My bad on the typo!

Point #3...pebble beach first great monterray course.  I'm grasping at straws trying to figure out a way to make Pebble the first great course of something.  Wasn't it a ground breaking course for some reason?

Point #4---The Golf Club...didn't this introduce minimalism, during RTJ's maximism reign?  isn't that significant/revolutionary?  Wasn't it also Pete Dye's first great course?  Is that ground breaking in and of itself?

Like always, I am asking you guys for input.  I've read about these courses, played some of them, but I am not dead set on the fact the my opinion is correct...I am all ears!

Mac

I misread.  You did type spectator.   I didn't know that and am not sure I buy it.   But interesting.

I thought you might be grasping with Pebble Beach.  Maybe it should be first course where Watson defeats Nicklaus by holing brilliant pitch from high rough on par 3 17th?

You may be right about the Golf Club,  I just don't know that much about it and was curious.  Things get fuzzy for me when you get much past WWII.

[Mac Plumart]

you can't put a list of revolutionary courses without including:

1) Harbour Town: counterpunch to RTJ style
2) Oakmont: ultimate penal course

Could it be said that the counterpunch to RTJ's work was being done by Dick Wilson.  He may not have that Revolutionary course (maybe Pinetree) but his work in that era was much stronger than the work of others with a foot in both the Golden Age and Modern design.

How about the work in 1988 by Rees at The Country Club.  It ushered in a new concept and a deeper appreciation for a Club's design history.

Dick Wilson is a name that keeps popping up as I study.  Florida was his "domain" correct?  I will have to check it out.

Rees Jones and The Country Club...interesting.  I've heard glowingthings about his work on East Lake as well.  I will dig deeper into the Country Club.  Could Rees' work get artifically downgraded due to his fathers past work?  Hmmm....

[Ulrich Mayring]

Sunningdale wasn't the first inland course on sandy soil either, actually Horace Hutchinson wrote in 1899 that Richmond Club und Mid Surrey Club were on sandy soil, but he didn't make the connection to heathland. He thought that sand was deposited there by the river Thames.

The heathland belt around London was virtually unknown, because it was completely overgrown and of little use to anyone. To the best of my knowledge Willie Park Jr. was the first man to see the potential of these sites for golf courses if somehow they could be cleared (a hell of a project without machines) and some turf could be grown on the extremely sandy ground.

Ulrich

[TEPaul]

"Another thing that you touched on with Myopia that confuses/gets me is the question of how much of the original course is still left."


Mac:

With that kind of thing, it is sort of course by course. If you have one or some you're interested in really understanding what I call the entire design evolution history from beginning until to date you just have to find the people who know it best. This website should be a good resource to find out who you might need to go to. I have a few courses I know the entire design evolution of really well, obviously including my own. For something like Merion or Flynn courses, Wayne Morrison is your man. If you want to know about some of those mentioned on here like GCGC or particularly Myopia I can help you out. I'm actually looking at a design evolution report of sorts that was done in the last few weeks on Myopia. It doesn't go all the way back to 1894 or 1896 or 1900 but it explains quite a bit. That particular course is remarkably well preserved and they might be planning a few last restorative measures. Myopia is a very important early American architectural study laboratory for sure.

Dick Wilson was based in southeast Florida, at least in the end of his career, but he worked all over the country. He was probably RTJ's main competitor.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...

I am VERY interested in that type of information on all of the courses you named, but for some reason I fell in love with Myopia Hunt just as soon as I began studying GCA.

What is the best way to communicate on these issues?

This spring I am heading up to play Yale and another course that my friend is surprising me with...he's hinted it is Shinnecock, but he won't tell me for sure.  Would it be possible to set up a time to chat over dinner or coffee or something like that? 

You mentioned the other day that you don't play much anymore, but I am sure you could join us for our rounds if you want to.

Let me know as I am extremely interested in learning these more in-depth pieces of information about these timeless gems.

Thanks!!!

[TEPaul]

"What is the best way to communicate on these issues?"


Mac:

Any way you want to---phone, email or even on here.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...

Thanks!!!

I'm heading to bed soon...another hopping Friday night in GA!!!

I'll pop you an email tomorrow to get the knowledge rolling.

Thanks again, you've been great to me and I really appreciate it!!!

[Robin Doodson]

Mac,

i had the pleasure of playing Machrihanish Dunes a few weeks ago and IMHO it is  a truly revolutionary golf course. It is an absolute joy and could possibly be the worlds one and only truly sustainable golf course. This course goes beyond minimalism in not only it's design but also in it's maintenance. i really hope that people get to experience and understand what Southworth are trying to achieve there as everyone in the golf industry (especially GCA's) could learn an awful lot from it.

robin

[john_stiles]

One of, or the first ranked course I played, was the  Dunes  in Myrtle Beach.  I played there because of their hosting the PGA qualifying school.

Nevertheless,   it was an early RTJ post  WWII course, just after Peachtree,  but may have been one of the first to go down and through the southern marsh.   This was very much copied, IMO, in the southern USA but am not sure anyone has done it better than the 10th, 11th, 12th, and infamous 13th at The Dunes.   These are pretty much the template marsh holes in southern USA.

The 13th is almost what I call a 'double' cape hole.   It tempts you to drive close to the water on the right, and then cut off as much as you can,  for the shortest third shot.  Anyway,  I see the  Dunes as an influence on most of what was build in the southern USA, and followed later on undesirable marsh land.

This model (template) has sold so much real estate in the south and encouraged so many courses to be built, unbelievable.

Also,  as a mini build up to much of the modern courses,  I think the 10th at Wild Dunes and the entire Southern Dunes continued the surge from Harbour Town.

I guess in summary,  I see the Dunes as a prelude to much of the 1960s/1970s/1980s golf courses,  a few of which were very good.

[TEPaul]

"Could it be said that the counterpunch to RTJ's work was being done by Dick Wilson.  He may not have that Revolutionary course (maybe Pinetree) but his work in that era was much stronger than the work of others with a foot in both the Golden Age and Modern design.

How about the work in 1988 by Rees at The Country Club.  It ushered in a new concept and a deeper appreciation for a Club's design history."

Jim Wagner:

Both of those are thought provoking remarks. As mentioned above it has often been attributed to Pete Dye to have delivered the architectural counterpunch to RTJ with his revolutionary Harbor Town. It has been said and I believe confirmed by Pete that while driving by an RTJ course on his way to the beginning of the Harbor Town project the idea occured to him that he could actually do something in a far different direction and arguably Harbor Town was that.

Your second remark about Rees and Brookline is really interesting though. I think you have a very good point there but on that 1988 Brookline project we should not forget the excellent bunker development of TCC's superintendent!

(Yeah, I know you're Jimbo Nagle; just funnin' ya.)

PS:
On the other hand, Pete's father was a real fan of Dick Wilson and it has been said that Wilson was one of the reasons Pete's parents moved down to Southeast Florida thereby inspiring Pete to do the same where of course Pete and Alice have lived half of every year for many, many decades.

I actually remember Dick Wilson from the 1950s in Southeast Florida. With my dad and all his good playing golf buddies Dick Wilson was really their man----they got him to work on Seminole, Gulf Stream and they built Pine Tree with him----eg also Meadow Brook in Long Island. When he died in 1965 they didn't know who to turn to. At first they sort of looked to Wilson's associate Joe Lee but that didn't work as well. And then after a while who did they find in their midst----a young Pete and Alice Dye!

[TEPaul]

John Stiles:

UNBELIEVALBE!!

On your post above you mentioned a number of RTJ "Template" holes and of course that surely is true. Whenever we speak about "template" holes, at least in recent years, it seems like we are always talking about CBM and his "template" GB holes used over here on most of his and the National School courses.

But we sure can't forget RTJ's modus operandi or style or model or using the same basic string of "template" concepts over and over and over again----or even Pete Dye doing it so famously as he and others of his generation did with the big right to left sweeping finishing holes with water all down the left!

I hesitate to say this and by it I defnitely don't mean a reliance on "template" holes or even "template" concepts  or anything of the like (it was probably more of a contour line measuring device) but one time walking around a raw site with topos in our hands one of my favorite architects fished into his pocket and produced some par 4 and par 5 paper cut-out holes that actually had hinges on them!! 

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...

Reading this sites Sea Island thread from 2004 (I think it was) led me to believe that posting this type of information in the DG is the best way to get the ball rolling...

Can we start with Garden City?

What I see is that is was founded in 1899 and is an Emmett course.  If you could expound upon its formation, tweaks, changes, remodels, or rennovations over time...that would be great.

Also, the same for Myopia would be great.  I know Herbert Leeds was involved, but some of the dates are squirely.

Thanks for sharing!

[Mac Plumart]

Robin...

I am fascinated with Mach. Dunes.  You say self-sustaining.  Please excuse my ignorance, but could you please expound upon that?  I am of the belief that a course that is truly minimalist, needs to be minimalist in terms of upkeep and maintenance as well.  Could Mach. Dunes fit this bill.

Thanks,
Mac

[TEPaul]

Mac:

For the architectural history of GCGC I'd use the Centennial History book of the club done by the excellent club history book writer Bill Quirin (Pat Mucci, who belongs to GCGC, actually gave it to me a bit over nine years ago).

I think it tracks the beginnings of the club and course from its nine hole beginning in 1897 by Devereux Emmet (and another club member, by the name of George Hubbell), to its alteration to 18 holes in 1899 by Emmet and Hubbell, to the tenure of Walter Travis's years long work on the golf course.

It would be nice to scan those pages from that book in here but I can't do that and I don't even know if the club itself would appreciate that at least not without providing its permission first.

There may be some questions and challenges about the details of the course's architectural history by some on here but I sure don't want to see this thread and your questions about it turn into another Merion type argument. I won't get involved in that on this thread and course and I know you won't either.

Pat's coming home today or tomorrow and he would be the one to help get this going for you, along with me or anyone else knowledgeable on GCGC's architectural history. There're also a couple of pretty detailed threads on GCGC's architectural history way back in the back pages of this website.

But it is certainly true to say GCGC is one of the most important ones in American Architectural history, along with Myopia and a few others, simply because it was so early for quality architecture in America.

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks Tom.

I'll reach out to Pat and see if I can buy a copy through him.

I'll also check out the past threads on this site.

[Mac Plumart]

Robin...

I just read a thread on Mach. Dunes and did some diggin elsewhere.  Oh man, it sounds excellent, unique, groundbreaking, etc.

I can't wait to give it a try!!!

Thanks,
Mac

[Robin Doodson]

Robin...

I am fascinated with Mach. Dunes.  You say self-sustaining.  Please excuse my ignorance, but could you please expound upon that?  I am of the belief that a course that is truly minimalist, needs to be minimalist in terms of upkeep and maintenance as well.  Could Mach. Dunes fit this bill.

Thanks,
Mac

Mac,

One of the most unique things about Machrihanish Dunes is that it is built on a Site of Special Scientific Interest so by law it has to fit the bill. Scottish Natural Heritage come on site 3 or 4 times per year to ensure that fairways aren't being cut below 20mm, rough isn't being mown and pesticides aren't  being sprayed outside of tees and greens. The way government regulators are going , in 20 years these sorts of restrictions are going to be the norm. it will change golf course conditioning dramatically especially in the US. Canada and some parts of Europe have already banned the use of pesticides i believe. Maintaining a golf course under these restrictions is definitely a challenge but it will just take a change in golfer expectation to appreciate what can be achieved on such a rustic site. i would be interested to know how GCA's would modify there style to deal with a pesticide free golf course? also playability would definitely change if you can't mow fairways below 20mm how would architects deal with this? Would some architects actually benefit from these sorts of challenges?

yours aye

robin

[Tony_Muldoon]

Pinehurst #2--first great resort course

I would go with Glenaeagles as an earlier option.  It was thought about before WW1, the course was built during the war and the Hotel afterwards.  It was (like Pinehurst?) developed by a Railway Company.  By 1919 it was open for business.


Mac It woul be interesting to see all these laid out in a timeline. Good Luck

PS  What was the first course designed to enhance a larger development?   Housing etc?  


What was the first Country Club GC?  I'd like some more info on this as the Country Club is not something I've experienced.  Also I understand some ealry US courses were part of Polo, Cricket or even Tennis developments, is the the Country Club ideal?


I will post a thread this winter on Thurlestone GC. As early as the 1890's there were ambitious plans for  a 'new town' with sports facitlities Cricket, Golf and Tennis.  Ultimately the Golf and Tennis were developed piecemeal, but the deveopment as planned didn't take place.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sunningdale wasn't the first great heathland course, that was either Woking or Huntercombe. The significance of Sunningdale in my eyes is that it was the first course where

a) The site was cleared to make room for golf.
b) The course was grown from seeds.

Ulrich

Ulrick New Zealand GC was cleared of trees circa 1893,  grassing must have then taken place.

[Mac Plumart]

Tony...

I have been taking notes and creating a timeline as we go...I will share when it is complete.

Mac

[Tony_Muldoon]

Excellent thanks I look forward to seeing it.

[Steve Okula]

I nominate Kyle Philips et al splendid work at Kingsbarns, Scotland, the first manufactured links course.

Well into page 2 of this thread and no one has yet mentioned Pine Valley? Isn't that the first and last word on penal design? Also, it boasts an all-star ensemble cast of contributing architects.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Steve,

TEPaul mentioned Pine Valley back there somewhere, but it wasn't about the penal nature of the architecture. Wouldn't Oakmont be considered the first really penal course in the US ?

[Mac Plumart]

Oakmont has been referenced as the first/ulitimate in penal design.  I've got to say from my research is sounds like a true "ball-buster".  

Pine Valley...I've been wanting to ask about it.  Crump is the designer on record, right?  Steve, you mention all-star cast of contributors.  Can you elaborate?  Also, Pine Valley's primary characterisitcs take root in the courses penal nature, correct?

Kingbarns...very nice.  I happen to have the "scoop" on that course which was provided to me by one of the truly great researchers/writers that contributes regularly (or at least he used to) on this site.  For that, let me say "thanks"...the information is truly excellent.

Thanks!!!

[TEPaul]

Mac:

Oakmont was begun by the Fownses in 1903. Pine Valley was begun by Crump in 1913. Crump and W.C. Fownes (1910 US Amateur champion) were friends and Fownes was an early member of PV, as well as a central advisor on PV's architecture a few years after Crump died.

Depending on what one means by "penal" there is little question that both courses were architecturally contemplated to be extremely difficult; frankly that was a large part of the point of both of them. Back in that day there was a philosophy extant in a part of the world of American architecture to make some golf courses a lot harder simply to raise the caliber of the championship players of those regions.

Crump didn't even attempt to make a concession to the caliber of golfer who was not a good player with his Pine Valley. He actually joked that his course was not for them at all.

When we think about and talk about this whole equation of penal versus strategic golf and architecture we need to consider what some of those architects were designing their particular courses for! A few of them wanted extremely difficult courses that wasn't exactly supposed to be accommodating to weaker golfers and that in and of itself was pretty controversial, revolutionary and groundbreaking back then. It did not come without a certain amount of criticism from some sectors either, particularly from some critics abroad.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
There surely was a lot of contribution to Crump's effort, although I don't thnk I mentioned anything about it, wrong guy.

There are others who know the story better than me. As far as it being primarily penal, I know guys who've played it that take exception to that idea, they say it's more 'strategic'.

I take a more simple view, my working definition of penal is when you force a player to hit balls over a feature/hazard rather than offering them a way around. A look at an aerial of the course shows many instances of that.

I assume it's more of one, some of the other.

[TEPaul]

Mac:

As far as Pine Valley being a collaborative architectural effort with contributions or recommendations and advice and opinions from numerous architects of the time, there is no question that it was, at least that seemed to be the perception Geo. Crump wanted to promote and did promote. I could make you a list which is pretty long and interesting of those that it has been said made some recommendations to Crump and Pine Valley.

The point though, or at least my point on that, is it very much seems like Crump did everythng possible to promote that idea and did nothing at all to discourage it. In that particular way Crump seemed to have been the opposite of proprietary about the architecture of PV. In actual fact, though, he just did what he wanted to do no matter who suggested what. He just did it without bothering to mention he was NOT taking someone's advice. Perhaps the best example of all in that vein was the trumpeted idea and iteration with PV by Travis to make the course reversible.

Crump actually encouraged Travis to create a reversible design and even promote it in American Golfer (Travis was its editor) along with drawings and descriptions. But eventually that idea was just quietly dropped by Crump and nothing like that was ever done with the course. I've got the drawings of the few holes Travis reversed on paper---they are actually pretty interesting in how he did it with the way those holes were and are designed.

You should also know that Geo. Crump did work and apparently planned to work on the design of that course in the mode of most all those famous so-called "amateur/sportsmen" architects (the ones who did not take money for what they did in architecture) in that he planned to take years and perhaps decades on its architectural development. There is that famous story around the club when members and others would ask him when his course would have all eighteen holes open for play or at least when the course would finally be finished and according to what was written or said by those closest to him he would bellow, "NEVER!!"

Another interesting aspect of Crump and PV is that in 1917 he bought approximately 400 more acres contiguous to the original 186 acres and when asked why he did that he said that when he completed the course he was going to design and build another championship-test type course along side it JUST FOR WOMEN!! He had already begun to interview star amateur Alexa Stirling for her architectural advice for that purpose. That is pretty ironic because as you may or may not know, Pine Valley is and always has been a male only golf club!!  

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...

Interesting.  It is my understaninding the Crump built the course with his own money (or at least a large part of his own money).  If one does this, there is the high probability that a "dictator" will emerge regarding the course.  If this "dictator" takes the advice, guidance, and counsel of qualified experts then a true gem could be build as this "dictator" won't have to deal with egos, placating people, etc.  He can simply listen to the experts, pick and choose what works, and go with it....rather than submit to committee, debate, vote, and all the other stuff that committee's have to go through.

 I suppose that assumes he can make the right decision.  It certainly appears Crump made the correct calls.

Great stuff.

[TEPaul]

Mac:

I just added a lot to #63.


As far as Crump being a "dictator" at or with Pine Valley, that might be one of the most interesting aspects of all about PV.

There is no question at all that he could have been had he wanted to be but it seems like he definitely did not want to be, at least with the club itself. There is no question at all that Crump poured a ton of his own money into that course and club and I suppose in a sense or in some way, at least for some time he probably could be considered to have owned the place. I think he bought Pine Valley with his own money but then others contributed (sort of paid him or the club back as it were). All that type of thing was done with bond offerings and being the type of people those members were most of the time no one really knew who bought the bonds, but the club history and archives suggest in just about every case Crump bought them. So in that sense it was his money but he did also joke that at some point he would simply have a bonfire and just burn all his bonds!

From all indications Crump seems to have been a remarkably kind and perhaps somewhat reserved but extremely definite man (it surely seems that everyone who knew him or met him loved the man). But frankly or in the interest of historical truth there must have been something a bit strange about him for some reason because who from the world he came from would actually go out and basically live in the woods alone all those years as he did with Pine Valley?

So, yes, I think essentially he owned the place and paid for most of what it took to create and develop it but early on he decided that it was just the golf course he wanted to do and concentrate on and he actually refused to be the president of the club or have much to do with its membership drive. That he left to others, primarily the remarkable Howard Perrin Jr who was PV's first president and remained that up until the 1920s when the remarkable PV dictator John Arthur Brown took over and was Pine Valley's president and famous dictator for over 50 years.

[Mac Plumart]

All right guys...we talked about courses as penal, strategic, etc.  And we touched on how members of Oakmont, Pine Valley, etc take offense to being labeled "penal", etc.  As it is probably very much the case that these truly great courses are much more than "penal"...to be great isn't it a given that the course has to have many, many hidden nuances, obvious choices, penal elements, etc.  I haven't played Oakmont or Pine Valley, so correct me if I am wrong...but it simply has to be a true or these courses wouldn't have lasted the test of time.

HOWEVER...there is a hole on my home course that is purely "penal" in my mind.  I can't see it any other way.  Take a peak at this...#3 at St. Ives...565 yard par 5...



hit your driver straight, hit your 2nd, and 3rd (if neccessary) straight, putt and/or chip...done.

If you are right or left at any time...trap. 

Penal, right...no strategy excpet hit it straight. 

[TEPaul]

Mac:

I think far too many make too much of this "penal/strategic" thing.

If you call that hole you showed at St Ives just penal and you'd be fine if you just hit two to three shots on it straight then two putted or chipped and putted you'd be fine I would say if you hit it straight into the middle of every fairway at either Pine Valley or Oakmont and into the middle of every green you'd be fine too even though some of the greens at PV and Oakmont may be a bit more complex and challenging than St. Ives (but I really don't know that because I don't know St Ives).

The big difference between both PV and Oakmont though is if someone is going to hit it crooked at those courses and they tend to be too aggressive with their recovery shots they will probably come out of the day a whole lot worse off than they would if they hit it crooked and go agressive with their recovery shots at St. Ives (out of bunkers or other non-fairway areas).

So what would you call that----PV and Oakmont being more strategic than St. Ives or more penal?

In my opinion, if one considers penal to be basically scoring difficulty for any level of golfer I would say both Pine Valley and Oakmont are probably a ton more penal than St. Ives (again, even though it's hard for me to say because I've never seen St. Ives).

[Sean Arble]

I didn't take a detailed look at the posts, but it strikes me that links are sorely under-represented.  I am not sure which ones I would put forward.  Perhaps Muirfield for its revolutionary two loops, one within the other in opposite directions.  Though, I think Stoneham's (Park Jr) routing was done before Muirfield's.  I spose much of the difficulty in deciphering links architectural qualities is that much of what was introduced from inland designs after the start of the heathland movement.  Its difficult to pick a representative few.  Perhaps if we went on the resort theme with the railways as the main source of transport it may be easier to peg it down. 

Ciao

[Mac Plumart]

Sean...

I am so glad you brought that up.  I am putting together the timeline and there is a BIG time gap after, before, and in and around the following courses...

St. Andrews Old and North Berwick...with Royal Calcutta mixed in there and Sunningdale, Huntercombe, Woking.

Gleneagles was mentioned as the first resort course...but I get a 1912 time frame and Pinehurst 1907.

Any enlightenment or added knowledge regarding courses and dates and their breakthroughs would be much appreciated.

Mac