Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses

[TEPaul]

Brad:

Interesting you said Oakmont had very fast greens in 1927. That was the year Emil Loeffler took over from Oakmont's previous head greenkeeper, John McGlynn. Loeffler was around Oakmont just about his entire life. He began as a 10 year old caddie in 1904 and became W.C. Fownes' personal caddie. He died in 1948. W.C. died in 1950.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom P...brilliant work!!

How cool is that information?  Thanks for sharing.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom M….per your prior comment, here is my case for why Bethpage State Park is a groundbreaking/revolutionary set of golf courses…

Three of Bethpage State Park’s four golf courses were built with government funds and the fourth was modified with these funds and the accompanying labor.  The government program that was directly responsible for providing funds and labor for these courses was the Public Works Administration.  This program was a Roosevelt New Deal program which was created in 1933 to help battle the Great Depression.  It authorized over $3 billion to be spent on projects which were designed to provide jobs, stabilize the economy, improve public welfare and morale, and contribute to a revival of American industry.

AW Tillinghast laid out and supervised construction and/or modification of the four 18 hole courses…Green, Blue, Red, and Black Courses (and as an FYI the Yellow course was added in 1958).  By 1935 the most famous of these courses, the Black  Course, was finished and in 1936 it hosted a major golf tournament, the National Public Links Championship.

Does this constitute a groundbreaking/revolutionary course?  I say, “Yes.”  It was, in fact, a golf course whose very conception was designed to create jobs, stimulate the economy, and help fend off, perhaps, the greatest economic tragedy in our nation’s history.

This in and of itself should put it on the list…but I also want to know is it/was it great.

Since the Black Course is the crowned jewel at Bethpage, let’s examine that course.  For starters, it hosted a significant golf tournament right after its completion.  So, instantly we lean towards want to classify it as potentially great.  And then, if we simply read Ran’s write up on the Black Course we can conclude nothing less than Bethpage Black is now, and was in 1936, great!

Here are a few snippets from Ran’s write-up…

One of the lasting appeals of Bethpage is that the holes seem to be effortlessly cut from the same fabric, with one sound hole following another

As an examination in driving, this course is Tillinghast’s masterpiece

Tillinghast’s work at Bethpage serves as a thesis on how-to bunker a course

Rees Jones was given the responsibility of restoring the course to its former glory prior to the 2002 U.S. Open. Work commenced in July 1997 and the course re-opened in June 1998.



I think it is inarguable the AW Tillinghast was a great golf course architect.  Therefore, if Bethpage Black is his “masterpiece” regarding a test of driving…the course must be great.  If Tillinghast’s work at Bethpage serves as a “how-to” course on bunkering…the course must be great.  Then again, if Rees Jones had to restore it to its former glory…it had to be glorious at some point in the past.

Given all this…I can only conclude one thing…Bethpage Black is a groundbreaking/revolutionary golf course and, perhaps, the entire golf complex at Bethpage is groundbreaking/revolutionary.

Tom Macwood…you previously mentioned that Harding Park and Sharp Park potentially deserve mention on the list.  If you have the time, please detail why we should consider them for the list.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,

I don't know if the date you were given for Emil loeffler's taking over the reins at Oakmont is quite correct. There are numerous articles citing Emil Loeffler as Oakmont's Greekeeper long before 1927, here's an excerpt from one dated 1920:

" EMIL "DUTCH" LOEFFLER, greenkeeper at the Oakmont Country Club, is proud of a letter received from the United States Golf Association praising him for the fine condition of the course during the national amateur championship. He has received an offer from the Druid Hills Club of Atlanta to take charge of that course but it is not thought he will desert Oakmont. Loeffer, who was once a caddy boy, is also a good player".

It seems that Fownes was always changing the presentation at Oakmont, and I've read where Fownes had Loeffler change several greens prior to the '27 Open as a way to stiffen the course up.

"Even a cold winter is not preventing the Oakmont Club from preparing for the coming of the great amateur stars during the approaching season. Emil Loeffler, the course greenkeeper, under the guidance of William C. Fownes, Jr., started early last summer to prepare the course, putting in new tees and changing many of the greens, so that those who played over Oakmont in the 1919 championship will see a course vastly different from that which greeted them when the title event was staged here five years ago. Number thirteen green, which was picked by "Chick" Evans as the thirteenth green on an "All-American" course some time ago, is among the greens being changed, needless to say, it is not being made easier. The number six green, difficult enough in 1919, has been remade, and it is now said to be one of the best holes in the country. The same is true of number seven. This green was rebuilt early in the season but after being almost finished was deemed not good enough and was torn up again. Now it is said to equal any number seven hole in America. Other changes are slated between now and the time for thebig title tournament that will make the course, already considered an extremely difficult one, the equal of any golf course ever constructed."

[TEPaul]

Jim Kennedy:

Good pick up there about when Loeffler became Oakmont's head greenskeeper. Have you read Oakmont's recent history book by well known Pittsburgh sports writer Marino Parascenzo?

When I mentioned Loeffler became Oakmont's head greenskeeper in 1927 it was a mistake and my mistake.

Loeffler began at Oakmont as a 10 year old in 1904. He became W.C. Fownes' personal caddy and in 1912 he became Oakmont's caddiemaster. In 1916 he took over from Oakmont's head greenskeeper John McGlynn (who at that point went into golf architecture actually asking Loeffler (who was a very good player) to join him). Loeffler became Oakmont's head greenskeeper in 1916 and held that position until his death in 1948.

It was in 1927 that he also became Oakmont's head golf professional.

It is also interesting to know from that article how a number of those greens were designed and redesigned by the team of Fownes and Loeffler in the teens and '20s, as well as the constant increase in bunkering on the course. I am aware that the 8th green was moved and redesigned perhaps in the late 1940s or early 1950s by superintendent Snyder (who did a most interesting drawing of the course in the late 1930s while apparently still at Penn State) due to the building of the Pennsylvania turnpike which needed to be expanded from the previous railroad track bed.

This would probably help explain how Oakmont's reputation as a first class golf course, architecture and championship course evolved through the teens and 1920s as it did even though that 1903 routing really is remarkably similar to the way the course still is in that most all the holes are essentially in the same places (landforms) sans obvious tee length additions and such over the years.

By the way, at the time of that article you just cited that mentions all the work done by Fownes' and Loeffler to the course prior to the 1927 US Open, W.C. Fownes also happened to be the president of the USGA and he was the one who formally established the USGA Green Section at that time!

[Tom MacWood]

David M...groundbreaking/revolutionary, at least for what I am getting at in this thread, is indeed as you said...

 "Or does the course of feature of the course have to be something new and different?  Something that took golf course design in an unanticipated direction?   Something that brought something unique to the conversation? "

Mac
Bethpage was not the first or only golf course built by a public works program: Prairie Dunes, Ohio State GC, Indian Canyon, Memorial Park, North Fulton, Split Rock, Mark Twain, etc.

What impact did Bethpage have on golf architecture?

As far as making my case I've already stated TOC should head this category, and if you chose to concentrate only on America and eliminate the rest of the world, then I'd go with Franklin Park in Boston designed by Willie Campbell in 1897 or 1898. It proved public could be on par with most private courses and was the model for the top public courses around the country that followed.

[Mac Plumart]

Excellent work guys.  I find the Oakmont research fascinating and insightful.  Perhaps it really highlights the importance of a first rate greenskeeper.  Awesome!!

Tom M...I most certainly do not want to exclude the rest of the world.  We have many examples of fine courses from all over the world.  I will post an updated list over the next few days with all the updated information/courses.

Concerning me asking you to state your case regarding Harding and Sharp Park, don't mistake that for a "challenge" or as combatative.  Your request for me to make my case regarding Bethpage proved educational for me and I enjoyed checking and double checking ideas/thoughts/facts that I thougth I already knew.  Some checked out, some didn't, and some new rays of light were shined on the course/park for me.

Along these lines, if you feel like one of these other courses better represents the revolutionary nature of using golf course design to stave of the Depression I would be interested to read about it.  Furthermore, if the course you choose proves to be "great" as it clearly appears BPB was/is, that would be a really course to study.

However, if you don't have the time...don't worry about it.  We've got some good leads already.

Thanks!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!

[Bradley Anderson]

Brad:

Interesting you said Oakmont had very fast greens in 1927. That was the year Emil Loeffler took over from Oakmont's previous head greenkeeper, John McGlynn. Loeffler was around Oakmont just about his entire life. He began as a 10 year old caddie in 1904 and became W.C. Fownes' personal caddie. He died in 1948. W.C. died in 1950.

He was also one of the greatest golfers of his day. He shot a 67 at Oakmont.

[Bradley Anderson]

A couple things I just came across:

1) The earliest mention I can find to "lightning greens" was in reference to Myopia 1909. It may be that Myopia was one of the actual pioneer clubs with respect to penal conditioning and architecture.

2) More on Oakmont's routing:

From a Golf Illlustrated article around 1925:  "The Oakmont course had a rather unique beginning, for the course was conceived and laid out on paper before the land was discovered. Henry C. Fownes--who is now and has been from the first, President of the club--and his son, W.C. Jr., first conceived a plan of holes which in their judgement would make a championship layout, and then set about the difficult task of finding an acreage which would fit their mental speculations."

The article goes on to say:

"So well did they plan, and so successfully were they that no single putting green has ever been moved from it's original moorings, although every one of the 18 greens has been remodeled and rebuilt to keep step with the progress of the game."
 

[Bradley Anderson]

There appears to have been a constant upgrading of the greens, tees, and bunkers at Oakmont. It may be likened to Augusta in that every off-season, the Fownes's were making additions and alterations to the course.

But other than lengthening, the route does not appear to have changed, nor does the location of the greens. 

[Bradley Anderson]

Another thing that I find interesting about the greens at Oakmont is that so many of them are extensions of the natural grade of the ground.

Number one was raised only enough to help drainage. Number three was built on the native grade. Four, Eight, Nine, Ten, Fourteen, and Fifteen are also fairly close to grade. Some of the bunkering on these greens is dug below grade.

These same design principles are evident at Myopia, and also at GCGC, although on a much smaller scale. There are some interesting similarities between Myopia, GCGC, and Oakmont. But Fownes seems to have continued to raise the bar after the other clubs had plateaued.

[Tom MacWood]

Excellent work guys.  I find the Oakmont research fascinating and insightful.  Perhaps it really highlights the importance of a first rate greenskeeper.  Awesome!!

Tom M...I most certainly do not want to exclude the rest of the world.  We have many examples of fine courses from all over the world.  I will post an updated list over the next few days with all the updated information/courses.

Concerning me asking you to state your case regarding Harding and Sharp Park, don't mistake that for a "challenge" or as combatative.  Your request for me to make my case regarding Bethpage proved educational for me and I enjoyed checking and double checking ideas/thoughts/facts that I thougth I already knew.  Some checked out, some didn't, and some new rays of light were shined on the course/park for me.

Along these lines, if you feel like one of these other courses better represents the revolutionary nature of using golf course design to stave of the Depression I would be interested to read about it.  Furthermore, if the course you choose proves to be "great" as it clearly appears BPB was/is, that would be a really course to study.

However, if you don't have the time...don't worry about it.  We've got some good leads already.

Thanks!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!

The point of my mentioning Harding Park and Sharp Park was to show you that there were several very good public courses that predate 1936. There are others I could list if you'd like. It seems to me your lists are based on little or no historical support. You look at the date Oakmont was constructed and you assume since its so good today it must have been good in 1903. Likewise you look at the notoriety Bethpage receives today and you assume it was must be the first great public golf course and must have had a major impact on other public courses. I don't see it.

Again if you are only going to look golf architecture through an American's eyes, I'd go with Franklin Park, followed closely by Salisbury Links, designed by Emmet in 1907-08, which was one of the first modern designs in America (private or public).

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bradley,

These two green locations seem to have changed:
 
The course has undergone some big changes since the amateur championship was played there in 1925. The old sixteenth hole has been eliminated and a new hole built.....The new hole is a big improvement and is now one of the sportiest one shotter's on the course. The tee has been moved back and elevated, while the green has been brought forward.

Another important change is the one to the fifteenth green. A new green moved back 40 yards has been built and it calls for a full iron on your second shot. The hole measures 470yards with the new green. This green is also guarded with deep traps andbunkers on the sides and rear.

.....whether or not the routing remained relatively the same.

[Mac Plumart]

Bradley and Jim...again, great stuff.  Like I said, I will get you all an updated list soon and we can examine it and see what we need to add, subtract, etc.

Tom M...I couldn't disagree with you more.  I have made very few definative statements of fact regarding which courses should be on or off the list.  Please re-read the opening post.  I am thinking out loud and asking members of this site to help me.

In regards to Oakmont (as with every course listed on this thread), I essentially asked members of this thread if they thought it was worthy of being listed.  Debate ensued, points were made, decisions were made.  I think we made some excellent points regarding discussions/breakthroughs on the course taking its "greatness" from 1903 to 1939 and backing and filling to find out about this course and its "transformation" to greatness.  

On Bethpage, you challenged me to make my case for the course and I thought I did a good job of that.  Whether you, or anyone else on this site, regard it as groundbreaking or revolutionary is what the thread is all about.  If you want to particpate in the thread and disagree, simply say that and lets discuss.  You asked me to make my case...I did.  You don't directly refute it, but kind of insinuate that you disagree by mentioned other public courses.  Perhaps the monicker I gave BPB should be changed, perhaps it should not even be on the list.  That is fine if you disagree...that is what the thread is all about...discussing, debating, making points, and reaching decisions.  You state that I am mistaking its present greatness for its past greatness.  I think I made valid points as to why its past had to be reagarded as great.  Again, if you disagree...let's discuss.  I am not an a vendetta to be proven right...quite the contrary...I am looking to educate myself.

If you are frustrated by my approach and don't want to particpate in the thread, I understand that.  However, there is no doubt that you appear to have a more educated background on golf courrse history and I welcome your comments.  But I don't want to frustrate you or cause you any anger.  If that is the case, please avoid this thread.  I will ask dumb questions, make incorrect statements, and similiar faux pas...but  this is because I want to learn more and more about golf course architecture and its histroy and I am extra-ordinarily self-confident and,therefore, I don't mind asking a dumb question or making a mistake...as I know this is the only way I will learn.

Furthermore, if I take the lead regrading this project and can aks all the dumb questions regarding the topic...perhaps I can motivate the people who have the knowledge to answer the questions and at the end of the day we will have a great list that people can use to study and get educated on golf course achitecture and its history.

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

I wholly concur with what you said in #160 about the number of natural grade level greens, or at least the true architectural interest of the ones that Oakmont, Myopia and GCGC have, and I've thought that about those three courses and that similarity for some years now. It's additionally interesting that they are also from sort of the same very early era. It is such a pleasure to see greens like those today that look so good because they seem so natural landform and WORK SO WELL strategically. I think it's a study in good routing and indicative of golf architectural sublime simplicity.

Also, I see such similarity in the way both Leeds and Fownes seemed to look at golf and architecture----frankly ultra demanding and seemingly ultra penal if you missed a shot in the wrong places. I have never heard that they knew each other or knew each other well or shared ideas but it would certainly seem so given the similarity of the way they approached their two courses---Oakmont and Myopia---and I suppose to some extent one could say the same about Emmet and Travis of GCGC. All were unquestionably excellent players and seemingly a bit dour about the way they approached GCA and competition and perhaps even life itself.

Another thing I find pretty fascinating about W.C. Fownes was the way he sort of casually slid a note across the table at a board meeting after WW2 saying he was resigning from the leadership of the club and basically taking his family and the future of a Fownes continued reign with him. Apparently he did not like the idea of Oakmont becoming a country club and wanted to see it stay just a golf club in apparently the sort of GB mode and ethos.

[Mac Plumart]

Here is the updated list...

Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Golf Courses

St. Andrews (Old)…no concrete evidence details when golf was first played on The Old Course; perhaps 1441, 1552, 1574.  Regardless, it is a timeless gem and first “great” muni.

Royal Calcutta...1829…oldest golf course outside the British Isles

Westward Ho!...1864…first links course in England

Hoylake…1869…influential English golf course

North Berwick…1878…first golf course to allow women

The Country Club…1882 (1895?)…first country club

Hotel Champlain on Bluff Point…1890…first American resort course

Kelvinside…1894…first golf/residential golf course

Van Courtland Park…1895…first U.S. muni

Franklin Park…1897…first very good U.S. public golf course

Sunningdale (Old)…1901…one of the first great heathland courses, also one of the first courses to be formed from cleared land and whose course was grown from seed
--It should be mentioned that New Zealand G.C. was cleared and groomed in 1893
--And Woking was perhaps the first heathlands course 1893
---And Huntercombe was another earlier great heathlands course 1901

Princes Golf Club at Sandwich…1904…UK course designed specifically for the Haskell golf ball

Chicago Golf Club, Garden City Golf Club, and Myopia…1895-1900, represent some of the significant early American golf courses

Pinehurst…1907…a great and historical golf resort

National Golf Links…1911…the first world class course in America; a watershed moment in American golf course architecture

Merion…1912 (or 1914)…first 36 hole golf club in the U.S.

St. George’s Hill…1913…great gated housing/residential combined development

Lido…1914…first “mega-expensive” golf development that included ground building, its disappearance was also significant


1914-1918…World War I


Mountain Lake…1915…first American golf/residential combined development  ??

Oakmont…1916-1927…our work suggests the course transformed to greatness during this time frame, coinciding with EMIL LOEFFLER becoming head greenskeeper.

Pine Valley…1918…a great “collaborative” golf course

Pebble Beach…1919…I don’t know why it was groundbreaking, but I am putting it on the list for some unknown reason

Mid-Ocean…1921…great “tropical” golf course

Jasper Park…1925…first great mountain golf course

Yale…1926…one of the first great heavy construction golf courses



1929-1932 (1939)…Great Depression


Tokyo GC and Hirono…1932…great Japanese golf courses

Augusta National…1933…first golf course designed for spectator/tournament golf

Bethpage State Park...1935…historical course/golf complex built with Public Works Administration money which was provided by the government to help combat the Great Depression.  Other courses of note regarding the P.W.A. were: Prairie Dunes, Ohio State GC, Indian Canyon, Memorial Park, North Fulton, Split Rock, and Mark Twain.


1940-1945…World War II


Peachtree Golf Club…1948…first great RTJ course…big/elongated teeing areas, big greens

Dunes Golf & Beach…1949…first course to use a template to aid real estate sales (RTJ)

Desert Forest…1962…first desert golf course

Victoria Golf Course…1962…first landfill golf course

The Golf Club…1967…minimalist golf course in the era of RTJ Maximism

Harbour Town…1967…another counter to RTJ

Shadow Creek…1989…ultimate expression of mans power to create; it is a lush oasis in the middle of desert waste land

Sandhills…1994…minimalist, first “build it and they will come” course

Bandon Dunes Complex…1999…Like Pebble, I can’t come up with why its groundbreaking, but I think it should be on the list

Machrihanish Dunes…2009…first minimalist/self-sustaining great course ??



As always, thoughts, critiques, comments are welcome.


Should something be removed, should something be added?


Anyway, thus far…here is what I/we got.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom M…

Per your comments on Pinehurst, “I don't think Pinehurst #2 was the premier resort course in 1907”,  I decided to review the facts regarding the course as I know them...as I previously mentioned I would.

1895…James W. Tufts purchases the land that will become Pinehurst

1898…a 9 hole course is built

1899…the clubhouse opens

1900…course in expanded to 18 holes
        …Harry Vardon puts on a 4 day exhibition at Pinehurst, this draws national attention    
           to the resort

1901…golf is so popular among its guests, another 9 hole course is built

1907…Pinehurst #2 debuts and due to this the course is “vaulted to the front ranks of       
         the country’s golf resorts”…quote from “Discovering Donald Ross” by Bradley    
         S. Klein.


Perhaps it wasn’t the premier resort course, but it certainly appears to have been one of the premier resort courses.  I have changed the verbage regarding Pinehurst from “the first great resort course” to “a great and historical golf resort.”

I trust no one will take issue with that, but, as always, I am open to further discussion.  And, once again, I enjoyed doing this extra research and double checking my thoughts/ideas/knowledge.  Thanks!

[Adam Clayman]

You could add Lawsonia Links in the 1929 timeframe.

It may not be ground breaking to those in the N.E. but, it sure is important. Talk about untouched?

[Yancey_Beamer]

I was told by employees of Pebble Beach that the reason for American architects was that with World War One it was impossible to employ an English or Scottish architect,therefore Jack Neville and Douglas Grant were chosen.It was the first course to have piped irrigation on all eighteen holes.It was the site of the USAmateur in1929, the first major championship held west of the Mississippi Basin by the USGA.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Mac:

Rosapenna in Ireland was opened in 1893 as a golf resort with hotel. Was it the first golf resort? I don't think so as there were other courses in the UK that were built as resorts as well. Was Cruden Bay the first?

Dónal.

[Niall C]

Donal

I think there was any number of "resort courses" about this time. St Andrews and North Berwick being the obvious examples in Scotland. Also Carnoustie in certain months was full of visitors and I'm sure Rich would confirm that Dornoch was the same (not that I'm suggesting he was about then  .

There might not have been one owner owning the course hotel and everything else but in many instances there was a popular movement by people to get their town a course to attract tourists. Lossiemouth was largely developed for this reason and even had its own newspaper which was short lived to promote the town and its golf.

Mac

Not to be pedantic on what has been an interesting thread but on North Berwick being the first course to allow woman, I would suggest that you are wrong both in the fact and probably the question. Many of these early links were common ground and open spaces where anyone could pitch up and play and indeed use the links for a variety of reasons. There were no restrictions on women golfers as far as I am aware. Subsequently ladies course were built specifically but that was because it was thought that shorter courses were more suited to the ladies.

Perhaps the question should be what was the first club that owned its own course and didn't allow members into the club and and on the course. As for the answer, I've no idea.

Niall

[Jim Nugent]

I would take Bayonne off the list.  It's probably not great, and I don't see that bullding on a landfill is meaningful.

I also would take off Shadow Hills.  Lido got there 60 years earlier. 

On Machrihanish Dunes: what does "sustainable" mean?

A few questions on Oakmont.  Was it the first tournament course that was so penal?  That had such fast, diabolical greens?  Did it and/or its features influence other courses?

If Mac had started the Merion threads, I bet things would not have gotten so crazy. 

 

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Donal

I think there was any number of "resort courses" about this time. St Andrews and North Berwick being the obvious examples in Scotland. Also Carnoustie in certain months was full of visitors and I'm sure Rich would confirm that Dornoch was the same (not that I'm suggesting he was about then  .

There might not have been one owner owning the course hotel and everything else but in many instances there was a popular movement by people to get their town a course to attract tourists. Lossiemouth was largely developed for this reason and even had its own newspaper which was short lived to promote the town and its golf.

Niall

Niall:

When I referred to a "resort" type of course, I was thinking about a course that was built to tap into the tourism trade. St. Andrews, Dornoch and North Berwick certainly attracted tourists, but were they built for the purpose?

Lossiemouth was founded in 1889, so was this the first course built to attract tourists?

Dónal.

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Niall,
That should read:
"In 1832 North Berwick Golf Club was founded, this was the first to allow ladies to play a fuller part in the everyday affairs of the club, though the gentlemen’s generosity did not extend to allowing the ladies entrance into tournaments."

North Berwick does bill itself as having the first Ladies nine-hole course in Scotland.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Dónal & Niall

I think Castletown on the Isle of Man counts as one of the first real resorts being designed in 1892/3. Cruden started in 1894 but did not open until 1899. Rosapenna did not start I believe until 1894/5 although the course was playable as early as 1892/3.

I feel that St Andrews and North Berwick were towns with a course rather than resorts, although by the introduction of more courses they could (perhaps) be defined by the mid 1890’s as going in that direction.

One thing that we must remember is the period. These were the days of the mass Sunday outings, with new piers appearing at seaside resorts and the steamers taking the ordinary people around the islands. Courses like Machrie and Uisguintuie on Islay benefiting by the steamers. Between 1890-1910 steamers moved many around the coast of GB. Those close to the ports/piers enjoyed many visitors and seemed to flourish whilst those further away tended to rely on locals.

As for resorts, this was also the time of The Spa, places like Strathpeffer Spa came into their own with direct links via train to London. Their course is circa 1886 and could be regarded as a resort town of sorts.

However, I believe that Castletown on the Isle of Man gets my vote as one of the earliest resorts with hotel and golf course IMHO. 

Melvyn