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Mac Plumart

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Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« on: November 19, 2009, 07:22:42 PM »
I've been studying golf courses and I am trying to get my arms around which courses truly brought something new to the table and were groundbreaking in some manner.  Please review what I've got so far and add in any comments you might have.  If I am wrong on a point, please let me know.  If I've missed something or overlooked a course, let me know. 

St. Andrews Old Course---first great golf course

Sunningdale (old)---first great heathlands course and first great non-links course for that matter

Myopia Hunt, Garden City, NGLA---first great american courses

Pinehurst #2--first great resort course

Pebble Beach---first great Monterrey Course

Banff---first great mountain golf course

Yale---first great heavy construction course

Augusta National...first course built for spectator golf

Desert Forest---first great desert golf course

Peachtree---first great RTJ course...large (and multiple tees), large greens...begins the RTJ era

The Golf Club---first minamlist design in the maximist era

Shadow Creek---creating something out of nothing...manmade oasis in the middle of a desert

Sand Hills---pure natural minamilist golf...first build it and they will come course

Bandon Dunes complex...is this a breakthrough facility?

Like I said, correct, critic, add, subtract, etc.

I am brainstorming and thinking out loud and would love some feedback.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2009, 07:25:48 PM »
How is it that ANGC was built for spectator golf? I doubt Bobby Jones would agree with that.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David_Tepper

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2009, 07:32:02 PM »
Mac -

You may want to add Harbour Town (Hilton Head) to your list:

1) Countered the RTJ-trend of "big" golf courses.
2) First prominent Pete Dye design & introduced railroad ties.
3) Brought Jack Nicklaus into the GCA-business.

DT  

 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 10:20:45 AM by David_Tepper »

Mac Plumart

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2009, 07:33:08 PM »
Garland...

I got that from page 88 of The Golf Course by Cornish and Whitten...

"Augusta National was specifically designed with spectator golf in mind.  Several greens were situated to provide vantage points from nearby hills.  Several mounds...blah, blah, blah"

Anyway, that is where I got it from.  If anyone, including you, feels it is wrong or that Augusta should be on or off the list for any other reason, I am all ears.

Like I said, I am looking to learn and gather feedback.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 09:02:20 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2009, 07:33:48 PM »
David...

Very, very nice!!!

Thanks!!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2009, 08:24:10 PM »
What about the first successful landfill course? (not that I know what/where it is!)

Van Courtland Golf Course - The first public golf course, at least in the US.

Hirono - First great Asian golf course.

National Golf Links - First great use of template architecture.

Should Mid Ocean be on this list as well for "tropical climate"?


Also, was Yale built before Lido?

Mac Plumart

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2009, 08:26:18 PM »
Jaeger...

I don't know about Lido...I will look into it.

Excellent stuff!

I love the landfill idea.  That is absolutely revoltionary.  I'll try to find out...if anyone knows, pass it along!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2009, 08:58:58 PM »
Mac,

Was Cornish and Whitten referring to the work of RTJ or BJ and AM?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mac Plumart

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2009, 09:03:45 PM »
I think the first land fill course was...

Victoria Golf Course
 Carson, California
 1962

But would Bayonne be the first "great" landfill course?

I don't know on either of these and would love some one to confirm or deny.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2009, 09:06:33 PM »
Garland...

In the paragraph prior to and following...they refer to Bobby Jones and Alister Mackenize.  So, I've got to believe that is whose work they are talking about.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Steve Wilson

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2009, 09:49:25 PM »
Mac,

Though it wasn't in the desert, I think the Lido precedes Shadow Creek as something out of nothing.   If you haven't already check out Moriarity's resurrected thread from 2003.  I think it's somewhere in the first three pages.

Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2009, 10:13:20 PM »
Steve...

Thanks.

I don't know a lot about the Lido...but I am checking it out.

Found this old thread...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35406.0/

Actually it is not that old.  Everyone who posts on it adds some real value to the thread.  Great starter material for an education on the Lido.  You see, this site real does impact people looking to learn about GCA.

Thanks again Steve!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

PCCraig

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2009, 07:42:30 AM »
Jackson Park GC in Chicago was the first public golf course west of the Alleghenies, which opened in 1899.

The first "Country Club?" The Country Club of Brookline which was founded in 1882.

H.P.S.

Philippe Binette

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2009, 08:00:43 AM »
you can't put a list of revolutionary courses without including:

1) Harbour Town: counterpunch to RTJ style
2) Oakmont: ultimate penal course

Scott Weersing

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2009, 08:55:56 AM »
Does a groundbreaking course have to have an influence on other designs?

Here are some I would consider groundbreaking:

1. TPC Stadium- how many other courses now have island greens?
2. Caledonia Golf & Fish Club- this was the first Mike Strantz course and led to Royal New Kent and Tobacco Road
3. Chambers Bay Golf Club- public links golf, not sure if its model will be copied again
4. Alden Pines Country Club, the first course with salt tolerant seashore paspalum, http://www.paspalumgrass.com/salttolerant.asp
5. Inniscrone Golf Club in Avondale, Pennsylvania. The first design by Gil Hanse which led to Rustic Canyon and others. http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/gil-hanse-2


Mike Hendren

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2009, 09:41:16 AM »
Wild Dunes - the first ocean-side course with linksland terrain (10,11,12,17,18) built in this country in decades and a harbinger for the return of modern golf course design to the sea.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2009, 12:43:47 PM »
Yale perhaps, for its exposition of the power of man-made golf course architecture.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Morgan Clawson

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2009, 04:17:50 PM »
Is it fair/correct to claim that Augusta National was the 1st course designed primarily to hold a significant or major tournament?

Lester George

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2009, 05:06:59 PM »
I think the Old White would have to be considered one of the first great resort courses.  1914 MacDonald, 1922 Raynor.

Lester

DMoriarty

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2009, 05:39:13 PM »
It is all pretty subjective . . .

1. I don't think Garden City, Myopia, and NGLA should be lumped together.   Garden City and Myopia were built pre-1900, and while they both reportedly morphed into very good courses, I am not so sure they started out this way.   Plus, they were both very different types of courses.   Even the changes and improvements at Garden City and Myopia focused on difficulty, whereas NGLA was the wholesale application of the fundamental links golf principles in America, and its impact was truly revolutionary (arguably, even on the two other courses you group with it.)

I would say that the first three good 18 hole course in America were Chicago Golf Club, Myopia, and Garden City.  I think Chicago, Myopia, and Garden City were considered the best in America but they were not considered great on an international scale.  In contrast, NGLA was considered World Class, America's first truly great golf course, and one on equal footing with great courses abroad.   

If you want to avoid the good/great discussion, then I think it would be reasonable to say that NGLA was the first course in America wholely based on the underlying strategic principles of the great holes abroad. 

2. ANGC may have been built for spectacular golf, but like another above, I am not sure it was the first course built for spectacular golf.  CPC seems pretty spectacular.   The setting was certainly a factor at Pebble.  Even NGLA was chosen in part at least for the spectacular setting.    In fact one could argue that just about the only thing that the very early version of Shinnecock had going for it was its spectacular setting near the Ocean.

3. Not sure I understand the significance of some of the categories, like "first great Monterey course."

4.   I don't know much about The Golf Club, could you briefly describe it and its influence?

5.   I agree that Sand Hills was a very importnat course.  I view Bandon as important because it took the great land combined with minimalist concept and applied it outside the private course setting.  It is one thing to convince a few hundred people to support a club, but quite another to survive as an out of the way public.   Although it is arguable, I view I view Rustic similarly in that it proved that understated but sophisticated minimalist architecture could succeed even at the lower end of the price scale.  I haven't played it but Wild Horse may fit in this category as well.

6.   I don't know that Augusta was built to be a major tournament course or if that was more of a plan to generate interest in the course (and the hotel employing Jones)  I'd say its major impact though has come with its television exposure, but that impact hasn't necessarily been a good thing for golf.

Like I said it is all pretty subjective.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2009, 06:07:02 PM »
Mac:

As you know fairly recently I've been particularly interested in the very first really good golf architecture in America.

As seems to be confirmed by contemporaneous accounts from back then (including Macdonald's) the first good courses and architecture in America were Myopia, GCGC and Chicago GC. The first two both preceded NGLA by almost a decade and the latter by almost fifteen years.

I don't know that much about the entire architectural history of Chicago GC at Wheaton so I have no real idea how much it has changed since its beginning in the mid 1890s. Myopia and GCGC ironically are courses that happened just about simultaneously (with apparently little to no collaboration of ideas between their architects) right around 1900 and were pretty much the way they are now with their routings anyway. Myopia is probably the most similar now to back then. And as such it very well may be the FIRST of the best really early American golf architecture laboratories we have today that has changed the least from the furthest back. Some of the greens of GCGC were changed from back then and with Myopia fewer still were changed from back then (by my count probably only 2-3). Bunkering over the years was a somewhat different story on most all those courses because the interesting similarity with them is that their architects all kept working on improving them in little ways for many years and often decades. The same modus was true with Oakmont (1903), NGLA (1908), Merion East (1911), Pine Valley (1913).
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 06:14:07 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2009, 06:38:48 PM »
Mac,
Royal Calcutta, as the first golf club established outside of the British Isles.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mac Plumart

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2009, 06:41:20 PM »
David...

Thanks for the input/questions.  There is so much there to go over, that I would like to take it one by one and give each one its due...if it is okay with you, I would love your feedback as we go.

David and Tom...

I loved the knowledge being laid out in the CB MacDonald thread laid out a few days ago.  But things got murky after awhile, but I would like to detail my thinking and questions on these courses to get my arms around the issues.

I wanted to put down only NGLA as the first great american course, but I am confused a bit on some of the issues.  Perhaps you guys or others can help clarify things.

Per all of my research and study NGLA appears to me to be the historic landmark course in American architecture...but according to the records I've found its founding date was 1911.

I keep a list of "unanimous gems", which are golf courses that all the big 3 raters (GD, GW, and GM) rank as among the top 100 courses.  And Garden City is on that list with a founding date of 1899.  Furthermore, Cornish and Whitten detail GCGC in The GOlf  Course as a Landmark Course.

However, they detail Myopia first in their Landmark American Courses chapter.

So, I am confused on this one.  Another thing that gets me is how much of the original course was truly quality and how much was built over time, potentially after NGLA.

This is why I didn't just go with NGLA as the first great American course.  

Thoughts, questions, comments, are welcome and appreciated.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 06:43:01 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2009, 06:42:42 PM »
....and I think North Berwick deserves mention as the first golf club that allowed women, although they couldn't play in competitions.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mac Plumart

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Re: Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2009, 06:45:48 PM »
Tom...

Myopia has always stood out to me as a groundbreaking course.  I think that was why it was talked about first in the Cornish/Whitten book.

Why does it seem to get overlooked so much now in the Top 100 lists?

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

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