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Jay Flemma
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« on: November 19, 2009, 05:53:22 PM » |
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I'll post more after I write my GolfObserver.com article, but here are some pix. I'll post more when I get time. Number 2 green from the right. The green slopes severely to the left, but it held for me today from here:  Number 3...a Bottle Hole it seems:  The cool cross bunkers to carry at 5. The greens at 3 and 5 slope severely away from the player! I love it!  par-3 6th...so cool. George, what kind of hole is this? Whatever it is, it's terrific! Look at the bunker to carry off the tee!  the 14th green on the Alps hole!!! (side view)  tee shot on the alps (14)  The redan (15)  And the Principal's Nose at 16  Enjoy! |
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« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 04:20:37 PM by Jay Flemma »
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Tobacco Rd, Bulls Bay, Monterey. Penin. (Shore), Oakmont, Sleepy Hollow, Oakl. Hills (So.), WBYC, Rolling Green, Atl. City CC, Cherry Hills, U.Michigan, Colonial, Ok. City G&CC, Knoll (West), Tamarack, Essex Cty CC, Antigua, Bulle Rock, Whistl. Sts (Sts), Black Rock, Red Tail, Black Creek, Wild Hse.
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Jim_Kennedy
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2009, 06:09:40 PM » |
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Jay,
Nice photos from such an overcast day and the course looks superb.
One question, I don't think that the 14th is an 'Alps', pretty sure its constructed as the "Lion's Mouth".
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George_Bahto
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2009, 06:18:20 PM » |
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Jay, the 6th is Tillinghast version of Redan - note the kicker on the right, way into the green for one thing.
About 3 years ago we deepened the pot bunker in front and able superintendent Jason Thompson expanded the green dramatically to the left rear and actually in near all directions. That green is now about twice the size it was when Gil and I started the project.
What you are calling an Alps is a raised, two level punchbowl green (short yardage), the green guarded by a great (Banks) Lions Mouth bunker. He really like the LM bunker - used it a lot.
The next hole #15 is an off center(line) Biarritz not a Redan - very different than any other Biarritz he and his mentors built.
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“Would that I could hand on unimpaired the great
game as it was my good fortune to know it.”
Charles Blair Macdonald
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Jay Flemma
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2009, 08:48:59 PM » |
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Thanks for that guys! It'll come in handy for the piece.
What an astounding course. Congrats to all involved.
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Tobacco Rd, Bulls Bay, Monterey. Penin. (Shore), Oakmont, Sleepy Hollow, Oakl. Hills (So.), WBYC, Rolling Green, Atl. City CC, Cherry Hills, U.Michigan, Colonial, Ok. City G&CC, Knoll (West), Tamarack, Essex Cty CC, Antigua, Bulle Rock, Whistl. Sts (Sts), Black Rock, Red Tail, Black Creek, Wild Hse.
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Matt_Ward
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2009, 09:48:50 PM » |
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Jay:
Great pics from a dreary day today.
The short 14th is one hole at ECCC -- there are others -- that get so little attention.
The superb long par-4 12th is also one of the very best long two-shotters you can play in all of NJ -- especially when the pin is cut far to the left.
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Jay Flemma
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2009, 08:02:10 AM » |
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George, teach up all something...the swale at 15 is almost imperceptible...as in nowhere near a swale like Yale, Forsgate, etc...even the knoll's is much more pronounces. You can see in my picture that its just a gentle rise, but no dip. Did you find out it was a biarritz through writings?
How about 14? You have a huge bunker complex that must be carried to a punchbowl green. brian silva taught me those are the hall marks of an Alps and has built several like that. Were you able to glean that from articles from back in the day?
Also, is 12 a Road Hole?
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« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 08:18:51 AM by Jay Flemma »
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Tobacco Rd, Bulls Bay, Monterey. Penin. (Shore), Oakmont, Sleepy Hollow, Oakl. Hills (So.), WBYC, Rolling Green, Atl. City CC, Cherry Hills, U.Michigan, Colonial, Ok. City G&CC, Knoll (West), Tamarack, Essex Cty CC, Antigua, Bulle Rock, Whistl. Sts (Sts), Black Rock, Red Tail, Black Creek, Wild Hse.
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George_Bahto
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2009, 09:15:05 AM » |
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Jay asked: "the swale at 15 is almost imperceptible...as in nowhere near a swale like Yale, Forsgate, etc...even the knoll's is much more pronounces. You can see in my picture that its just a gentle rise, but no dip. Did you find out it was a biarritz through writings?" the swale was probably deeper but there is such a drainage problem there I think they "shallowed" it .... (nice word: "Shallowed" - hah) .......................... how did I figure it out? it's a Biarritz - modified to fit the land (so much for the "template-gang"  ) - they built a Biarritz on every 18-hole course, it was the par-3 with the 200-plus yardage JF: "How about 14? You have a huge bunker complex that must be carried to a punchbowl green. brian silva taught me those are the hall marks of an Alps and has built several like that. Were you able to glean that from articles from back in the day?" OK, if that's what you were "taught" - fine .... but that's a great version of an elevated, two-level Punchbowl with the Lion's Mouth guarding the green You asked about 12: Banks labeled it a Hog's Back hole in an article he wrote about the course ...................... however it has a Road Hole green complex (some of it removed by your afore-mentioned archie) and on the green there is a "Maiden" feature in the back section Where did I learn all this?? background: (a dry cleaner for 45 years .....  |
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“Would that I could hand on unimpaired the great
game as it was my good fortune to know it.”
Charles Blair Macdonald
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Jay Flemma
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2009, 04:22:03 PM » |
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Sal just posted my piece. Apparently he has a typo or two in a sub-headline he added and there is some weird formatting, (everywhere I put an apostroph, Sal's program put a weird mark?! Does everyone see that or just my computer?) WTH?? But the meat and potatoes are fine. Again, the audience is every golf fan, not architecture experts. We're trying to educate everyone. http://www.golfobserver.com/blog/blognews/Jaystakeongolf/2009/11/20/georgebahto |
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« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 04:23:56 PM by Jay Flemma »
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Tobacco Rd, Bulls Bay, Monterey. Penin. (Shore), Oakmont, Sleepy Hollow, Oakl. Hills (So.), WBYC, Rolling Green, Atl. City CC, Cherry Hills, U.Michigan, Colonial, Ok. City G&CC, Knoll (West), Tamarack, Essex Cty CC, Antigua, Bulle Rock, Whistl. Sts (Sts), Black Rock, Red Tail, Black Creek, Wild Hse.
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Donal OCeallaigh
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2009, 04:42:06 PM » |
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Jay: I see them too! There are some Spanish letters and accents popping up here and there  Dónal. |
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"It might well be considered to be a game ill-adapted to the fiery, imaginative, impulsive, and impatient Irish Celt" - H.G. Hutchinson
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Jay Flemma
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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2009, 04:44:33 PM » |
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They aren't like that in my piece. I'll let it sit for a day for Sal, then run it on my site clean...without the weird carats and such. Thanks to George for the work on it.
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Tobacco Rd, Bulls Bay, Monterey. Penin. (Shore), Oakmont, Sleepy Hollow, Oakl. Hills (So.), WBYC, Rolling Green, Atl. City CC, Cherry Hills, U.Michigan, Colonial, Ok. City G&CC, Knoll (West), Tamarack, Essex Cty CC, Antigua, Bulle Rock, Whistl. Sts (Sts), Black Rock, Red Tail, Black Creek, Wild Hse.
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