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[Carl Nichols]

As I’ve mentioned before, the Cancha Colorada (Red Course) at the Jockey Club in Argentina is one of my two favorite courses in South America.  (The other is Mar del Plata GC.)  I don’t have much to add to Ran’s excellent review – see http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/argentina/jockey1 -- except for the following:

My host told me that, in the last few years, the Club has grudgingly decided to engage in some tree-trimming/removal.  There’s apparently significant resistance to engage in significant removal, and the compromise has been to pare trees back and/or trim away low-hanging branches.  I tried to convince my host that in several places they really needed to do more, but I don’t think my host was convinced.

Between the closely mowed and/or dormant greenside grass and the Mackenzie greensites and greens, our group spent the whole day grappling with incredibly fun (though difficult) chips and pitches.  Virtually every shot was off a tight lie, often over or around mounds or through slopes that seemed like extensions of the fairways – and sometimes the right way to play the shot was directly away from the hole, in order to utilize a slope to bring the ball back to the hole.

As Ran notes, the Club is a great sporting club – terrific clubhouse, two golf courses, and tons of equestrian stuff going on.  What a place!

Here are some pictures that I haven’t labeled…..

























 

 

 

 

 











 



























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[Stan Dodd]

Wow! Looks like a ton of fun.

[Ryan Admussen]

Looks like a great day out on the course! Is golf popular in Argentina?

[JC Jones]

I understand Mike DeVries was recently down there, maybe the big guy will chime in on this thread.

Questions:  Are the fairways as completely flat as they appear to be?  Is there much strategy off the tee or is it really a "second shot" course?

[astavrides]

Looks like a great day out on the course! Is golf popular in Argentina?

my impression was that it is mostly a game for the rich.  not too many public courses, although probably all courses are open to foreigners.  if memory serves, the jockey club, with the favorable exchange rate, cost me much less than $100, caddy included, a couple years ago.

[Carl Nichols]

JC:
The fairways are quite flat (as is the entire property).  I thought it was a pretty easy driving course, though I probably had to think about the kind of second shot I wanted more than I typically do, often because there were certain shots (like a stock SW with some spin) that wouldn't work very well given the green and pin. 

Golf seems to be more popular in Argentina than in any other South American country [it certainly produces more tour-caliber players than any other country], but Ryan is right that it's more a game for the well-off than here in the States.  There are probably a lot of reasons for that, but I think the main one is that Argentina is a much poorer country and so most people just don't have the money to play.   

[Padraig Dooley]

I understand Mike DeVries was recently down there, maybe the big guy will chime in on this thread.

Questions:  Are the fairways as completely flat as they appear to be?  Is there much strategy off the tee or is it really a "second shot" course?

Mike played for the Jockey Club in the recent MacKenzie Cup at his home course, Crystal Downs. The MacKenzie Cup heads down to The Jockey Club in 2012, so something to look forward to!

[astavrides]

Golf seems to be more popular in Argentina than in any other South American country

That's not saying much

but Ryan is right

astavrides was the one who was right.  Ryan was the one asking the question.

I enjoyed the Jockey club too by the way.

[Carl Nichols]

you're right -- thanks for the correction

[Mike_DeVries]

Carl,

Nice sequence of photos -- it is #1-18 in order for those who are wondering what hole they are looking at, although that might not be easy to follow.

I was down in Argentina a month ago and was impressed by the Jockey Club -- 36 holes of MacKenzie (I believe the only place that has 36 of his, with the exception of Ohio State, where they were built posthumously -- and I don't like to give the Buckeyes any credit, especially this week of the year  -- GO BLUE!!!!) -- particularly the green complexes which, as others have said, have lots of good shot values to and around them.  Alas, the fairways are quite flat like the coast of most of Argentina.  Drainage swales serve to move water off the holes and the property drains fairly well.  But the contouring in fairways would have been much better had MacKenzie been on-site for that portion of the work, with more tilted stances and better surface drainage -- think of the Old Course which has subtle movements in many places and constantly moving ground. 

Everyone talks about the Colorada (Red) course, but I found a lot to like on the Azul (Blue) course too, with a bit more movement on the ground due to its location near the low point on the property and the fact that most of the water from the Red has to go through the Blue or pipe that does the job. 

Jockey is an amazing club -- horse racing, polo, the downtown club, 36 by MacKenzie, tennis, pools, and something like 7000-8000 members!  It is a huge place and very cool.

As to the rich-poor concept, I don't know enough about S. America to know the answer, but golf has lots of opportunity there, especially with the Rio Olympics and golf in 2016.

Best,
Mike

[Rob Rigg]

Can those who have played the JC think of any courses in N Am that have such interesting green complexes despite a flat flat property - the movement looks quite spectacular from the photos - must be quite a challenge on the approaches along with chips and putts. Very cool.

[Lou_Duran]

Rob,

It is hard to think of any course I've played that's as flat as JC-Red.  While the green complexes are pretty "interesting", the contrast to the flat-as-a-pancake surroundings probably overstates it.  Compared to Pasatiempo or even Palmetto, the greens normally play rather tame.  Perhaps the reason is that they're grassed with an old bermuda strain (tifdwarf or maybe something barely mutated above common) and tend to be slower and grainier.

The course plays pretty short, particularly when it's dry.  The pictures reflect the dry, low-maintenance conditions that I witnessed during my visit several years ago.  Unfortunately, according to my host, the regimen is not the result of careful plans to feature the course's architecture, but of economic realities.

If the Jockey Club represents golf at the highest social strata in Argentina, there is not much hope for any trickle-down.  The three members I played with, all professionals in their occupations, played with clubs several product cycles old and scuffed balls that wouldn't make it into our shag bags.  On the plus side, I was "invited" to join as an international member for a very modest initiation fee and nominal annual dues.  While the facility is indeed impressive, the wear and tear is noticeable.  I would guess that something like it would never be attempted in modern Argentina. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Do any of the Mac experts here know how much is still original? From the photos, it looks like most if not all of it.  The design seems to have a lot of the intricately shaped greens, with wild shapes and contours.  It would be somewhat sad if the best preserved Mac course was actually one of his lesser designs, due to topo, local construction, etc.

It would also be interesting to know how much Mac was there for the shaping. Clearly, the mounds are not as natural and free flowing as typical Mac mounds and if he was there, it would probably be a case of no matter how hard he tried, the local laborers just couldn't quite grasp the concept of adding a little more fill at the base of slopes to make them tie in.  If he was only there a little, it would make more sense to me, although tie ins on flat slopes are always harder than when you have something to work with.

 

[Bill_McBride]

Can those who have played the JC think of any courses in N Am that have such interesting green complexes despite a flat flat property - the movement looks quite spectacular from the photos - must be quite a challenge on the approaches along with chips and putts. Very cool.

Talking Stick North is about the only course I can think of.  South is a few steps behind, not sure why since they are side by side.

The old Desert Inn course in Las Vegas was also pretty flat and was a lot of fun to play.  Now it's another Wynn casino hotel.   

[Bill_McBride]

I understand Mike DeVries was recently down there, maybe the big guy will chime in on this thread.

Questions:  Are the fairways as completely flat as they appear to be?  Is there much strategy off the tee or is it really a "second shot" course?

Mike played for the Jockey Club in the recent MacKenzie Cup at his home course, Crystal Downs. The MacKenzie Cup heads down to The Jockey Club in 2012, so something to look forward to!

How many players did the Jockey Club send?

That is a terrific event.  My Valley Club friends have played in the past and had a great time.

[Carl Nichols]

Lou:
I don't know when you were in Argentina, but the economy has improved over the last several years, so there is more trickle down than in '01 - '04.  There's also been a recent proliferation of gated communities [for security and other reasons], sometimes with a golf course inside, and I suspect that places like Nordelta (Nicklaus course in a gated housing development) have pulled money away from the older places like the Jockey Club.   

[Mike_DeVries]

Rob,
Essex CC in Windsor, Ont. has very cool green complexes (not as elevated as at the Jockey) and it is a flat property, evidenced by the surrounding area, although the course has a little more movement in it, due to Ross contouring the greens with material sculpted from the fairways and subtle lower elevations, which is used for some holding ponds (I think the larger one is more modern and not the original irrigation source, but now serves as that?  Jeff Mingay could answer this.).  Anyway, I think the greens are fantastic and the course is very flat.

Jeff,
The course is quite original: exceptions include the 5th and 8th greens on the Red, which were redone in recent times, bunkers all around are not even close due to years of maintenance and poor remodeling, and the "other side of the road" on the Blue, where the pond has changed a little.  It is also my understanding that the Red's 4th and 6th greens were originally a double green, although now they are separated by short grass in a deep valley and the 6th is very elevated from that.  MacKenzie was only around S. America for 2-3 months so he was really only around for the basic greens shaping -- hence, that is the highlight of the courses and the tees and fairway shaping are not up to his standards (I think that also is one of the reasons it is sooooo flat and without more continuous movement like at the Old Course.).

Best,
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Bill,
Jockey sent 7 players and I played as their pro (now that is desperate, I know some of you are thinking that, but I was given typical handicap strokes -- it is a friendly competition and blood is usually not drawn!).

It is a great event and the camaraderie and sharing of information about MacKenzie and the preservation of his work is really what it is about, not the tournament.

Mike

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,
Jockey sent 7 players and I played as their pro (now that is desperate, I know some of you are thinking that, but I was given typical handicap strokes -- it is a friendly competition and blood is usually not drawn!).

It is a great event and the camaraderie and sharing of information about MacKenzie and the preservation of his work is really what it is about, not the tournament.

Mike

I almost joined Alwoodley as an overseas member just in the event that I might be able to participate in a Mackenzie Cup!  It does sound great, but I think Alwoodley wouldn't have to delve into the overseas dilettantes to fill out their team!

[Ally Mcintosh]

I was just reading a Tom Simpson essay (from Hawtree's 'Aspects of Golf Architecture 1925 -1971') where he talks about a letter that Dr. MacKenzie had just sent him... The letter was from San Isidro (The Jockey Club) and its point was to show off a hole to Simpson that MacKenzie was just designing, knowing that he would appreciate it...

The hole was a strategic masterpiece, made possible by the natural course of a stream that ran through it... Simposn had asked the question whether the stream's course had been altered, so perfect was it for the hole... MacKenzie replied in the negative...

Yesterday I looked up the masterplans of the two courses. There is no hole that anywhere near resembles MacKenzie's design...

If I get a chance, I'll scan the plan... (unless anyone wishes to beat me to the punch)

[Tom MacWood]

Are San Isidro and Jockey the same place? San Isidro was adjacent to the sea according to the plan for the hole Simpson discussed.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Are San Isidro and Jockey the same place? San Isidro was adjacent to the sea according to the plan for the hole Simpson discussed.

You are right Tom... I forgot that detail... I presume that the Jockey Club is not then, even though its address is San Isidro...

In that case, do we have any details of the "other" course that Dr. MacK was designing?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom M:

San Isidro is the suburb where The Jockey Club is located.  The courses for Jockey Club are a couple of miles from the sea.

There is also a San Isidro Golf Club, whose club history goes all the way back to 1918 [so if Dr. MacKenzie worked there, it was a renovation, but probably 50% of his work was renovations].  The pictures I've seen look as though it is also a little bit inland, though.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Just looked up the plan of San Isidro Golf Club which also appears to be inland (as TD says) and also doesn't have a hole remotely like the one Dr. Mac had designed...

All we know is his letter was posted from San Isidro... So maybe it was the design of another hole that he was working on whilst on site at The Jockey Club?....

I'd love to know if that hole ever made it in to the ground...

[Carl Nichols]

Ally:
Could it be a hole for El Boqueron? 

Tom D:
That's actually the River Plate (Rio de la Plata), not the Sea, that's a couple of miles from the Jockey Club -- though the River there is quite wide and probably brackish.. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally:
Could it be a hole for El Boqueron? 

Tom D:
That's actually the River Plate (Rio de la Plata), not the Sea, that's a couple of miles from the Jockey Club -- though the River there is quite wide and probably brackish.. 

Carl,

It's not El Boqueron...

I've found info on the El Boqueron thread that suggests it might have been a course called El Nautico San Isidro... Look at the David Edel posts which are fascinating:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38874.0/

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Randy Thompson and I did renovations to San Iidro Golf Club. It is 18 holes on about 86 acres. At the time I was not interested in a club's connection to any famous architect, although at San Isidro I don't recall that we made wholesale changes to the course. Randy probably has a better memory about it than I do. It is within a congested residential and commercial area. There were a number of excellent amateur golfers that played from there, one particularly named Frank, who did golf tournament telecasts, can't think of his last name. I believe we regrassed the greens to bent in the process.

[Lou_Duran]

Carl,

I am glad to hear things are getting better.  It was Nov. 2002 when I played the JC.  I haven't heard from my cousin in BA that things are all that improved, but perhaps she is not paying attention.  For what it is worth, an investment firm I am acquainted with is very bullish on Brazil, but won't touch Argentina with a 10' pole.

Kelly,

Bent in BA?  I understand that it gets extremely hot there and with the proximity to the river, I think it would be humid as well.

What do you know of the business and economic climate there?  Can golf gain a foothold?  How about in Brazil?

 

[Carl Nichols]

Lou:
Nov. 2002 was a pretty bleak time down there, right after the 2001 crisis/seizure of bank accounts/etc.  From 2003-2007 or so there was some decent growth, but the current Administration is a complete joke, and is doing all kinds of things to ruin the economy.  So while things remain better than 2002, (a) that's not saying a whole lot, and (b) wouldn't lead me to invest in a significant project.  It's unclear whether things will trend positive or negative. 

[David Edel]

Hello<

Ally can't wait to see your scan.  The El Nautico San Isidro plan that I have has two creek formations.  They are not really creeks or streams, as plan was developed from dredge spoils, so the creek features were probably developed for water drainage, and strategic value when the land was created.  The land is acutally an island, so the entire property is surounded by a narrow canal system.  El Nautico is primarily a sailing club so the clubs major focus is on boating.  

El Nautico has a perfect rendition of thel Lido hole.  A 1927 article in El Nacion talked of Aubrey Boomer and Henry Cotton asked to create a plan for the club.  The club wanted these architects to create a golf course with the famed holes from around the world.  I think it is safe to say that the clubs wishes were in part maintained by Mackenzie.  

The Nautico plan has a 9 hole preliminary plan that was to morf into the 18 hole master plan.  Only a little boot shaped piece of land existed when Mackenzie was in Argentina.  The club has a 4 story look out tower, and my guess is he was able to look out over the land and do some of his work from a birds eye view. The 18 hole plan was never executed as a large dike wall was developed and a small marina created on the far end of the property.  Carlos Blasi the club professional reportedly created the new design.  The course has always suffered from extreme flooding.  The winter storm surge would flood the property and destroyed much of the course on several occasions.  For this reason the club created the dike to prevent annual destruction of the course.  As you can imagine the original plan along the water was awesome as he designed it.  The lido is on this part of the layout.  The club existed as a 9 holer until the early 50's.  It also operated as a 6 holer for 7 or 8 years after it was first created.  The original Mackenzie 9 hole routing is very simple to accomodate the changes that he envisioned taking place in the preceeding years.

As far as San Isidro Golf club, there is an article on the new greens at San Isidro recently finished by Luther Koontz.  Koontz for those who do not know, worked for Wendell Miller Group and stayed in South America till the 50's.  He is listed as a Super at Palermo in the mid 40's or Golf Club Argentino as is was called before Peron got his hands on it.  He also did seven greens for San Andres, and many of the greens at Olivos, before the club moved to its current site.  I believe that much of what people claim as Mackenzie in Argentina is actually Koontz's work.  Not to say that Mackenzie did not see the properties and provide suggestions which were done by Koontz?  

Anybody know anything about Koontz.  Neil Crafter should be able to figure out were he ended up.  My trail on him dies around the mid 50's.

David

[Tom MacWood]

Here is the drawing.

[Randy Thompson]

Lou,
Argentina is a difficult business climate for sure, there are probably more planned golf development´projects than in the US at this moment. The economy is so so due to the politicians more than anything else as Carl mentioned. But it is also one the less effected by the world slow down...they live in crisis, so its no big deal to them. Brazil has really impressive numbers and Lula really knows how to sell his country. But there is a lot of corruption and the enviromental agencies are worst than California. ITS very, very difficult to do business there and the beuracracy is at the highest level. I have not talked to anyone doing busisness there from the states that don´t have a nightmare to share. Nicklaus had a project there and tried for about eight years to get it off the ground and going, at one point Trump put his name on it for a million bucks. Last week I heard the project was dead, killed by the enviromental agencies. Your chances of getting screwed in business deal in Brazil are about 98% and in Argentina about 80%. there are some good serious people in Argentina but you would never sleep because you would live in fear what the goverment could do next but hopefully that will change.

[David Edel]

Hello,

From the drawing posted from Tom, this has attributes of the 6th hole on El Nautico  but is not oriented the same way to the river.  The stream has more curves than the Nautico plan, but they both play over the stream twice.  My guess is he recognized that the River Plate, was not a sea, so it would speculation that this has any similiarity at best.

David

[Neil_Crafter]

Ally, Tom
Are one of you able to post scans of the article by Simpson? Love to see it. I have not got that book by Hawtree - I have the earlier one - and I'm interested to hear of the Mackenzie / Simpson correspondence as I was unaware of it.

As for Luther Koontz and David's suggestion that I know where he ended up, I have to say I don't. If I had to guess I'd say he remained in South America but its only a guess. Koontz travelled down with Mackenzie from the US to Buenos Aries as Wendell Miller's representative but did not leave with him. Mac went back to England when he left South America. Koontz stayed, must have liked the place!!

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Koontz stayed, must have liked the place!!

Sounds like Randy T.