Jockey Club

[Randy Thompson]

Lou,
You probably beat out D. R. Richardson to win the club championship that year! I was there from 81 to 83. I built a putting green for charles in his back yard but still didn´t help, his putting was his weak point, hellofa nice guy and excellent family I always admired! He had a lot to do with the design at fairway also. I agree plummer did an excellent job, its a good design and still a good bargin in the metroplex, one of the best in my opinion for the price outsiders pay. I played there about a year ago and now looking at it from architects eyes, I would only change the 17th par three and put a little fairway in front, sixteen and seventeen back to back, one of them would always sneak up and bite you and there went the good round. But sixteen was a good par five, requiring two well placed shots. Not sure if you remember but they experimented with a product to take out the overseed and try to speed up the transition and lost a significant amount of Bermuda...thats when I got hired.
Chile has some good courses and always getting better, some good costal experience and one that Kelly and I did just got named one of the best designs in Chile ny Golf Digest Latin America and is called La Serena and is built in the dunes and is five hours north of Santiago. The other was Santa Domingo Los Rocas, which has about fifty years and some really nice pine trees and built close to the ocean. Anyways if you get down here, let me know and we can play some and visit some. We are adding the second nine at this time to Santa Martina built at the base of the Andes on an incredible site, and this nine should raise the bar for golf in Chile, its going to be strong. We just finished shaping the first four and half holes and it took one month, that should tell you...were editing the property not creating nothing but some nice bowls and a few bunkers. Maybe I will post some pictures in the near future. Take care! I posted some photos of la serena about a year ago and if you search you maybe be able to locate them. Take care!

[Lou_Duran]

Randy,

I left GD in May 1981, but I was already a member at Walnut Creek and Great Southwest by then, so I wasn't playing GDRA (Squaw Creek) much anymore.  Richardson won most of the plant tournaments, but as a 3 at that time, I didn't qualify for the championship flight.  My recollection is that a young red-haired guy, also by the name of Randy, won it that year.  I think this fella turned pro eventually.  A weekend group that I am still a part of plays out there occasionally, and it is one of the best deals around.  That they allow the group to BYOB is not bad either.

The 16th hole at SC is one of the great strategic par 5s built on flat ground without a single bunker until you got close to the green.  With the creek running diagonally on the second shot and into the prevailing southwest wind, it was a SOB.  The 17th always played hard for me, but that greenside rock wall with the evergreen planters was an abomination.  I actually liked the quirky 18th hole and could seldom get my pitch or chips up the steep slope to the level where the cup was cut.  And come to think of it, #15 was a great driving hole as well with a very difficult green.  Really, there is a bunch of good golf out there.
 
Charles Coody doning his Amana bucket hat and standing erect with his long putter makes for quite a contrast to today's tour golfer.  He had a rather flat looking, somewhat quick swing, and as I recall, he'd hit a low-boring right-to-left shot most of the time.  He seemed like a nice guy.

I've been promising Mike Young that I would visit his place in Costa Rica pretty soon.  Maybe an extension to Chile is in order.   

[Randy Thompson]

Lou,
and if you come all that way,,,its just an another hour and half flight to B.A and we can have some more fun and play a couple there and maybe even the Jockey Club which got all this started! Hope we can cross some time and meet, my kids live in Fort Worth, so I am there a couple of times of year, my daughter lives in front of Shady Oaks, another decent track, have only seen the changes from the road and always say I am gonna cross the street and walk it but she is pretty póssive of my time. My last adventure in Texas before moving to South America was over seeing the construction of the Cliff´s at PK and I stayed on as director of golf, that ball eating layout but some spectacular views.

[Mike_DeVries]

Donald,

Mackenzie did not see the final product.  I just spent a week with Mike DeVries consulting at the Jockey and we made some observations that may be relative.  I actually was a witness, Mike was consulting.  It would appear that due to the time lines of his experience in Argentina, roughly 2.5 months that he was directly involved in with the construction and shaping of the greens.  Also, those who know the jockey see alot of undulation near the tees, but that is were it stops.  Apart from from holes 13 and 15 which have significantly more slope and undulations than any of the other holes on the course.  It would seem plauseable that he was around for tee development, and the initial movement near the tees was executed, but never carried through to the greens? 
The blue course has substantially more movement as it was a dumping ground for earth moved during the drainage channels and the development of the lakes on the blue.

At the time he left, what was the skill level of Koontz to carry out the vision of Mackenzie is unknown.  It would be nice to look at club ledgers of committee meetings to see what was on the agenda, but all those are lost to the great fire.  My guess is that they would have had comments on expenses to create more undulations.  It is important to note, that all the courses accept for Mar Del Plata and Ranelagh were extremely flat.  Maybe the powers to be were concerned that the course would have been to difficult with all that slope, and decided to halt further development of contour?  Maybe the depression started to have its affect and they looked for a way to cut costs?

I think Mike could give a greater description of his thoughts on the matter.  To what I have seen at the Jockey, the influence of Mackenzie is the routing and the green complexes.  Apart from that, it was left to inexperienced supers, Koontz, and the club professionals that were at the club.  Namely Tomas Genata and later Enrique Bertolino who were both very well respected.

So much potential to make it something great.

David

Randy,  I too got bedazzled  by a Chilena.  Koontz must have been a stronger man if he didn't.

David is correct, that MacKenzie was not there for the shaping beyond the green complexes (and subsequently some of the tees, due to proximity to greens) and I think Koontz finished off the rest of the work but didn’t carry it out as it should have been.  As has been noted, the green complexes are very good but then once you are off the green surface, or even close, the fairway turns very flat and there is little to no movement in the playing surface.  Just off the tees, there are swales and drainage to facilitate storm water movement, but the problem is that it usually ends 100 yards or less off the tee and isn’t carried throughout the fairway, which would have been more interesting, play-wise, and more functional, drainage and turf-wise.  I think MacKenzie got the most important aspect of the course (greens) done and figured that Koontz would get the rest done (hence MacKenzie’s exaggeration of the undulations of the fairways in his description).

[MClutterbuck]

The Jockey Club is restoring some greens using 1935 aerial photos. Mainly increasing size at this point, stripping bermuda out, adding sand and peat and Paspalum. I am not seeing much shaping done for now.

[Mike_DeVries]

The Jockey Club is restoring some greens using 1935 aerial photos. Mainly increasing size at this point, stripping bermuda out, adding sand and peat and Paspalum. I am not seeing much shaping done for now.

I have been helping them from time to time but there are few funds to devote to the golf course - same issue as always.  Was there last fall but have not heard anything since then.  Lots of great potential, so hope to continue to restore things when they can afford to.

[David Davis]

I was there, in October and certainly agree that they need to show the course some loving. A Mike DeVries makeover would be just what the good Doctor would of ordered.


They need to do some tree work and give the greens and surrounds a makeover. Such a famous and cool place it's a shame to let it dilapidate as they have.

[Thomas Dai]

The Jockey Club is restoring some greens using 1935 aerial photos. Mainly increasing size at this point, stripping bermuda out, adding sand and peat and Paspalum. I am not seeing much shaping done for now.

Peat? (terminology?).


Would like to see the 1935 aerial photos.


atb

[MClutterbuck]

The Jockey Club is restoring some greens using 1935 aerial photos. Mainly increasing size at this point, stripping bermuda out, adding sand and peat and Paspalum. I am not seeing much shaping done for now.

Peat? (terminology?).


Would like to see the 1935 aerial photos.


atb

Peat: partially carbonized vegetable tissue that is mixed in with sand for greens mix.

I dont have the aerial, can ask. Maybe Mike DeVries has it?

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks MC. Got a bit confused!
Would like to see those old aerials. Bet there’s some interesting BA city growth history within them as well.
Atb

[Mike_DeVries]

I just saw this old post and there was a request for the 1938 aerial - I am trying to upload it but it isn't working.  Can someone help with that?
Cheers,
Mike

[Thomas Dai]

Here is the 1930's aerial Mike mentions plus the most recent image from GoogleEarth plus an old b&w photo now coloured of Alister Mackenzie and his associate in South American Luther Koontz.
atb

[Mike_DeVries]

Thanks, Thomas!

[MClutterbuck]

If only that right hand side fence could be moved 70 yards west, that couse would improve no end.

[Thomas Dai]

Looking at the pre-WW2 overhead that Mike provided and I uploaded above got me wondering about the drainage channels excavated into the originally flat property and the use of the excavated material so I went web-searching for Jockey Club course photos and the following are what I found.
I have no idea as to the hole numbers nor indeed, other than the clue from the flag colours, which of the two JC courses the photos are of.
atb


Later edit - hole details added per Mike DeVries explanatory text (next post). Thanks Mike.

Blue course 9th/18th double-green under logo ball


9th blue at left, 15th blue at right


16th red course


16th red course


9th-18th Blue double-green


9th-18th Blue double green


10th Red course


17th and 10th Red


17th Red





18th Red





2nd Red from left side (possible?)


Blue 9th-18th double-green


16th Red


10th Red (possible?)





11th Red fairway bunkers (possible?)











16th Red


16th Red


18th Red


Clubhouse entrance off main road



Some pretty cool looking stuff! And 36-holes of it too! Hope they're of the right Argentine courses though!!!


atb

[Mike_DeVries]

Looking at the pre-WW2 overhead that Mike provided and I uploaded above got me wondering about the drainage channels excavated into the originally flat property and the use of the excavated material so I went web-searching for Jockey Club course photos and the following are what I found.
I have no idea as to the hole numbers nor indeed, other than the clue from the flag colours, which of the two JC courses the photos are of.
atb

Some pretty cool looking stuff! And 36-holes of it too! Hope they're of the right Argentine courses though!!!

atb

TD,

I think this may help, in order:
Overview (Blue 9/18 double green is under the logo ball)
9 blue with 15 blue green on the right
16 Red
16 Red
Blue 9/18 double green
Blue 9/18 double green
10 red
I think 17/10 Red
17 red
?
18 red
?
2 red from left side, I think
Blue 9/18 double green
16 red
10 red?
?
11 red fairway bunker?
?
?
? funky angle - can't reference
16 red
16 red
18 red
Clubhouse front off entrance

Best,
Mike