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[Bruce Wellmon]

A private club in NC now charges a "trail fee" for members to WALK on weekend mornings.

THIS MUST STOP.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Do they allow push/pull carts too?

[Brent Hutto]

My club charges members $1.50 per nine holes for rounds played walking or with the member's personal golf cart. We have done so for years and I don't see a problem with it. Why shouldn't those who use the golf course pay a modest increment (very modest IMO) in addition to dues. I don't expect to eat in the dining room or be served soda pop in the bar for free, after all.

[Clint Squier]

I think this is a good thing.  Brings us that much closer to no more "cart-only" courses.  

Face it, courses need to pay the bills.  If a "trail fee" allows me to walk when I would've been forced to ride, I'm all for it.  It's really nothing more than an increase in the base rate anyway.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

A rather capitalistic approach in the hot bed of socialism that is a country club.

[john_stiles]

Brent,

Shoe on the other foot,  hate to even breathe this,   what about a fee for dining  then ?

Right ?  You can't expect to walk right into the dining room, be served, and just pay for a dinner, beverage, plus tip.  

Those dining are paying for the lights, heat/air, right ?

Brings us much closer to golf course only courses.

John

[Rob Rigg]

Bruce,

Awful situation.

Never understood this - why can the club not increase dues by $2 to $10 a month to cover this?

Don't you pay dues to belong to a club and PLAY the course? Why should you be charged for playing, that is part of being a member!

I know this is oversimplifying the situation but "Trail Fees" encourage people to ride which might make sense economically, but it does not make any sense in terms of encouraging the optimal golf experience for members.

I have had a decent number of people email me about this situation at their club - and quite a few people have actually left and joined somewhere else out of frustration.

I would never join a club with a "Trail Fee" out of principal (not saying I am in the majority).

[Bruce Wellmon]

It's not my club, but my understanding is they allow push/pull carts.

I understand clubs have to pay the bills, but, IMO you already pay to walk ....you pay the dues.
IMO walking is an inherent right of belonging to a private club.You can take away the free lemonade in the men's grill, charge for the range balls, etc, but they can't take away the right to walk your own course.

[Clint Squier]

Carts bring in more revenue than feet.....nobody has ever proven the "electricity, maint., leasing and course upkeep costs outweight the revenue carts bring" theory.  

Trail fee is a way to bridge the revenue gap between walkers and riders.  Not to mention, the trail fee may be heading right into the head pro's pocket....a person who may already be compensated by how many cart fees are collected during the year.  

Unless the course is hugely profitable, this sounds like a great way to keep dues down by implementing an incremental cost structure.  A much worse solution would be to mandate carts on weekends, which doesn't give you any option at all.  

I'm coming from a club that mandates a cart or caddy until deep into the afternoon.  I'd be thrilled to have any option other than a $60+ caddy anytime I wanted to walk. 

[Roger Wolfe]

We are significantly reducing our cart fees and raising the dues to make up for the difference.  Walking for free is
an important part of any private club... but when a revenue stream you depend on doesn't come through... adjustments
have to be made.  I believe in charging everyone... not just the walkers.

[John K. Moore]

A private club in NC now charges a "trail fee" for members to WALK on weekend mornings.

THIS MUST STOP.

At Mid South we had something similar. It was required for everyone to ride before noon or something like that, but some of the members still walked. Basically it was ok for them to walk if they wanted, but they would have still had to pay the cart fee if they didn't pay the monthly 'trail fee.' There are far more courses doing that than you may think.

Clint: To echo what you just said, anyone who says carts aren't profitable is a really stupid person who has no clue how the business works. I could do some math to prove they are madly profitable but I don't feel like it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bruce,
Why not? If you want to be democratic about it you should be able to join a club and chose the amenities you want from the menu.

Actually it might be a way to encourage more members, i.e. your dues include nothing but the right to walk onto the property, everything else has a charge. Minimal, of course, for golf, and set values for all the others, like the range, etc.

Or your dues might give you a certain number of minimums, with small fees after you use them up, or for electives.

[Clint Squier]

Jim - I would've disagreed with you completely, until I saw my host sign for a small bag of range balls at Chicago Golf Club.  The a la carte model is certainly interesting, especially when you get to the extremes: the people who never show up and the people who don't have homes.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Clint,
I admit, it's been a little tongue-in-cheek for me on this thread, but I'm not trying to make a mockery of Bruce's lament. I fully understand where he's coming from. A semi-private club near me charge their members if any of them of them play in one of the organized leagues, justifying it by saying the member is already buying discounted rounds and the purpose of the league is to bring in extra revenue.

But there is a bit of irony to his whole story, glad you saw it.

[Jay Flemma]

I agree 1000%...trail fees are a tea tax...call the newspaper and out them...that's how the Met Golf Writes accomplished a good change at Eisenhower Park a few years ago.

[Brent Hutto]

The most golf I've ever played at my club in a month was probably 10 or so rounds, maybe with a "bonus nine" or two thrown in. That would end up being much less than 10% of my monthly bill from the club. I can't see where it matters one way or the other. If the dues were 20 bucks higher and I played for free I'd be equally happy.

And I'm not sure how anyone can construe that as somehow encouraging use of golf carts. The golf cart fee is more like $15-$20 a round as far as I know (never use them myself). I've never heard anyone say "Hell, if they're going to charge me $3 to walk I'll just pay $20 to ride instead". Then again, that little fee has been there for a long time and I wasn't around before it started.

[mike_malone]

 We have a trail fee at 75% of the cart fee during the "carts or caddies required" time. If no caddies are available you can walk and pay the fee. I was an advocate of it because the alternative was to be forced to take a cart. We do have times in the morning and late afternoon when you can walk. Sometimes you have to compromise.


   What I do get a kick out of is the view that riding a cart is classier than pulling a trolley. That I don't agree with at all.

[Carl Nichols]

Bruce:
To whom does the trail fee get paid?  At many clubs it's the head pro who leases or owns the carts and makes money from their use, with a similar arrangement for caddies, and it's been my understanding that trail fees are used as a way to compensate the pro when carts and caddies aren't used.  The alternative [assuming the need to compensate the pro somehow] would be higher dues for everyone; either way, someone pays it, and the only question is whether you think it's a cost that should be spread out or attached to specific kinds of rounds.  I would prefer that it get spread out, but at least trail fees are better than the alternatives -- carts only, or carts and caddies only.

I think at my place the trail fee is about 35% of the cart fee, and about 30% of the caddie fee (pre-gratuity).

[Rob Rigg]

Brent,

I guess it depends on the spread between the Trail Fee and the Cart Fee - if it is not that big, it seems like that people will see "perceived value" in taking the cart bc they get something in addition to just playing the course.

I see any "tax" on walking as encouraging people not to walk, but based on the responses from members of clubs where there are trail fees it seems like paying to walk is just another expense of being a member.

The idea is still bizarre to me bc I can't imagine paying to walk my own course (on top of dues) but if you need to achieve X revenue then this is one way to get there.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Carl,
Just the opposite is true about cart ownership. In the majority of cases the Pro gets a small piece of the cart, but along with that comes the day-to-day responsibility of managing the fleet. If you don't give him the small piece for looking after the fleet you'd have to give it to someone.

When your club charges you a trail fee it's mainly because they are looking for the revenue and they are paying for an amenity or amenities that benefit all the members, so everyone pays something.

[Brent Hutto]

Rob (et. al.),

I've not been around but a few years but historically there was somewhat of a 50/50 split among our membership. Some people belong to the club mainly to play golf (that's me) and others don't care so much about the golf but are really into the social events, dining and so forth. The social types would like to see the dining-room minimums much higher than their current (trivial IMO) level and the golf members would prefer to see no per-round fees at all. So we settle on a small dining minimum and a small "usage fee" for walking golfers. Plus of course the much higher cart fee. Everyone is slightly but equally unhappy I suppose.

P.S. Our professional is an employee of the club and reports to the GM, he's not an independent business entity. Carts are leased by the club and the cart fees go to the club.

[David_Tepper]

John Stiles -

Regarding the idea of a dining room fee, most golf & country clubs I know of do have some sort of dining room minimum that is charged to members on either a quarterly or annual basis. This helps cover the overhead of maintaining the kitchen & dining room operations. This is a usage (or rather a non usage ) fee of sorts.

DT

   

[john_stiles]

DT,

Agree that arrangement is pretty common.  Although in my situation it is fairly low, and can be met by buying almost anything. So 6-8 weekend rounds per month, and I am past the minimum after a few breakfasts, sandwiches, soups, and drinks.

Agreed.  Minimums are a minimum (or non-usage) fee to keep operations going.

In this (my) situation,   it would be easier for Board to raise food minimum or monthly dues than charge for walking.

The 'perception'  of nickel and diming upsets many.

John

[Garland Bayley]

A private club in NC now charges a "trail fee" for members to WALK on weekend mornings.

THIS MUST STOP.

It's a TRAIL fee folks. That means it subsidizes cart-ballers. If they want to say you have to pay your membership fee, plus a green fee to gain equitable revenue for those that play a lot versus those that play a little, that's fine. The cart-ballers would pay it too, in addition to their trail fee for using the trials that have to be maintained, rerouted, etc.

What I think Bruce's post really suggests is that they are not making enough trail fees from the cart-ballers to pay for their added expense so they are sticking it to the golfers that are sticking to the traditions of the game and walking.

[SBusch]

Why is it that a pricing system that has a relationship to the use of something is so totally unacceptable?  Should the guy who plays 100 times a year be subsidized by the guy who only plays five times a year by charging him the same price?  Apparently so.

Maybe clubs should take the food minimum all the way and charge food minimums of $5,000 a year and then you can eat and drink all you want and never get a bill.  I'd like that pricing system because I'd never leave the bar and drink some darn nice scotch all night every night.  And I'd eat a lot of steak.  And a big thank you to the people who don't drink and are vegetarian.  If the argument is that there is a high fixed cost for the course, I'd bet when you figure in all of the fixed costs of running a F&B facility, it's probably not as far off from the course as you think.

[Garland Bayley]

Why is it that a pricing system that has a relationship to the use of something is so totally unacceptable?...

Um, because walkers don't use the trails (cart paths).

[Sean Arble]

Am I missing something.  Don't the guys who use the club the most essentially subsidize the one who use it least?  Someone has to pay the staff so someone has to spend money at the club or there would be less services or higher dues/minimums.  To suggest that the guys who use it more should pay more is correct - they do pay more, but thank goodness these sorts of members exist.

I can't get my head round mandatory cart/caddie/walking fee.  If a club is struggling to survive without these extras then something is wrong.  I would think fixing the problem is better than creating mandatory usage of equipment at an extra charge.

Ciao 

[Scott Coan]

Man, 10 years since I moved out of the States and my country club but this sounds like the whole "user fees" government thing gone mad.  We haven't raised your taxes, we are just charging you user fees!  In a way I can understand the concept; the joker that plays 18 holes every day takes a heck of lot more divots than the guy that plays once a month.  Kind of throws the private club privilege on it's head however - too much of a daily fee type thing for me.

US clubs could learn a lot from how they do it in NZ.  How many greens staff are on the books at your Clubs?  My adopted course (Paraparaumu Beach) is open for play 12 months a year and gets by on 5 full time greens staff.  That's right FIVE.  We don't have pristine conditions but it is a damn fine course and the conditions are still bloody good. 

[Carl Nichols]

Carl,
Just the opposite is true about cart ownership. In the majority of cases the Pro gets a small piece of the cart, but along with that comes the day-to-day responsibility of managing the fleet. If you don't give him the small piece for looking after the fleet you'd have to give it to someone.

When your club charges you a trail fee it's mainly because they are looking for the revenue and they are paying for an amenity or amenities that benefit all the members, so everyone pays something.

Jim:
I suspect you have a better sense of the prevailing type of arrangement than I do, but it seems that at the few places where I have a pretty good sense of their arrangement with the pro, they have something along the lines of what I describe -- though several of them are moving away from the independent contractor model to the employee model. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Carl,
Of course, what you see still exists, I only meant that it's maybe 25% or less of present day arrangements, of which there are a lot more variables than ever before.

Garland,
Some of those walkers might never use the range, but they may be paying for it, so can you reasonably blame the range rat who hits 1,000 balls a day? I don't think it works that way, seeing as how there is a long list of amenities that a 'Club' provides for it's members.
The club knows 'exactly' how much it pays to lease the fleet and the staff that manages it, the cost of insuring and fueling it, and the cost of maintaining the necessary buildings to house it and paths to drive on.
Somewhere, in some part of this club's overall operation (not neccessarilly the golf carts), the business manager was either experiencing a shortfall or saw one coming, and the board decided that the most equitable place to grab a buck or two was from the walkers.
Happens all the time.

So I say, down with these socialist golf clubs and up with a more democratic model!  Give me access and give me nothing else! I'll gladly pay a few bucks for a round or a cart or a locker or a sandwich or a shoe shine or a swim or a game of tennis or croquet or Bocce(NJ clubs)  or storing my clubs or parking my car. I want a drop-down menu where I can choose what I want democratically, I don't want to be continually paying for the amenities you like that I never use. Which makes me wonder why I joined this damn club in the first place. 


 

[Bruce Wellmon]

I'm really surprised how common this appears to be. It's just wrong.

Dining? There is a Club 30 miinutes from me that is a dining club. No golf, no tennis.They do have banquet facilities, etc.  You pay dues for the opportunity to go eat there. And then you pay for your meal.
We are not members.

[Brent Hutto]

It's just wrong.

Well jeez, man. If I were you I wouldn't join such a club. Playing golf isn't worth risking eternal damnation.

[Carl Nichols]

Bruce:
What if you think about the trail fee as simply a surcharge for playing at the most popular time (i.e., weekends)?  Practically every public course charges more to play on weekends.  At a private club, you could view it as sort of like congestion pricing, which is pretty common (e.g., toll roads and certain airport landing fees). 

[Bruce Wellmon]

Carl,
      I like that. First off tee time is worth is weight in gold.

[ChipRoyce]

I see this as an indication that the cost structure for the club is out of whack and needs to be addressed at the budgetary / governance level.

To surcharge members because cart revenues are not coming in where it needs to be, just shows that they have too many carts, don't charge the right fee for a cart (too high/too low) and/or an artificial dependence on cart revenue to subsidize other operations.

At private club, carts should only exist only as a service to the members. The club should only have as many carts as needed for regular play and/or to support outing revenues.

In order to fix this, go back to the board / general manager and find out where the expenses broken? Ultimately either dues need to be raised or expenses cut to avoid this kind of reliance.