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[Bradley Anderson]

Sean,

Everyone should watch the movie Amazing Grace. It really gives a good view into the style of debate that went on in Parliment, and still does.

William Wilberforce was a very eloquent speaker. And you can see that he didn't pull any punches either. In one exchange he questions the sexual prowess of his opponent and draws laughter from the house - on boths sides of an issue. And it was OK to do that in a debate then.

Right to the end of the debates over slave trade, his opponents maintain their position. But Wilberforce didn't have to convert those men, he simply had to pursuade the audience to vote with him.

We don't have to make GCA into a forum where no one ever straps it on, or pokes fun at an opponent, because those are legitimate forms of arguement in the highest expression of the art. Yes, sometimes it crosses the line, but where do you draw the line? I think when it gets off topic, and slanderous. But otherwise I think you have to let men argue in their own way. If they get stupid they only hurt their own case.

[Rich Goodale]

Bradley

Don't misoverestimate the quality of UK parliamentary debate in the 21st Century.  It has degenerated into shouting matches in which neither side seems to listen or even accurately respond to the other.  Sound familiar?

[Anthony Gray]

  Q. What do you think of the renovations at Erin Hills ?

A.  I believe the loss of the Dell Hole represents the uncritical zenith of
the influence the internet plays in the game today.  The correlation between
instant satisfaction demanded by modern society in all phases of life is
exemplified by the critical outrage expressed and accepted by golfers who can
not see the location of their ball quicker than they can post on their iPhones
their dissapointment in same.  Each spark created by these critical fireflies
combine on the net until a conflagration of ignorance throws a weak ownership
into reaction mode destroying innovation, risk and the uncommon or unfamiliar.
 In other words, I don't like it.

------ Original Message ------
Received: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:03:15 AM MST
From:
To: "Kavanaugh,  John"

 

[Kelly Blake Moran]

  Q. What do you think of the renovations at Erin Hills ?

A.  I believe the loss of the Dell Hole represents the uncritical zenith of
the influence the internet plays in the game today.  The correlation between
instant satisfaction demanded by modern society in all phases of life is
exemplified by the critical outrage expressed and accepted by golfers who can
not see the location of their ball quicker than they can post on their iPhones
their dissapointment in same.  Each spark created by these critical fireflies
combine on the net until a conflagration of ignorance throws a weak ownership
into reaction mode destroying innovation, risk and the uncommon or unfamiliar.
 In other words, I don't like it.

------ Original Message ------
Received: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:03:15 AM MST
From:
To: "Kavanaugh,  John"

 

I have suffered from this client/player reaction many times...oh, the agony.

[ed_getka]

What should you do if you feel that you are constantly bullied, ridiculed and attacked from a certain corner? What if there seems to develop a sport of taking cheap shots at practically anything you say, no matter what it is or how you say it? Two things you need to do:

1. Ignore it. Don't grace idiots with your attention. Never respond, never react.

If you manage to do that (make no mistake: it's tough), but the bullying and cheap shots continue all the same, then:

2. Trust that others will defend you. People aren't stupid. They realise who the bully is. Make sure it's not you.

Ulrich

David,
    Here is the answer to your question. Have a great holiday season with your family.

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

You're right, everyone on here should watch the movie Amazing Grace. It might be a case when a movie is even better than reading the best about the man, William Wilberforce. What a person with a remarkable mind and soul. Sounds like he could sing pretty well too! Did you notice they even got a bit of golf into the movie too with his best friend, William Kent, the Prime Minister? 

[TEPaul]

Steve Lang:

If you like Post #425 and not #403 then I will and do apologize for Post #403. I'll even take it off the thread. Do you have any other suggestions? How about Post #402 that in flaming red letters, AGAIN accuses Wayne Morrison of pissing on Macdonald's grave, something that never even remotely happened by the way? Do you think that's appropriate on this website and if so why would that be? 

[Joe Hancock]

It's now Adjective Appreciation Friday. Today's adjectives are, in no particular order:

relentless
incessant
unbridled

[TEPaul]

Joe:

If you're going to be so critical of some of the posts on this thread what did you start the thread for in the first place? Was it to stop character assasination and other BS on here or promote it?   

[Bill_McBride]

So this becomes another thread to ignore.............

[Anthony Gray]

So this becomes another thread to ignore.............

 
Q1. What are some good trends you are seeing in golf architecture? A1. The opening up of so many great private clubs to the everyday paying customer has to be a long range good trend as more people see not only what is good at these use to be exclusive clubs, they see that they may have had it just as good all along. Despite the great pain it is causing many of my friends, the thinning of the herd of weak architects, writers, supers, members and pros is good for the golfing public. Much like illustrated by professional pitchers and quarterbacks, a diluted field of unqualified producers can dilute the entire profession. I see the bar being raised in every aspect of the game. Q2. What are some poor trends you are seeing in golf architecture? A2. Instant information has eliminated the ability of an architect to design for shot value when the firefly critic only sees the value of his shot. I am also seeing a trend where information is no longer based on intellectual value as profit motive determines the source. Q3. What courses were disappointing on the first play but then got better? A3. The greatest example was Pacific Dunes. After being told it was one of the finest in the world I asked myself, Is that all there is?, when on further reflection I realized, That is all there needs to be.


------ Original Message ------
Received: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:03:15 AM MST
From: argraydmd
To: "Kavanaugh, John"

[TEPaul]

Bill McB:

I second that.

[Dschmidt]

Hi Guys

I am reminded of the old quote, which seems very appropriate

“He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone”

Unless you all believe, you are purer than the driven snow

Melvyn

Melvyn:  I"m going to take modest umbrage with this quote, based on its context and subsequent misuse out of context over the last two millenia.

This quote was delivered in the context of stoning a woman to death.  People often forget or ignore that and use this quote a rationale for never judging anyone for anything, which - outside the context of death (which obviously precludes the possibility of human forgiveness and human redemption) is something that Jesus simply never said.  

[TEPaul]

Hasn't about half the bandwidth of this website's DG turned into a forum for general complaining (people, things, whatever etc) and now moral complaining?

Ran Morrissett ought to rename this website GeneralComplaintsAtlas.com!

[Kalen Braley]

So this becomes another thread to ignore.............

 
Q1. What are some good trends you are seeing in golf architecture? A1. The opening up of so many great private clubs to the everyday paying customer has to be a long range good trend as more people see not only what is good at these use to be exclusive clubs, they see that they may have had it just as good all along. Despite the great pain it is causing many of my friends, the thinning of the herd of weak architects, writers, supers, members and pros is good for the golfing public. Much like illustrated by professional pitchers and quarterbacks, a diluted field of unqualified producers can dilute the entire profession. I see the bar being raised in every aspect of the game. Q2. What are some poor trends you are seeing in golf architecture? A2. Instant information has eliminated the ability of an architect to design for shot value when the firefly critic only sees the value of his shot. I am also seeing a trend where information is no longer based on intellectual value as profit motive determines the source. Q3. What courses were disappointing on the first play but then got better? A3. The greatest example was Pacific Dunes. After being told it was one of the finest in the world I asked myself, Is that all there is?, when on further reflection I realized, That is all there needs to be.


------ Original Message ------
Received: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:03:15 AM MST
From: argraydmd
To: "Kavanaugh, John"

Anthony,

Even though I wasn't a fan of Barney when he was here....I must admit, this last post of his seems to be spot on!!  (Except for the part about Pac Dunes....the 1st time I saw it I was blown away and I wasn't even able to play it until 2 years later)

[Joe Hancock]

Hasn't about half the bandwidth of this website's DG turned into a forum for general complaining (people, things, whatever etc) and now moral complaining?

Ran Morrissett ought to rename this website GeneralComplaintsAtlas.com!

Tom,

It appears you'd like to take my initial post and turn it around on me. That's OK, I can handle it. But, let me ask you in all sincerity; Was my initial post to start this thread out of line, or was it valid? I understand you can only answer from your perspective, but I'd like to hear it anyway.

Thanks,

Joe

[Joe Hancock]

And Tom, hopefully I post this before you respond....

This isn't about you or me or anyone else in particular. It's about this community, the good it can do and be, and what kind of image we present as a whole. There's 1500 folks here, and we won't always agree......but we can be courteous and kind, aware of the bigger picture rather than the small sphere of ourselves.

Thanks again,

Joe

[John Mayhugh]

If you like Post #425 and not #403 then I will and do apologize for Post #403. I'll even take it off the thread. Do you have any other suggestions? How about Post #402 that in flaming red letters, AGAIN accuses Wayne Morrison of pissing on Macdonald's grave, something that never even remotely happened by the way? Do you think that's appropriate on this website and if so why would that be? 

Tom,
Here's the one thing I don't understand about this CBM grave story - you're the guy that posted it!  How can you post some garbage like that and then take offense when someone criticizes the activity that YOU claimed happened?  Does a winking emoticon mean that it's a clever, non-offensive joke?

From your own words on post #860(!) on The Missing Faces of Merion (link below)
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34272.msg697479/#msg697479

But I do admit that Wayne does have a sort of interesting way of expressing his opinions sometimes. I mean we were over at Shinnecock one time and then we went next door to Southampton GC and hung out for a few hours with Gene Greco.

I'm sure some insulting knucklehead on a slow architecture learning curve who outrageously glorifies Macdonald without really knowing much about him doesn't realize this but Macdonald and Raynor and Whigam are actually all buried in the same cemetary near one another very close to Southampton G.C. on Rte #27.

So we all decided to go over there and pay tribute to these great men. We were amongst their graves staring down at them solemnly and very respectfully, and, THEN, to our collective horror Wayne started pissing on C.B. and then one of the other's grave was close enough that he pissed on him too. I forget which one was about thirty yards away and Wayne just didn't have enough left to get that far to piss on him too and I don't think he wanted to walk that far and risk pissing on his own trousers either. We actually have some photographs of this entire momentary horror! I mean you can't really blame Wayno for this anyway, because the fact is he just has this conditon of Terette's Syndrome that doesn't manifest itself with involuntary shocking words like most Terette's Syndrome people, it only manifests itself in involuntary actual scatology of the liquid variety! We don't call him "The Pissboy" for nothing, you know. Wink

[Bill_McBride]

I was just mulling over some of the acrimony (no, nothing to do with alimony, very good Joe!) on this site in a number of contexts, and it occurred to me that none of the belligerents seem to show up at GCA.com outings like the Kings Putter, Dixie Cup or Buda Cup.

That's not exactly true, as I have seen David at several of the Kings Putters.

Anthony has been to a KP and a DC but I don't consider him a belligerent, more like an incendiary element.

The point I'm slowly muddling my way toward is like my Grillroom analogy - once you've met someone face to face, and even better, played golf with him or her, you would never get into some of the monumentally excessive pissing contests that are routine on this Dodge City website!

So how about it?  Can every GCAer make at least an effort to get to a GCA.com event once in a while?  You might even have a great time.  

[Anthony Gray]

I was just mulling over some of the acrimony (no, nothing to do with alimony, very good Joe!) on this site in a number of concepts, and it occurred to me that none of the belligerents seem to show up at GCA.com outings like the Kings Putter, Dixie Cup or Buda Cup.

That's not exactly true, as I have seen David at several of the Kings Putters.

Anthony has been to a KP and a DC but I don't consider him a belligerent, more like an incendiary element.

The point I'm slowly muddling my way toward is like my Grillroom analogy - once you've met someone face to face, and even better, played golf with him or her, you would never get into some of the monumentally excessive pissing contests that are routine on this Dodge City website!

So how about it?  Can every GCAer make at least an effort to get to a GCA.com event once in a while?  You might even have a great time.   

  Very well done DAD. Agree 100%

  Anthony

  p s  What does incendiary mean?

[Bill_McBride]

I was just mulling over some of the acrimony (no, nothing to do with alimony, very good Joe!) on this site in a number of concepts, and it occurred to me that none of the belligerents seem to show up at GCA.com outings like the Kings Putter, Dixie Cup or Buda Cup.

That's not exactly true, as I have seen David at several of the Kings Putters.

Anthony has been to a KP and a DC but I don't consider him a belligerent, more like an incendiary element.

The point I'm slowly muddling my way toward is like my Grillroom analogy - once you've met someone face to face, and even better, played golf with him or her, you would never get into some of the monumentally excessive pissing contests that are routine on this Dodge City website!

So how about it?  Can every GCAer make at least an effort to get to a GCA.com event once in a while?  You might even have a great time.   

  Very well done DAD. Agree 100%

  Anthony

  p s  What does incendiary mean?

Look it up.

[Anthony Gray]

  Bill,

  I just looked up incendiary. What did I do at the events that was incendiary. I brought you a gift from when I went to Merion. In the evenings all I did was buy you a drink and get my face licked. When are you going to start believing in me?

  Anthony

[Bill_McBride]

  Bill,

  I just looked up incendiary. What did I do at the events that was incendiary. I brought you a gift from when I went to Merion. In the evenings all I did was buy you a drink and get my face licked. When are you going to start believing in me?

  Anthony

I don't think they sell hats with your face on them at Merion.  All I got from Merion was a plastic bag.

[Dschmidt]

I think he was referring to that fire-orange outfit of yours! 

(It was yours, wasn't it? ...I really haven't been paying attention, but I have seen the outfit and I thought it was a photo of you...let me know if I'm mistaken...)

[Anthony Gray]

  Bill,

  I just looked up incendiary. What did I do at the events that was incendiary. I brought you a gift from when I went to Merion. In the evenings all I did was buy you a drink and get my face licked. When are you going to start believing in me?

  Anthony

I don't think they sell hats with your face on them at Merion.  All I got from Merion was a plastic bag.

  DAD,

  It is the thought that counts.

  Me

[Scott Warren]

FFS - the thread title has become a description of what is contained within.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Here's the one thing I don't understand about this CBM grave story - you're the guy that posted it!  How can you post some garbage like that and then take offense when someone criticizes the activity that YOU claimed happened?  Does a winking emoticon mean that it's a clever, non-offensive joke?"


JohnM:

As I recall there were four of us that day at Southampton GC which is right next to the cemetary CBM, Raynor and Whigam are all buried within thirty yards of one another. Gene Greco was our host that day. We all wanted to see CBM's grave. The pissing on the grave thing was just a joke, nothing more, certainly nothing like that actually happened; the time there was actually very reverential. That story was just a joke, nothing more, but apparently on here or by certain people it wasn't treated like a joke and has never been treated that way by a few. It would not surprise me if the two who for years now have been criticizing it and acting on here like it actually happened don't continue to insist on here it is the furtherest thing from a joke and Wayne Morrison and the rest of us should be blamed for it for the rest of time. A few, and you all know who they are, just continue to bring it up on here acting like it actually happened (it is actually on the recent CBM thread AGAIN as of a few days ago in red lettering implying again that it actually happened  ) or that it was completely irreverent. It's just that Wayne Morrison has always had something of a problem with the look of the National School style, nothing more, and that was the only reason for that story which again was just a joke. He has nothing against CBM as a couple on here have been accusing him of for years.

What I suppose I learned by all this is not to joke all that much on this website----the humor barometer on here is pretty low sometimes at least with certain people. So that's the true story JohnM; make of it what you want.

[Anthony Gray]

What I suppose I learned by all this is not to joke all that much on this website----the humor barometer on here is pretty low sometimes at least with certain people. So that's the true story JohnM; make of it what you want.

  +1





   

[RJ_Daley]

  Bradley writes:

We don't have to make GCA into a forum where no one ever straps it on, or pokes fun at an opponent, because those are legitimate forms of arguement in the highest expression of the art. Yes, sometimes it crosses the line, but where do you draw the line? I think when it gets off topic, and slanderous. But otherwise I think you have to let men argue in their own way. If they get stupid they only hurt their own case.

I've been reading this thread and the Kavanaugh proxy thread.  Having been a long time participant in GCA.com, with enough of my own transgressions into the O.T. political debates, and attempts to be humorous and falling short, or just falling short on matters of GCA in general, I'd like to think I haven't crossed the line of slander or character assassination, but have argued in my own way on some matters with conviction as a man of thoughts and rights to say/believe certain things.  If you think I've crossed a line with you, I'm sorry.

It is best when the community reigns a member in when comments get out of line, by calling them out as a foul, I think.  But, when that fails ( as some tedious and bloated otherwise private arguement threads have done) and character or reputation is maligned, the big censor hammer should fall, I believe.

IMHO, JK did cross lines and was banned for it.  And, in the Merion, Pine Valley and McD threads it was overt and distasteful and I think a consensus of the GCA.com community would say those exchanges crossed lines of merely spirited debate.  Yes, I think men do argue in their own way, and they own it when they do, to the expense of their own reputations with others in the community.  Sometimes, an authority who governs or 'owns' the community forum needs to enforce a censorship or ban when the expressions exceed the line of standards the general community or 'owner' finds unacceptable and diminishes the community's standing as a whole.  

I'm really conflicted about this whole Anthony Gray proxy to John Kavanaugh Q&A.   I am very much in agreement with the sentiments of some who say AG had overstepped his place by subverting the "owner's" ban on JK's further involvement.  I think that is correct.  Yet, I also recognise by reading these proxy answers to GCA questions of JK, that we all might miss that part of him that is keen of mind, very eloquent with his observations on the subject, and has enough wit and humor when channeled properly, to be a benefit and entertainment to all of us.  In my mind, this is a real dillema.  

Personally, I'm a big enough boy to take some witty digs about my beliefs, and often they make me re-think things (and I enjopy to give same).  JK did get really under my skin a few times, but those times wouldn't have gotten me in such a fit as to ask he be banned.  However, he DID so to others and exceeded THE LINE!  Why, would he be that nasty, I just don't know.  

As for the participants in the other Merion, PV, McD diatribes, they should have gotten "owner community/suspensions" years ago when they crossed those lines of character assasination and basic ugliness of comment.  They went beyond "men arguing in their own way", and spirited debate of the parlimentarian style Bradley observed above.  Not merely my call here, but way too many of the community tried to admonish them, or call them back to the dog pound, when they got rabid on eachother.  Yet, they persisted, and though didn't get themselves "banned/suspended", (although, even imposed their own suspensions only to return and go back at it).  And, their continued obsessions have taken down the quality of this forum greatly, IMHO.  

I'm glad I'm not Ran.  I see this as a real dillema, to preserve a long lasting forum he had created of a very interesting and highly intelligent world community of some 1500 folks who really do have something to say and impact to make on GCA.  When these participants are actually in eachother's company at outtings, the conviviality is unmistakeably genuine.  But, he/we must try to keep the great offerings of these 'obsessed' but highly informed GCA fanatics, yet reign in their misguided passions when they start to cannibalize eachother.  

At the least, perhaps suspensions before a death sentence of a lifelong ban/censorship might be in order.  

It is Ran's call, obviously.  Personally, I'd like to weigh in on the notion of a sort of probation/parole period for JK, should he choose to personally apply for reinstatement rather than proxy efforts.  And a last chance warning or be suspended indefinitely admonishment to others plying character assasination, vitriole might be in order.  We all know it when we see/read it.  Let men argue with wit and humor in their own way, as long as there is underlying respect for the other person.

[tlavin]

The concept of a "sentence" or "probation" has obvious appeal.  But, what sentence?  How long a period of probation?

I think Barney, Anthony Gray, David Moriarty and Melvyn Hunter Morrow should all be "sentenced" to play a week's worth of golf together on a carts-only resort course, maybe an Indian casino course in Mississippi or something aesthetically indigestible like that, to be followed by a thread about what they learned about tolerance, civility and the redeeming value of any form of golf on any kind of course.

Two weeks later, they'd insult the living hell out of somebody and then could be summarily banned for life.

[TEPaul]

Anthony:

I'll tell you what----the Humor Barometer on here is pretty low, at least with some people, and you are only one man on here but in my opinion, you, all by yourself, make up a pretty powerful brigade on the GOLFCLUBATLAS.com Humor Meter!

[Anthony Gray]

  Dick,

  Excellent post. To show us that he is truly repentive. JK would poor alchohol on himself and set himself on fire. Man that would hurt, but it would proove alot.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

The concept of a "sentence" or "probation" has obvious appeal.  But, what sentence?  How long a period of probation?

I think Barney, Anthony Gray, David Moriarty and Melvyn Hunter Morrow should all be "sentenced" to play a week's worth of golf together on a carts-only resort course, maybe an Indian casino course in Mississippi or something aesthetically indigestible like that, to be followed by a thread about what they learned about tolerance, civility and the redeeming value of any form of golf on any kind of course.

Two weeks later, they'd insult the living hell out of somebody and then could be summarily banned for life.

  I've played with Barney and I've played with David. Had a great time with both. I'm in if Melvyn brings the original championship belt.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony:

I'll tell you what----the Humor Barometer on here is pretty low, at least with some people, and you are only one man on here but in my opinion, you, all by yourself, make up a pretty powerful brigade on the GOLFCLUBATLAS.com Humor Meter!

  THat is the nicest thing enybody has ever said to me Tom. I'm going to IM you a photo of MOM.

  Anthony

[TEPaul]

What is this JK proxy thing? Is it some kind of proxy vote to reinstate him on here? If so, if JK agrees to pave my driveway for free I will mail in 751 proxy votes for his reinstatement. On the other hand, if he doesn't agree to pave my driveway for free, I swear to God I will publicly assasinate his character and mail him Other BS daily for the next six and a half years (on the Mayan Calendar that is. ).

JK, did you know the world is supposed to come to an end next year on the Mayan Calendar?