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[TEPaul]

Bill McB:

Ironic? Have you even noticed I am trying to resolve that kind of thing on here right now and I think post #425 on the CBM thread is a good first step to do just that. Don't you think getting back to trying to have a good conversation on a pretty interesting slice of GCA history is a good way to do it?

[Mark Pearce]

Does anyone else find it ironic and amusing that Tom and David are co-opting this thread on "Character assassination and other BS?"

No.  Just deeply depressing.  And sadly predictable.  

[Anthony Gray]

  I'm going to side with Tom. He has more access...............KEEP THE PECKER UP BUDDY

  Anthony Gray GCA

[Joe Hancock]

Bill McB:

Ironic? Have you even noticed I am trying to resolve that kind of thing on here right now and I think post #425 on the CBM thread is a good first step to do just that. Don't you think getting back to trying to have a good conversation on a pretty interesting slice of GCA history is a good way to do it?

Tom,

We talked about this very issue way back in May during the Merion uproar. Because of a post(the hoping to be infamous #425) made today, after this thread was posted, doesn't send me off with a bunch of hope and a warm, fuzzy feeling.

But, give me time, maybe I can be convinced. Just not today.

Thanks for the attempt,

Joe

[Mac Plumart]

Tom Paul...

I've read your 425 post and I think it makes a ton of sense.  It will be hard for David to take at face value due to the other post previous.  But why don't we give it a try.

We should all stop posting on this thread...take 425 at its word and move on.

There are some good threads going on and many more that will be posted in the near future I am sure.

For what it is worth, I've already learned from you (Tom Paul), David, and Tom Macwood...even with the arguing.  You guys have knowledge to share and I (for one) want to learn.  So, let's move on.

[Michael Rossi]

Joe

Look what you started or are you just trying to distract some posters so the CBM discussion can get back on track.

[DMoriarty]

Does anyone else find it ironic and amusing that Tom and David are co-opting this thread on "Character assassination and other BS?"

Bill,  I'd rather not co-opt anything,  but given that I am one of the obvious subjects of the thread,  I'd like to know what I can do about avoiding this in the future.   You recently asked me why I end up in these situations with TEPaul and my post above might give you some idea of my perspective on the problem.   I'd very much like to hear what you think I should do?

What would you recommend I do if I were in your grill room and someone constantly behaved like TEPaul?  

What would you do in your grill room if someone constantly behaved like TEPaul has for years?  Not to you, but to other members?

______________________

  I'm going to side with Tom. He has more access...............KEEP THE PECKER UP BUDDY

  Anthony Gray GCA

That does it!   I'll see to it that you never golf at Rustic Canyon again!   . . . . .       Unless of course you call and make a time.   . . . . Or someone calls for you.  . . . . Or you make a time online.   . . . . Or you just show up and they fit you in.

___________________________________________

Mac,  This is how TEPaul reacts when his bad behavior is brought to the light of day.   It is the only time he wants to have a productive discussion.   See the posts above that one for a better view of his true day-to-day nature.    I said my piece on the six year old thread, and TEPaul said his.   I have no interest in discussing it with him again.

Besides the Lido very complicated issue and I don't have time to get into it to the degree necessary to do it justice.  Plus I don't like being told that I must discuss certain topics, just like I don't like being told I must not discuss them.

[Melvyn Hunter Morrow]

Hi Guys

I am reminded of the old quote, which seems very appropriate

“He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone”

Unless you all believe, you are purer than the driven snow

Melvyn

[TEPaul]

Well, Jeeez, not until today did I realize I was the only one behaving badly in the proverbial Grill Room.  

What do you know about that?

In that case, if I said I was sorry and promised to never behave badly again in the proverbial Grill Room is there any possibility it would put a complete F...ing end to threads like this one and the ones on Merion and CBM etc, etc that have become so controversial and obnoxious? 

[Anthony Gray]

   Have you guys ever seen a picture of my MOM?

  ARG

[Jim_Kennedy]

No, but I met your aunt.

[mike_malone]

 Tom,

   Who is going to read post 425? Most sensible people are long gone by then when they realize 250+ posts on that topic are a waste.

    My reasoning for suggesting that you not tell Dave what to do is that you're the guy he's pissed at and he isn't going to listen to you because you have lost his respect.

[Anthony Gray]

No, but I met your aunt.

  THAT IS BILL MCBRIDE   Or me in a couple years.  I'm jealous......Can you imangine all the attention that guy gets?

  Anythony

[Jim_Kennedy]

OOPS 

[Dan Kelly]

When will the offenders either grow up or get the hell out of here?

Yes, I'm pissed...it makes the whole group look foolish. I understand I can skip over the crap, but outsiders looking in aren't differentiating a few old people acting like children from the rest of the group that would rather they disappear. Industry people(archies, supers, construction folks) aren't going to contribute any more if this current MO of attacking and tomfoolery continues. I'm pretty sure the discussion group would be poorer for it.

If you suspect I'm referring to you...I probably am. I don't need to be specific here...there's too much crap to single out anyone.

Joe

 

Nice try, Joe. Thanks.

Life is too short....

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

That's quite the statement. You really are a funny guy, you know that?   He's lost my respect too but how do you suppose people even attempt to gain the respect back of people they've lost it with other than to suggest dispensing with all this BS about whose fault everything is and proposing we get back to doing what we do best on here----discussing some interesting subject about GCA and its history! If you'd like I could always take that post #425 and make it the first post on a new thread.

Or I guess the alternative is to turn this one into another 35 pages that just goes round and round in circles.  

[TEPaul]

" Have you guys ever seen a picture of my MOM?"


Anthony:

I really do love you; you know that!?

But I'm too old and stiff to laugh this hard.

[Michael Dugger]

Like one brilliant former poster did...

What you guys need to do is quit gca.com and start up your own chat room!

[TEPaul]

MichaelD:

That's a great idea. Allow me to throw out some suggested names for our new chat room.

1. Hugh's Lounge
2. Charlie's Bar and Grill
3. Walter's Barbeque Pit
4. Minnie Mouse's Cat House and Spa

[Joel_Stewart]

Its a fine line trying to be critical without hurting or mentioning someone by name.   Lord knows I have crossed the line numerous times.

In my feable mind I have reconciled that some of these superintendents and architects are messing with works of art and in many cases doing it for no good reason at all, other than to keep their job or earn a paycheck.  Regardless I call them out much like I do with people I work with or in other cases I am involved with.

My 2010 New Years wish is to be nicer.

[Mike_Young]

Hmmmm...is it D.D.?

[David_Elvins]

in my humble opinion Golf Club Atlas is a diverse group with members from all over the world with a diverse set of cultural standards.  There is no right of wrong way of approaching alot of these topics.

IMO trying to understand where people are coming from and showing respect for their cultural position goes a long way to making reading this discussion group enjoyable.  


PS Everytime I write something stupid, please cut me some slack and assume that I am 1) trying to be funny, 2) tired and grumpy, or 3) Australian.  

[TEPaul]

"My 2010 New Years wish is to be nicer."


Joel:

Go for it! I would make that my 2010 wish too but it was my 2009 wish and I figured I did such a good job of it this year it would be virtually impossible for me to be any nicer in 2010 than I have been in 2009. I got so nice in 2009 that towards the end of the year I actually tried to propose a way to stop Character Assasination and other BS on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com by suggesting we have a really serious discussion of whether or not Charlie Blair Macdonald was or wasn't the biggest and most arrogant SOB in the history of golf and golf architecture and what that meant to the evolution of American GCA! You want to talk nice, nicer and nicest----that was probably over-the-top nice. I even proposed it in the proverbial "Grill Room." What was I thinking.  

[mike_malone]

 Tom,

   My suggestion is to make no agreements and just not respond personally to anything anybody says personally for awhile.

   

[Ulrich Mayring]

What should you do if you feel that you are constantly bullied, ridiculed and attacked from a certain corner? What if there seems to develop a sport of taking cheap shots at practically anything you say, no matter what it is or how you say it? Two things you need to do:

1. Ignore it. Don't grace idiots with your attention. Never respond, never react.

If you manage to do that (make no mistake: it's tough), but the bullying and cheap shots continue all the same, then:

2. Trust that others will defend you. People aren't stupid. They realise who the bully is. Make sure it's not you.

Ulrich

[TEPaul]

"Hmmmm...is it D.D.?"


Mikey. What do you mean by that? Do you mean is it DD Time, as in---is it time for a D.D.----eg time to have a Dressing Drink? That was the favorite term ("It's time for my D.D.") of that Fool, the Duke of Windsor, who had the good sense to trade in his Crown for some American dame!

[Bryan Izatt]

"Perhaps it is not clear to you, Tom, that the two of you can not have a civil discourse for any length of time, so starting up another discussion on post #425 is a waste of time.  Only fools think that they can do the same thing, the same way and get a different result."


Well, Bryan, that's a pretty discouraging commentary, but thanks anyway.  

Discouraging, yes.  Sad, yes.  You two have a bad case of co-dependency going on.  I, for one, don't see either of you ever getting off the merry-go-round.  Sad, but true.       

[Mike_Young]

"Hmmmm...is it D.D.?"


Mikey. What do you mean by that? Do you mean is it DD Time, as in---is it time for a D.D.----eg time to have a Dressing Drink? That was the favorite term ("It's time for my D.D.") of that Fool, the Duke of Windsor, who had the good sense to trade in his Crown for some American dame!

Equus asinus peni

[Bradley Anderson]

How many times does anyone change the position of one's opponent? Honestly it rarely ever happens, and it doesn't matter how friendly the persuasion is, or how sound the logic is.

I think the point of arguing is mainly to influence the opinion of the audience. So the opponents can go at it hammer and tong and never concede anything to each other. It doesn't matter. So really it isn't personal at all if your opponent never agrees with you.

So I don't have to get all worked up like Yosemite Sam and make myself look like a cartoon just because my opponent never comes around to my way of thinking, or even if he resorts to name calling, or stating what my motives are.

Sorry if that sounds like a sermon.  

[Steve Lang]

  I had not read one post on that CBM thread until tonight.. and took the tep challenge to read #425. but not before some of the earlier ones to get some perspective.. now I understand Joe's lament

franky, tep as good as #425 is, you should really apologize for #403.

[Joel_Stewart]

How many times does anyone change the position of one's opponent? Honestly it rarely ever happens, and it doesn't matter how friendly the persuasion is, or how sound the logic is.

I think the point of arguing is mainly to influence the opinion of the audience. So the opponents can go at it hammer and tong and never concede anything to each other. It doesn't matter. So really it isn't personal at all if your opponent never agrees with you.

So I don't have to get all worked up like Yosemite Sam and make myself look like a cartoon just because my opponent never comes around to my way of thinking, or even if he resorts to name calling, or stating what my motives are.

You can take the good guy approch (say it with a smile, non defensive and be reasonable) or the bad guy approch (yell and get all worked up) yet some people will not react or listen to either.

[JC Jones]

4. Minnie Mouse's Cat House and Spa

Seems to me that a mouse would generally not want to have a house full of cats.  Maybe I watched too many Tom and Jerry cartoons as a kid but this is my belief.

[Bob_Huntley]

Bradley,

You wrote, "How many times does anyone change the position of one's opponent? Honestly it rarely ever happens, and it doesn't matter how friendly the persuasion is, or how sound the logic is.

I think the point of arguing is mainly to influence the opinion of the audience. So the opponents can go at it hammer and tong and never concede anything to each other. It doesn't matter. So really it isn't personal at all if your opponent never agrees with you. "

I do believe you have hit the nail on the head, very rarely is my attitude changed by a cogent opinion of a an opponent, much to my dismay when I find that he was competely right. How hard it is to admit it.

Bob

[Charlie Goerges]

[Sean Arble]

How many times does anyone change the position of one's opponent? Honestly it rarely ever happens, and it doesn't matter how friendly the persuasion is, or how sound the logic is.

I think the point of arguing is mainly to influence the opinion of the audience. So the opponents can go at it hammer and tong and never concede anything to each other. It doesn't matter. So really it isn't personal at all if your opponent never agrees with you.

So I don't have to get all worked up like Yosemite Sam and make myself look like a cartoon just because my opponent never comes around to my way of thinking, or even if he resorts to name calling, or stating what my motives are.

Sorry if that sounds like a sermon.  

I take a slightly different view.  Arguing, discourse, whatever you choose to call it, on this site its entertainment for me.  Hopefully I can learn a few things along the way and thankfully I have - even from the guys who bash each other.  Tom P turned me on to the importance of turf and its relationship to architecture back in the day - this was a revelation for me.  Tommy Mac is always coming up with interesting ideas and research, much of which is very enlightening.  However, when things turn ugly it ceases to be entertaining and I get the hell out (but sometimes after a bit too much back and forth) - perhaps trying to dip a toe in later.  I wouldn't want to see any of these combatants leave because like it or not, they provide much of the fodder for discussion.   I wish they would cut to the quick in a speedier fashion and perhaps cooperate a bit more, but the different personalities don't seem to allow for this.  It is what it is.   One is forced to take the good and ignore the rest.  I just hope that the bickering doesn't stop guys from producing some of the stimulating articles I have read from them - particularly Tomy Mac.

The bottom line is we should all make allowances because the internet is a less than ideal way to communicate.  I try to imagine everybody with a very dry sense of humour and not willing to use emoticons - nearly everything is okay in this context.

Ciao