next »

[Joe Hancock]

When will the offenders either grow up or get the hell out of here?

Yes, I'm pissed...it makes the whole group look foolish. I understand I can skip over the crap, but outsiders looking in aren't differentiating a few old people acting like children from the rest of the group that would rather they disappear. Industry people(archies, supers, construction folks) aren't going to contribute any more if this current MO of attacking and tomfoolery continues. I'm pretty sure the discussion group would be poorer for it.

If you suspect I'm referring to you...I probably am. I don't need to be specific here...there's too much crap to single out anyone.

Joe

 

[Jim Sullivan]

Joe,

Unfortunately, the arrogance that produces the problems has proven to travel side-by-side with an ignorance of just why it's a problem. They wouldn't notice until they're the last ones standing...again, unfortunately.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thank you for saying it Joe.

What's the point of a discussion group where you stop reading threads because the same people are having the same argument and displaying immature behaviour over and over under a different title?

It’s not just the industry types who laugh at us, I discovered a well known Golf Historian in the UK was a lurker and asked him if he’d consider posting. His reply referred to one of the first of these threads and he said “it started off most interestingly and then one became embarrassed to read on”.

When I first discovered GCA four or five years ago there was a prevailing sense of FUN, don’t get that feeling anymore. The acrimony has polluted the air round here.

[TEPaul]

If you guys want to see the type of thing I think can help resolve some of the issues you're talking about on this thread check out Post #425 on the "Is Charles Blair Macdonald Really the Father of American Architecture?" thread (another thread that certainly did become distinctly of the personal attack variety) and tell me what you think. I'm going to be so interested to see what the response will be and where it might lead (hopefully something that can finally be beneficial and productive).

[Michael Dugger]

The thing that disgusts me about it is we are talking about golf, golf courses, country clubs and old dead folks.

It reeks of arrogance that some people HAVE TO MAKE SURE THEIR VERSION IS PERCEIVED AS TRUTH.

[Jim Sullivan]

Tom,

The only thing that will positively address the concerns of this thread are for the two (three?) of you to actually do it...not talk about doing it...not make a single post that does it...but actually decide you're going to discuss architecture on here instead of acting like a raving lunatic...are you a raving lunatic?

That post 425 looks to me like an olive branch after the massacre is over...in case you were curious what I think...

[John_Conley]

When will the offenders either grow up or get the hell out of here?

Yes, I'm pissed...it makes the whole group look foolish. I understand I can skip over the crap, but outsiders looking in aren't differentiating a few old people acting like children from the rest of the group that would rather they disappear. Industry people(archies, supers, construction folks) aren't going to contribute any more if this current MO of attacking and tomfoolery continues. I'm pretty sure the discussion group would be poorer for it.

If you suspect I'm referring to you...I probably am. I don't need to be specific here...there's too much crap to single out anyone.

Joe

 

Joe, I think one problem is that not everyone agrees on what is and isn't acceptable.  Despite protests over decorum, there have always been an army responding in a chorus of what a great guy someone is.  A free pass.

[Andrew Mitchell]

If you guys want to see the type of thing I think can help resolve some of the issues you're talking about on this thread check out Post #425 on the "Is Charles Blair Macdonald Really the Father of American Architecture?" thread (another thread that certainly did become distinctly of the personal attack variety) and tell me what you think. I'm going to be so interested to see what the response will be and where it might lead (hopefully something that can finally be beneficial and productive).

"Please sir please sir it wasn't me, it wasn't my fault"

As Joe said in his opening post, you should all grow up or get out.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I always feel badly when I even hint at a thrashing of some one....to the point where I remember most of the subtle and not so subtle put downs I have typed out here.

So going back in time, I apoligize for comparing some early poster to a Nazi, telling Pat Mucci that "I can explain it to you, but can't understand it for you", criticizing Tom MacWood for his historical contributions, calling Tommy Naccarrato a "stubby electrician" and calling Tom Paul's wife "Ms. Fishsticks".......

I actually kind of liked the sequences where TEP and I used Kings English and the utmost in old time decorum in our posts, somewhere in one of the Merion threads...oh that reminds me, I aplogize for participating in the Merion threads.

If I have offended any of the others here without my knowledge, I apologize for that, as well.

[Joel Zuckerman]

After having read (often skimmed) many of these vitriolic diatribes over the last year or so, here's my simple question:  Where on earth do all of you Hatfields and McCoys get the time to write these long, long, incredibly long-winded character assassinations of each other?  Isn't there work to be done, golf to be played, books to be read..even sock drawers to be rearranged?

[Eric Smith]

After having read (often skimmed) many of these vitriolic diatribes over the last year or so, here's my simple question:  Where on earth do all of you Hatfields and McCoys get the time to write these long, long, incredibly long-winded character assassinations of each other?  Isn't there work to be done, golf to be played, books to be read..even sock drawers to be rearranged?

Good one JZ! 

Teach 'em to use Twitter and keep it to 140 characters.

[Dan Herrmann]

What I love about GCA.com is that a thread like this exists (thanks, Joe).  There are SOOOOO many sites out there that'd make the M* threads look like a tea party.

Gentlemenly actions need to dominate here.  GCA.com should be a virtual golf course.

[Bill_McBride]

I think the model of decorum is probably the grill room at your club.   There is a lot said on this site than one would never say to another face to face.

[Dan Herrmann]

Bill - thanks.   You said it much better than I.

[DMoriarty]

I agree with much of what is written here and am not proud of my involvement in any of it, nor do I enjoy it or want it to continue.

But this is more than just reciprocal bad behavior.  Maybe I am mistaken, but there seems to be a misconception or intentional obliviousness about the nature and cause of these breakdowns, and a silent refusal of the general populace of the website to directly address and deal with what are some very obvious and recurring problems.   This leads me to ask a simple question, but one in which I am at a loss to answer:  Just what should I do? 

While many of you have my respect, might I suggest that it is a bit too easy for you to cast scorn from the sidelines and pretend that everyone is equally at fault in these breakdowns?   Your views might change if TEPaul ever decided to make you his "own personal project."   

[Scott Warren]

Mr Moriarty,

Why is it up to the rest of the membership to address it? It's very easy. Just ignore him and cease participation in the thread in question.

I know a member of this site who got an abusive email from another member. You know what he did? Two paragraphs in, he stopped reading, deleted it and didn't participate further in the thread that instigated it. Simple, effective and remarkably grown up of him.

[mike_malone]

 Dave,

   It takes 2 to tango-----don't respond to anything that is not germaine to the topic. People on the site , generally, are very good at making judgments about the participants. We can see what is written and decide rather easily what is offensive.

   It is just disappointing for us architectural junkies to have to wade through so many personal attacks when all we want to know is who designed Merion, was CBM the main guy in U.S. early architecture , or what was the early evolution of NGLA bunkering.

   It is a sad day when I don't want to read the postings of the most ardent researchers on this site!

[TEPaul]

“Just what should I do?”


My suggestion for what you should do is to stop writing things like this on this DG;

“Your views might change if TEPaul ever decided to make you his "own personal project."  

My next suggestion for what you should do is to go back to the “Was Charles Blair Macdonald Really the Father of American Golf Course Architecture?” thread and reread and carefully reconsider my Post #425 and consider changing or deleting your response to it (Post #426). This is a website that discusses golf course architecture, its architects and history. I don’t believe we need some 25 year Middle East Style Peace Process to resolve past differences and arguments.

[mike_malone]

 Tom,

   You need to stop telling Dave what to do because it doesn't achieve the desired end.

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

What does then? Can you resolve this thing with him? Can anybody? Did you read Post #425? I think it's a helluva subject and apparently he did too. I think that's a pretty good first step to try to resolve things on here between us.

[Garland Bayley]

Mr Moriarty,

Why is it up to the rest of the membership to address it? It's very easy. Just ignore him and cease participation in the thread in question.

I know a member of this site who got an abusive email from another member. You know what he did? Two paragraphs in, he stopped reading, deleted it and didn't participate further in the thread that instigated it. Simple, effective and remarkably grown up of him.

Scott,

If you have something important to say on the website, and someone responds with personal attacks, misrepresentations, mistakes of fact, etc., then is it your position that you should stop contributing, and let the falsehoods stand as if they were the final word on that matter?

[Bryan Izatt]

I agree with much of what is written here and am not proud of my involvement in any of it, nor do I enjoy it or want it to continue.  So, just stop.  It takes two to tango.  One of you has to stop or it will continue.

But this is more than just reciprocal bad behavior.  Maybe I am mistaken, but there seems to be a misconception or intentional obliviousness about the nature and cause of these breakdowns, and a silent refusal of the general populace of the website to directly address and deal with what are some very obvious and recurring problems.   I don't think anybody but you and Tom care about who started it or who causes it to continue.  You will be forever frustrated if you want some explicit support from some number of people on here that it is Tom's fault and behaviour rather than yours.  There is nothing the general populace here can do about what you see as the recurring problems.  Ran could excommunicate you or Tom or both of you, but he's chosen not to do that and that is his prerogative, not ours.   This leads me to ask a simple question, but one in which I am at a loss to answer:  Just what should I do? 

Filter Tom's e-mail to you as junk.

Delete, unread, his IM's to you. 

Never respond to any of his posts.

Trust that the members of this site understand who is/are the cause(s) of the recurring problems.

While many of you have my respect, might I suggest that it is a bit too easy for you to cast scorn from the sidelines and pretend that everyone is equally at fault in these breakdowns?  There will never, ever be an accounting of the percentage fault of the respective parties in this dispute.  You need to give up trying to win the battle for the hearts and minds on the rest of us posters.  Your views might change if TEPaul ever decided to make you his "own personal project."   I have had a small taste of it, and it was not pleasant.  But, all you can do is ignore it.  It is a battle that no one can win.  

[Scott Warren]

Mr Moriarty,

Why is it up to the rest of the membership to address it? It's very easy. Just ignore him and cease participation in the thread in question.

I know a member of this site who got an abusive email from another member. You know what he did? Two paragraphs in, he stopped reading, deleted it and didn't participate further in the thread that instigated it. Simple, effective and remarkably grown up of him.

Scott,

If you have something important to say on the website, and someone responds with personal attacks, misrepresentations, mistakes of fact, etc., then is it your position that you should stop contributing, and let the falsehoods stand as if they were the final word on that matter?

No, politely bow out and explain why. There are potential flashpoints on this site every day, it's just that 1490 or so of the participants just get on with their lives when it's clear a reasonable discussion is no longer an option.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I always feel badly when I even hint at a thrashing of some one....to the point where I remember most of the subtle and not so subtle put downs I have typed out here.

So going back in time, I apoligize for comparing some early poster to a Nazi, telling Pat Mucci that "I can explain it to you, but can't understand it for you", criticizing Tom MacWood for his historical contributions, calling Tommy Naccarrato a "stubby electrician" and calling Tom Paul's wife "Ms. Fishsticks".......

I actually kind of liked the sequences where TEP and I used Kings English and the utmost in old time decorum in our posts, somewhere in one of the Merion threads...oh that reminds me, I aplogize for participating in the Merion threads.

If I have offended any of the others here without my knowledge, I apologize for that, as well.

Just sitting here thinking (between gawdawful upload times for some drawing files) that it would have been my Dad's 90th birthday today, and whether he would be proud of me, etc.  In that spirit, I offer apologies for things that should offend you, even if you didn't know it, like me posting under the influence and posting while sitting in my underwear and most likely scratching somewhere inappropriately......you guys deserve better than that!  I also apologize for all the things I said about you and erased before sending...... .  And oh yeah, I apologize for all the things I really thought about many of you without ever writing it down and erasing, the posts of yours I saved, thinking some day I would find a stinging rebuke that was appropriate, and all the times I thought about hunting you down like the dogs that you are, or showing up at your place with evil intentions, or playing golf with you and spiking your drink with ex lax, but didn't follow through.........you certainly deserve better than that. .  Lastly, I apologize for posting your names at the ASGCA meetings as "enemies of the state" or reporting you to the National Security Council under false pretenses........yeah, I really regret that and hope its a "no harm, no foul" situation there.

Okay, I think that's it.  I love you guys!

[Bryan Izatt]

Mayday:

What does then? Can you resolve this thing with him? Can anybody? Did you read Post #425? I think it's a helluva subject and apparently he did too. I think that's a pretty good first step to try to resolve things on here between us.

Perhaps it is not clear to you, Tom, that the two of you can not have a civil discourse for any length of time, so starting up another discussion on post #425 is a waste of time.  Only fools think that they can do the same thing, the same way and get a different result.  So, I'd suggest that:

you don't post in response to any of David's posts;

you don't e-mail him;

you don't IM him; or,

phone him.

[Bryan Izatt]

I always feel badly when I even hint at a thrashing of some one....to the point where I remember most of the subtle and not so subtle put downs I have typed out here.

So going back in time, I apoligize for comparing some early poster to a Nazi, telling Pat Mucci that "I can explain it to you, but can't understand it for you", criticizing Tom MacWood for his historical contributions, calling Tommy Naccarrato a "stubby electrician" and calling Tom Paul's wife "Ms. Fishsticks".......

I actually kind of liked the sequences where TEP and I used Kings English and the utmost in old time decorum in our posts, somewhere in one of the Merion threads...oh that reminds me, I aplogize for participating in the Merion threads.

If I have offended any of the others here without my knowledge, I apologize for that, as well.

Just sitting here thinking (between gawdawful upload times for some drawing files) that it would have been my Dad's 90th birthday today, and whether he would be proud of me, etc.  In that spirit, I offer apologies for things that should offend you, even if you didn't know it, like me posting under the influence and posting while sitting in my underwear and most likely scratching somewhere inappropriately......you guys deserve better than that!  I also apologize for all the things I said about you and erased before sending...... .  And oh yeah, I apologize for all the things I really thought about many of you without ever writing it down and erasing, the posts of yours I saved, thinking some day I would find a stinging rebuke that was appropriate, and all the times I thought about hunting you down like the dogs that you are, or showing up at your place with evil intentions, or playing golf with you and spiking your drink with ex lax, but didn't follow through.........you certainly deserve better than that. .  Lastly, I apologize for posting your names at the ASGCA meetings as "enemies of the state" or reporting you to the National Security Council under false pretenses........yeah, I really regret that and hope its a "no harm, no foul" situation there.

Okay, I think that's it.  I love you guys!

Classic.  I love you too, despite your obtuseness on the Merion thread.  You response above made my day, although don't you think the self-referential quotation is a bit arrogant?      Ooops, I apologize for that, in advance, if you take offense.

[Paul Thomas]

I always feel badly when I even hint at a thrashing of some one....to the point where I remember most of the subtle and not so subtle put downs I have typed out here.

So going back in time, I apoligize for comparing some early poster to a Nazi, telling Pat Mucci that "I can explain it to you, but can't understand it for you", criticizing Tom MacWood for his historical contributions, calling Tommy Naccarrato a "stubby electrician" and calling Tom Paul's wife "Ms. Fishsticks".......

I actually kind of liked the sequences where TEP and I used Kings English and the utmost in old time decorum in our posts, somewhere in one of the Merion threads...oh that reminds me, I aplogize for participating in the Merion threads.

If I have offended any of the others here without my knowledge, I apologize for that, as well.

Just sitting here thinking (between gawdawful upload times for some drawing files) that it would have been my Dad's 90th birthday today, and whether he would be proud of me, etc.  In that spirit, I offer apologies for things that should offend you, even if you didn't know it, like me posting under the influence and posting while sitting in my underwear and most likely scratching somewhere inappropriately......you guys deserve better than that!  I also apologize for all the things I said about you and erased before sending...... .  And oh yeah, I apologize for all the things I really thought about many of you without ever writing it down and erasing, the posts of yours I saved, thinking some day I would find a stinging rebuke that was appropriate, and all the times I thought about hunting you down like the dogs that you are, or showing up at your place with evil intentions, or playing golf with you and spiking your drink with ex lax, but didn't follow through.........you certainly deserve better than that. .  Lastly, I apologize for posting your names at the ASGCA meetings as "enemies of the state" or reporting you to the National Security Council under false pretenses........yeah, I really regret that and hope its a "no harm, no foul" situation there.

Okay, I think that's it.  I love you guys!

note to self:  dont get on Jeff's bad side !

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Look Joe, I know you are talking about me, it was a compliment when I said you were the best transsexual shaper in the business. You need to ease up on the hormone treatments; you're a little touchy.

[Joe Hancock]

Look Joe, I know you are talking about me, it was a compliment when I said you were the best transsexual shaper in the business. You need to ease up on the hormone treatments; you're a little touchy.

That's entirely a fabrication; I've yet to shape a transsexual, either on or off a golf course! But, other than that, yeah, I was talking about you.....

 

[Garland Bayley]

Mr Moriarty,

Why is it up to the rest of the membership to address it? It's very easy. Just ignore him and cease participation in the thread in question.

I know a member of this site who got an abusive email from another member. You know what he did? Two paragraphs in, he stopped reading, deleted it and didn't participate further in the thread that instigated it. Simple, effective and remarkably grown up of him.

Scott,

If you have something important to say on the website, and someone responds with personal attacks, misrepresentations, mistakes of fact, etc., then is it your position that you should stop contributing, and let the falsehoods stand as if they were the final word on that matter?

No, politely bow out and explain why. There are potential flashpoints on this site every day, it's just that 1490 or so of the participants just get on with their lives when it's clear a reasonable discussion is no longer an option.

Scott,

It appears to me that you are saying that one poster can shut down the participation of another poster of his choosing at will. If one poster has an issue with another poster's comments, then all he need do is make an unwarranted, spurious attack, thereby causing the other poster to shut down on each and every thread he may wish to participate in.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Why not just send private messages rather than bore the rest of us with this nonsense about your respective interpretations of whatever ?

[TEPaul]

"Perhaps it is not clear to you, Tom, that the two of you can not have a civil discourse for any length of time, so starting up another discussion on post #425 is a waste of time.  Only fools think that they can do the same thing, the same way and get a different result."


Well, Bryan, that's a pretty discouraging commentary, but thanks anyway.  

[DMoriarty]

Mr Moriarty,

Why is it up to the rest of the membership to address it? It's very easy. Just ignore him and cease participation in the thread in question.

I know a member of this site who got an abusive email from another member. You know what he did? Two paragraphs in, he stopped reading, deleted it and didn't participate further in the thread that instigated it. Simple, effective and remarkably grown up of him.

Scott, please call me David.  Yours is seemingly sound advice, but easier said than done.  This sort of thing used to be limited to the Merion threads, but now seems to follow me to most of the threads I find interesting.   So asking me to ignore it and leave the threads is akin to asking me to leave the site.   I've done that on a few occasions for extended periods of time, but leaving because of TEPaul's abhorrent behavior hardly seems the best solution to me.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Dave,

   It takes 2 to tango-----don't respond to anything that is not germaine to the topic. People on the site , generally, are very good at making judgments about the participants. We can see what is written and decide rather easily what is offensive.

It does take two to tango, but it only takes one to walk all over another if allowed to do so. And that seems to be the direction things go when I ignore him.   These guys were still piling on their vitriol and misinformation even when I left the site.  

That being said, I do have a tendency to strike back when struck, and am relatively well equipped to do so.  I will try to ignore that which is not germaine to the topic, even if it is against my instinct.  

 

It is just disappointing for us architectural junkies to have to wade through so many personal attacks when all we want to know is who designed Merion, was CBM the main guy in U.S. early architecture , or what was the early evolution of NGLA bunkering.

I share your disappointment in the threads.  I feel like some of the best and most interesting contributions are buried under seemingly endless piles of crap, and I am ashamed to have had anything at all to do with amassing this crap.   In fact that is one of the reasons I wrote my IMO - so that I could let my views be heard without having it instantly buried under page after page of insult and misrepresentation, and so I could lay the groundwork for what I felt could be an interesting and relevant continuation of that conversation.  

That didn't go quite as I had hoped.  Since I posted my IMO the volume has increased and the vitriol intensified.  It seems that  everything I write about the history of gca is instantly buried in pages and pages of commentary, some nasty and most without any substance.  This hardly subsided even when I left the site for months.  

Part of the trouble is just the sheer volume that TEPaul generates when he gets going.  On the last three pages of Urbina's CBM thread, over fifty percent (50%) of the posts on the last three pages are his posts!   Once you get above 50% of the posts, some of the time he is just writing post after post without response from anyone.  And with the length of his posts it is impossible to wade through it.  TEPaul keeps harping on this post #425.  He had probably posted 100-150 times before #425t on that thread alone, but he expects us to ignore all of that because he finally posted something that thinks is reasonable?

It is very frustrating for me because I am really interested in this stuff and feel like if given the chance I have something to contribute to our knowledge of that and other issues.   But no one should be expected to dig through this garbage, either to read it or to post.

It is a sad day when I don't want to read the postings of the most ardent researchers on this site!

It is certainly a sad day for me when my substantive contributions are being overshadowed by this endless garbage and vitriol.
_______________________________________________________

Bryan,

I really don't care who started it, and I don't care about allotting percentages of blame.  I just want it to stop.   I've tried ignoring him in the past, and will try again, but in the past ignoring him has only encouraged him.

___________________________________

Bill McBride posted we should behave as we would in the Grill Room, and treat each other as if we were face to face.  I agree and have posted the same thing repeatedly in the past, and have communicated this to TEPaul for years.  TEPaul has told me (explicitly and repeatedly) that because of my opinions on certain architectural issues I do not deserve common courtesy or any courtesy whatsoever, and that I would be harassed and ridiculed until I was off the site.    So I question the effectiveness of the "face-to-face" guideline in this situation.

_____________________________


But sticking with the "grill room" analogy, I have a question for all of you who think "it takes two to tango."

Suppose this were the grill room, and suppose there was one belligerent guy at the bar who was constantly and repeatedly going after a few specific members because he didn't like their opinions on  the club's history.  Because of this, he was consantly threatening to run them out of the club, trying his to get them thrown out, telling them he was going to hassle them and harass them until the left, butting into and spoiling all their conversations with insults and long-winded diatribes about how awful they were, spreading malicious lies about them, telling them that they didn't even deserve the most basic common courtesy and showing them none, threatening others that if they supported these guys they were in for it as well, harassing them outside the club, etc.  
- What would you do?    
- Would you just look the other way, and pretend it wasn't happening?  
- Would you ridicule them all for making the grill room an uncomfortable place?  
- Would you encourage the targets to just ignore the guy and to leave whenever he was there, even though is always there?
- Would you laugh it off like one might a drunken uncle at family reunion?
- Would you just look away and pretend that everything was fine?
- Would you blame the targets if they stood up to the guy?  
- If they stood up to him and wanted it to stop, would you tell them that it takes two to tango?  


What would you do if someone in your club and/or grill room constantly behaved like TEPaul has behaved on this website for years?

I have been in the position of the bystander in these situations, both on this board and off, so I know what I would do.  But I am curious as to what you would do?

[TEPaul]

Scott, Bryan and Joe H:


Are you guys sure you really want to have a thread that ostensibly is to stop "character assasination and other BS" on this website but yet seems to be providing just another forum for a post like #32? 

You guys should check out post #425 on the CBM, the father of American architecture? thread. At least that one is an attempt to resolve something and to stop this BS.

[Bill_McBride]

Does anyone else find it ironic and amusing that Tom and David are co-opting this thread on "Character assassination and other BS?"