News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« on: November 18, 2009, 04:56:49 PM »
I was thinking today just how much I enjoy The Addington and looking forward to a possible (weather permitting) look at Knole Park this Friday, and it struck me that JF Abercromby is one GCA whose entire portfolio I could realistically play - and I reckon it would be really interesting to do so, to see what flavours run through his work, what ideas I see repeated etc.

The hard bit is working out exactly what is I need to see to have played every "Abercromby" hole still in existance. I'm not looking for redesign work or holes/courses where he helped out Colt/Fowler etc, just the greenfield designs where he was the main man.

So far I have: The Addington, Coombe Hill, Knole Park, Worplesdon.

I understand he did Hilversum in 1910, but it has since been modified. How much of Aber remains?

Also, I saw he was credited in a "guess the hole" thread on here with East Brighton, but the club's website mnakes no mention of him? Does the course he designed NLE, or is the site just incomplete?

Is there anything else I am overlooking?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2009, 04:58:25 PM »
Bovey Castle, though it was quite extensively altered by Mackenzie and Ebert a few years back.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2009, 05:02:10 PM »
it struck me that JF Abercromby is one GCA whose entire portfolio I could realistically play - and I reckon it would be really interesting to do so, to see what flavours run through his work, what ideas I see repeated etc.

I thought the same thing about Abercromby.  But then missed out on the Addington this trip (no morning times).  I do like the idea of checking out the entire portfolio.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2009, 05:03:25 PM »
Thanks Adam (and John, there's always next September...).

I just found an old post by Wayne Morrison also listing: Liphook, Mill Hill, West Kent, Golf de Chantilly, Haagsche.

Can anyone share any info on which ones remain faithful to Aber's initial creation?

Mill Hill's website names Aber as the designer.

West Kent and Cowdray have no history section on their pages, and Chantilly refers to Simpson.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 05:18:31 PM by Scott Warren »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2009, 05:46:36 PM »
Coombe Hill, I haven’t seen it but Philip G and Richard P have both posted pictures on here.  Ken Brown recently redid the bunkers.


You might also do some archaeology.  Google earth shows what looks like some playing corridors of 'his masterpiece' The Addington New, NLE.  The Simpson and Wethered book has some hole sketches and Darwin wrote quite a bit about it. Some serious research on this would be interesting.  Richard P might be able to put you in touch with the Old Secretary who knew the old lady owner well.

Good luck, seems like a fine project to me.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2009, 05:49:54 PM »
Thanks Tony, the more I think about it, the more I want to do it - rather than just trying to play as many Top 100 courses as I can or whatever. A man needs a project, they say, to keep idle hands busy.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2009, 06:01:09 PM »
Scott the frist half of my post went missing, here goes.




Scott the Addington (old) had input from Colt but no one can say how much.

I hope you do get to Knole and if so can you please post a picture of the par 3 green with the most amazing spine running longitudinally along it.  It's after the turn.  Similarities with the Addington? All I can comment on is the use of some extreme land; I'd welcome your view.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2009, 07:31:47 PM »
Worplesdon, Coombe Hill, The Addington, Knole Park, Bovey Castle, Mill Hill. Another one, the New Course at The Addington, is lost.

That's it for Aber as a solo architect. He worked on other courses, but AFAIK there is no way saying what he did and what was the work of Fowler or Simpson.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2009, 07:34:21 PM »
Cool, so those six are his only actual solo/lead designs?

Bovey Castle is really the only one that will take some getting to.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2009, 08:48:45 PM »
Abercromby designed the first nine at Hilversum and Colt later added a second nine. I'm not sure what left of either.

Cowdray Park is Fowler & Simpson. East Brighton was an Abercromby redesign in the early 20s. Liphook is normally associated with Croome, but its possible Abercromby assisted him, Croome assisted Abercromby at Addington-New around the same time. Addington-New was considered by many Abercromby's masterpiece.

The Hague course I believe is NLE. From what I've seen and read that course looked to be very interesting. Chantilly is a mystery to me. I've seen Taylor, Colt, Simpson and Abercromby's names associated with it.

West Kent is another course I've seen attributed to JFA, but that may be another Fowler & Simpson. Is West Byfleet an Abercromby? I wonder if he did more courses on the Continent than we know about. 

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2009, 09:08:01 PM »
Here's the thread on the 1911 Le Figaro article mentioning Colt's involvement at Chantilly:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38360.0/

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2009, 09:02:06 AM »
Coombe Hill, I haven’t seen it but Philip G and Richard P have both posted pictures on here.  Ken Brown recently redid the bunkers.


Wrong Ken, Tony - Moodie, not Brown.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2009, 10:16:30 AM »
Thanks for the help guys. I've spent some time today looking into the borderline inlcusions.

The only one I am torn on including is West Kent. Is it listed as Fowler/Abercromby.

Of the others, Liphook lists itself as Croome, followed by alterations by Simpson when he was the LGC "Master of the Green", Hilversum's site says the original 9 was designed by H. Burrows, before Colt added another 9 and altered what was there, and East Brighton says it's a Braid course first and foremost, with no mention of Aber.

So that leaves the six listed above. Knole Park tomorrow if the rain stays away...

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2009, 10:30:54 AM »
Scott,

I played Bovey Castle in October.  You'd have to really want to "do" Abercromby to make the trip just to play it.  It isn't a bad course but I'd say it was a 3, maybe a 4 at a push on the "Doak" scale.  Decent front 9 (though I may be biased as I shot 33 on the front 9 in the competition we played, the only time in my life I've played a front or back nine under par) but very ordinary back 9.  No idea how much Abercromby is left but I suspect what is left is mostly in that front 9.  Nice hotel, though.

Mark
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2009, 10:47:18 AM »
Thanks Mark. I had a look at the hotel and it looked great, but you're right: sitting here in London it's a bloody long way to go to play a 3 or 4.

Something tells me I need to do enough research on Bovey Castle to discover most of Aber's work is gone, rendering the trip unnecessary! ;)

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2009, 10:48:39 AM »
Scott,

sounds like a GCA event!  8)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2009, 11:03:45 AM »
I too would like to know more about Abercromby's courses. He is overlooked these days, but in the 20's he was considered on a par with the best of the era. In Field magazine's 1925/6 survey (by Ambrose) of great inland holes, several by Abercromby showed up.

On a trip to England last spring I passed on The Addington largely because the New is NLE and the Old was under repair at the time. How good is the Old? How much Abercromby is still there? As you guys know, back in the day the New was more highly thought of. Its loss in WWII was a significant one.

Bob   

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2009, 11:07:10 AM »
Bob,

The Addington is all Aber as best I know. I have read a fair bit about it and have never seen another architect named.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2009, 11:18:15 AM »
Here are a couple of blurbs from The Times on Hilverum.

"Originally there were nine holes of which Mr. Abercrombie was largely responsible; now another nine holes have been added by Mr. Colt, so that the golfer is confronted with delightful blend of subtlety and boldness that recalls the most pleasing features of New Addington and Swinley Forest. Again the course has been cut out of the wood, the fairways stretching down long aisles, where pine trees predominate, but where there is not quite so much restriction as The Hague."  ~~ 7/17/1929

"Hilversum, like the Hague, is cut out of pines, oaks, and birches, but it is not so circumscribed. Like the Hague it is on the short side in actual yardage, being just under 6000 yards, but it plays longer by comparison and its scratch score, also of 74, is even harder to accomplish. As with all Dutch courses it abounds in the most beautiful natural features which obviate an excess of made bunkers, allowing the architect to ensure such as do exist being dominating in character. There are two distinct loops of nine holes, the older made by Mr. Abercrombie, the newer the work of Mr. Colt. Together they make 18 of the most interesting testing and subtle holes imaginable, where the thinking and accurate golfer is 'in clover,' although he will look in vain for it on the new part, which is the freehold property of the club. On this part the greens and fairways are undoubtedly the best of any links course in the Netherlands, and one doubts if there is finer turf, so free of weed, so admirably uniform in texture anywhere."  ~~ 8/4/1931
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 01:10:51 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2009, 11:22:18 AM »
Addington Old was done with Colt. Worplesdon and Coombe Hill I believe were both done with Willie Park-Jr.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2009, 11:23:03 AM »
BCrosby,

One of the "Gourmet's Choice" in the Confidential Guide.  Certainly a must play I would think when in London....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2009, 11:30:06 AM »
I've read it somewhere, but I'm skeptical that the New at Addington was really better than the Old.  I'm not entirely sure but I don't think the site had the ravines that the Old does.

West Kent (Downe) is a Colt and the only course of his where the routing is a bit of a head scratcher.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio New
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2009, 11:33:27 AM »
Addington Old was done with Colt.

Tommy Mac

Do you have any evidence of this?  I can recall someone posting words of Darwin to the effect that Burnham's 17th was an Alison design when it is quite clearly not the case. Alison may well well have overseen construction, but to Colt's plans.  I guess my point is you can't always trust what these big whigs wrote - especially when the subject is vague.  Anyway - do you have evidence that Colt designed 9 holes at Addington?  This would be a most remarkable turn of events.

Paul

I too am skeptical about the New being better than the Old.  Is it possible that the Old only had 9 holes when the New was built?

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 26, 2023, 04:03:54 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2009, 11:35:40 AM »
West Kent (Downe) is a Colt and the only course of his where the routing is a bit of a head scratcher.

Really? All the attributions I saw said Fowler/Aber. I trust your word, mind, just wondered where you got it from?

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2009, 11:52:26 AM »
Scott if the weather is bad tomo it's not a disaster as Knole is so local. I've always liked Mill Hill even though it's tucked between a motorway and a highway. Not a peaceful experience, think Walton Heath on steriods for noise!!

I think Crump is the only designer whose entire portfolio of courses I've played.
Cave Nil Vino