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Melvyn Morrow

I am constantly being accused of many things, in particular my never ending campaign on carts and worst still their roads/tracks that invade our courses like a giant snake curling its way over the landscape destroying the natural composure of the course for miles ahead.

The option I suppose is to hide them, then the designers have the problem of them being just too far for the comfort of those on carts. Alternatively, they mirror the rough in full view upsetting the Walkers and the track surface may come into play for the odd wayward ball, not to mention the distraction, which is my pet hate.

I therefore presume that cart tracks have a major affect on the design process, so would any designer like to give examples (without naming the course) of their problems in trying to balance the equation.  I would of course prefer to have a GB&I example but for the board perhaps a couple of alternatives could give the wider picture.

On final part of the cart track question; do you, the designers in your opinion enjoy including cart tracks into your design or are they just a modern pain. In addition, do you feel in anyway that they diminish or whittle away at your design intent? 

My question is based upon my belief that cart tracks are a serious problem from design to the final product and beyond. Thus being or introduce a major part of the design element, therefore a serious and legitimate point of discussion on this board. They may even be defined in some cases as the proverbial straw that broke the camels back when trying to finish off a design

Melvyn

« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 07:48:40 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

John Mayhugh

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2009, 08:09:14 AM »
I'm not an architect, but I doubt many would argue that cart paths have no impact on design.  I also doubt that you will find many people that prefer the aesthetics of cart paths to a more natural landscape.

However, in the United States the use of golf carts is simply a part of the game.  If we had been required to walk, I might never have played my first round of golf.  If there were no golf carts, I know of a number of people that would not play the game.  Would golf be better off without them?  I walk around 80% of the rounds that I play and prefer to walk.  However, in the months of July & August, walking in Kentucky is not very comfortable and I will often ride.  I know people that always ride, yet that does not affect my enjoyment of the game at all.

I'm curious - which courses have you played where cart paths interfered with your enjoyment of the round?

Mike Sweeney

Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2009, 08:26:04 AM »
Mel,

To me this is like asking how do I build a skyscraper without elevator shafts? You need a way to get people, machines and equipment around a course in the modern era. The outing business alone is a huge piece of many courses and clubs business.

In some cases, it goes beyond business. At Mountain Lake on Sunday mornings, there is always a shotgun start at 9:00 AM. It is a very social place, so members and guest tee off at 9 AM, play, have lunch and then watch football at 1:00PM. Some of us have driven the cart out to say the 9th hole, walk the course and then drive back for the lunch buffet.

Sure there are a few clubs that can support only having golfers tee off on #1 and walk all 18 holes, but many would die if you imposed your beliefs on the courses and clubs.

Bill_McBride

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2009, 08:31:02 AM »
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« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 08:35:48 AM by Bill_McBride »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2009, 08:32:42 AM »
Melvyn,

Great topic.  You are absolutely correct in PP2 about the "handy" vs. "hidden" debate, and in pp3 that they have a major impact on design. I once started a gca class I was giving at the Turf show what was the first thing I designed, and then shocked the participants by saying it was the cart path.  While that is not absolutely true, the fact is that its such a major part of the circulation of a golf hole that it must be considered if not first, then concurrently with the design of the hole.  

Simplistically speaking, we need a few hundred feet of open area in a few spots along the fw and near the green for path to hole access.  It isn't wise on a high play/high cart useage course to block those access routes with bunkers or mounds. doing so introduces a lot of "cow paths" with wear and tear and compaction.  So, yes, there is an impact.

That said, I feel that it is just one more thing to work into the design, with environmental issues, etc.  Since I have never had the opportunity to design a course with no paths (installed or planned for the near future) I just don't look at it as you do.  Maybe that is sad, but for me, its a fact of life and that horse is out of the barn.  As to visual distraction, I think if the path fits the landscape well it can look like a country road in a pastoral landscape.  That isn't nearly as a big a negative to me as power lines, houses, warehouses, etc. that also clutter up the view on a typical gof course.

In some ways, I actually do enjoy designing the path.  Taken as its own design problem of providing ease of circulation, using them as drainage cut offs, hiding or making attractive with flowing curves that match the landscape, etc., it is a fascinating sub problem in design.  While there are many ways to design a good strategic hole, its pretty much a given that human nature inevitably makes people drive the shortest line to where they are going.

Has it ever stopped me from placing a bunker exactly where I wanted it?  Sure.  Have paths ever been the straw that broke the camel's back?  I don't think so.  Just because bunker can't be placed at "X" on a particular hole doesn't mean that there are no other ways to design a good hole with bunkers elsewhere, nor does it impact every hole.  If a designer was so inflexible as to not be able to consider multiple options of design they wouldn't be much of a designer anyway.  Good design is really the result of a trial and error process of floating a few ideas, refining the best ones all things considered, and then refining some more.   You just can't throw up your hands when any condition - nature, cart paths, enviro regs, owner's needs, etc.,  prevent you from designing one particular pet idea.

As John hints, in 40 years of golf, I can count only a few times where I have seen a ball hit a path and affect play, albeit, one of them was the last time a played.  So, it does happen, but when you consider 30,000 uses of a cart path in a given year vs perhaps 30 or even 300 (about 1 a day) negative instances of a ball deflecting badly off them, the cost value ratio to a golf course owner is pretty high.

Anyway, that is my $0.02.  Your posts advocating going back to the strong traditions of golf have had me wondering lately about the whole concept of just how much golf should change with the times.  I guess it has no more immunity from change as the rest of the world's activities and situations, does it?  On the other hand, I can see the appeal of playing it old school.  While you might not like it, I see the most likely outcome as some golf operator sponsoring "throwback day" for special occaisions (complete with walking, no GPS, rangers in knickers, etc. ) in effort to create some marketing buzz, vs a wholesale return to walking.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2009, 08:48:48 AM »
Kelly,

Interesting points on how mch work goes into the perfect path!  There is a science to everything, including cart path design and most of us gca types don't have the luxury of seeing where traffic wll go for a year and then addng the path or modifying it as you describe.

I study it all the time. I know that if the path is more than 60 feet from the green at the main entry point, golfers will simply drive inside the ropes or curb.  They prefer 45-50 feet of a maximum walk, so where entry is at the back of the green, I place paths that far away.  (many would place them as close as 25" from the green, but that just feels too "in play" to me. At tees, paths 25 feet or less from the tee seem to work best.

I know that if the path juts in to one close point, it concentrates traffic too much. I know that even a six inch rise or bump in the main walkway will cause wear paths on either side, so I flatten out the normal walk up areas.  I know that its better to drain the green away rather than towards the cart path.....

In the old days, we used to worry about the approach design. Now we worry about that a little, and worry about the cart path circulation a lot.

I have told the story of co-designing a never built course with John Fought, which was great fun.  As we stood on a potential green site with the next tee right behind it, he suggested having nobunker on the direct line to the back tee to facilitate walking, but had one between path and green, which I recommended against.  We had a good laugh, and joked that we just couldn't put bunkers anywhere or they might block someone's walking or cart circulation.  Funny, but somewhat true.

I now plot the cart path and walking exit from each green before deciding on bunker placements.  Of course, I know that exiting to the cart path is preferred at a ratio of at least 2:1.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2009, 02:40:02 PM »
Melvyn:

Cart paths are such an obstacle for a designer that I have a standing offer to reduce my design fee by $50,000 for any project where the client will commit to a walking-only golf course.  They are that much of a nuisance to figure out, and sometimes they cause you not to build the best possible golf hole because there is no good place to put the cart path if you locate the green in a certain spot.  (Pacific Dunes would have to have a couple of holes redesigned to accommodate a real cart path that wasn't terribly ugly.)

I'll bet even Old Tom Morris did not cut his fee by $50,000 to stand on principle!  ;)

Eric Smith

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2009, 02:47:29 PM »
The outing business alone is a huge piece of many courses and clubs business.

In some cases, it goes beyond business. At Mountain Lake on Sunday mornings, there is always a shotgun start at 9:00 AM. It is a very social place, so members and guest tee off at 9 AM, play, have lunch and then watch football at 1:00PM. Some of us have driven the cart out to say the 9th hole, walk the course and then drive back for the lunch buffet.

Sure there are a few clubs that can support only having golfers tee off on #1 and walk all 18 holes, but many would die if you imposed your beliefs on the courses and clubs.

This made me wonder, does Bandon Dunes do large golf outings?  Do they ever shotgun start the players, shuttling them to tees?

Tom_Doak

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2009, 02:53:55 PM »

I think the one "item" on a golf course that has a more adverse affect on designing is the preceived need by some to have returning nines. Routing returning nines ruins more golf courses than cart paths is my bet.

I agree with that.  Having to make the ninth hole return to the clubhouse eliminates 75-90% of the potential solutions to the puzzle.

Norbert P

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2009, 03:41:49 PM »
. . .

Cart paths are such an obstacle for a designer that I have a standing offer to reduce my design fee by $50,000 for any project where the client will commit to a walking-only golf course.  . . .

  Tom, has it worked?   Very interesting marketing technique. It definitely sends out a clear message about your prefering work of designing for walking.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Rory Connaughton

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2009, 03:55:43 PM »
Jeff, Kelly and Tom,

  Thanks for your posts.  Very informative.

Jeff and Kelly, I am curious as to just how extensive the cart path networks tend to be on your courses? Do they tend to be short spurs between greens and tees? do they extend the entire length of a given hole?  I have seen photos of Lederach on this site but do not recall seeing any cart paths. I assume, however that cart use is prevalent.

I suspect that Melvyn overestimates the prevalence of paths in the US though I may just as easily underestimate their prevalence (understanding that almost all courses have haul roads and dirt, rock or asphalt spurs in some locations).

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2009, 04:28:31 PM »
Rory,

I have never had a course designed with no or partial paths NOT add them within about one year.  And, when clubs do it in house, without someone like me or Kelly supervising it often gets done very, very (insert your own number of "very's" here) badly.  I have seen paths run inside fw bunkers, down the middle of the fw, and all sorts of other configurations I couldn't even begin to imagine my ownself......

So, like it or not, we design the entire path, even if it may not get built right away, in hopes that they build it that way.  There are some real liability issues for cart paths for gca's and some won't do them, leaving it to the owner or an engineer.  It depends on your insurance carrier.  I have heard TD offer that $50K discount before. I don't doubt it, but I think what he's not telling you is that this is what he would save on his errors and omissions policy by not designing cart paths........
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2009, 04:47:15 PM »
Slag:

I've done several walking-only courses, but only one where my offer helped them make the decision to go that way -- Wicked Pony in Oregon, which still lies half-finished.

Jeff:

My E & O policy is not 50k per year ... and when we do have to deal with cart paths, we just make suggestions to the engineers, we don't lay them out.  The hassle factor is responsible for my offer; that, and I'm a true believer in walking.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2009, 05:07:46 PM »
Thanks and so far very interesting. Great set of comments.

My own experience in design (not course design) makes me feel certain that paths must have to be taken into account in the early stages.  Nevertheless, they must be an unwelcome distraction and have repercussions on the design input if the client wants them on the course rather than hidden. I would accept the argument if the carts were just available for mobility be it for the older or disabled player (thus greatly reducing traffic, minimising wear and tear). Given the choice, I would always want hidden tracks, but again fully understand the argument that they effectively become semi pointless if you have to walk any distance to and from the cart.

So cart tracks are really part of GCA and so actually relevant, actually very relevant when discussing architecture on this site.

Jeff my opinion re carts (and for that matter distance aids) has very little to do with bygone days or my preferences for the purity or traditional golf. I feel it goes deeper into the character of the golfer and is the essence of the game itself, be in the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th or 21st Century. Riding and using aids greatly detracts and diminishes the player involvement & achievements as he/she uses outside assistance to complete his/her game. Nevertheless, it is clear that carts/carts tracks do form part of the design process and therefore are valid subjects to discuss on sites like GCA.com. The amount of exposure is subject to how important member(s) feel about the subject. In addition, can you give an idea in percentages of what the overall cost would be when tracks are included for the carts, 1, 2, 5 or 10% of the courses budget? Are numbers in the region of 200 carts normal and what about overnight security accommodation for carts?

Thanks all so far for taking the time to read and comment.

Melvyn

PS Tom if Old Tom gave a discount of $50,000 per course (known course so far approx 100 although seen old reports of circa 120-125 so some more still to find) I expect I would be a rich man even today. Alas, the taxman took the last of it years ago including the Prestwick land, think someone built a course on part of it. 

PPS Might start a topic on the overpayment of fees to designers remembering Old Tom charged £1 per day. Actually, it seems if you are to include a cart track you modern guys should follow his lead – in fact, £1 per day would appear excessive IMHO if you include a track. Why should a client pay for his beautiful course to be ruined by including cart tracks, boy have you architects destroyed some good courses.  ;) That's a joke.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 05:15:33 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Mac Plumart

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2009, 05:12:27 PM »
Guys...I've played a couple of course that have hard packed sand for cart paths on many holes.  Those "paths" were played like waste bunkers and looked very natural.  Is this feasible for other sites?  If so, I think it would be an improvement.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Rory Connaughton

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2009, 05:18:02 PM »
Mac:

  I suspect that topography has a lot to do with it.  At my course there were some short paths that consisted of wood chips. Due to some reasonable elevations changes, they constantly washed out.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2009, 05:23:02 PM »
Tom,

I should have added smileys..... :)


Melvyn,

Cart paths cost at least $500K, probably closer to $600K for a full system now....
Cart Barn about $150K, Carts are typically about 75 in number at $2700 per, but often leased.

So, if the total cost for cart is close to $1M bucks out of perhaps about $7-9M minimum total construction cost.  At $85 per 1000, annual debt payment runs about $80K per year, while 30,000 cart rentals at $8-10 equals $240-300K in revenue.  Very little pays back more than carts, unfortunately.  Hey, there is one thing that stays fairly constant over the ages....sooner or later, it all comes down to money.

As to personal character of golfers, I have often opined that another human constant is to seek creature comforts.  In that way, golf reflects our times and the old days equally well.  Back when invasions and famines were the norm, golf was tougher, yes, but life was tougher. I believe that as life has gotten easier, the game has too, and that is the most perfectly natural thing in the world.  Not many folks want their recreation to be harder than their real life, mountain climbers aside.  Thus, as we go to desk jobs, and computers and TV do our thinking for us, we don't want to be so "involved" in golf as perhaps our counterparts were.

I understand the sentiments, but IMHO, the train has left the station and is going only one way down the tracks.  And, we give soething to get something - carts allow more folks to play, at the expense of reduced fitness benefits.  They allow courses to be built in hillier areas at the expense of riding, and so forth. Its not all "lost".
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Melvyn Morrow

Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2009, 05:34:14 PM »


Jeff

I am thankful for the little old out of the way courses that can still offer me the fun and enjoyment away from the modern madness. Little gems like TOC (no carts) and a few even more remote than St Andrews like Askernish and to think they did the whole course for a little over the price of Tom’s discount. See what can be done if the will is there, but looks like Will has gone hope and not in much demand these days. ;D

I do take you point. :'(

Melvyn


Roger Wolfe

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2009, 05:34:35 PM »
Before we continue to bash cart paths remember the signficiant role they play in golf course maintenance.  With the current expectation regarding conditions, some level of hard surface path is necessary so utility vehicles hauling crew members, greens mowers and other items can get to the holes.  It is normal for fairways and roughs to get a little wild during prolonged periods of rain, but most golfers have come to expect groomed bunkers, mowed greens and other amenities rain or shine.


I am constantly being accused of many things, in particular my never ending campaign on carts and worst still their roads/tracks that invade our courses like a giant snake curling its way over the landscape destroying the natural composure of the course for miles ahead.

The option I suppose is to hide them, then the designers have the problem of them being just too far for the comfort of those on carts. Alternatively, they mirror the rough in full view upsetting the Walkers and the track surface may come into play for the odd wayward ball, not to mention the distraction, which is my pet hate.

I therefore presume that cart tracks have a major affect on the design process, so would any designer like to give examples (without naming the course) of their problems in trying to balance the equation.  I would of course prefer to have a GB&I example but for the board perhaps a couple of alternatives could give the wider picture.

On final part of the cart track question; do you, the designers in your opinion enjoy including cart tracks into your design or are they just a modern pain. In addition, do you feel in anyway that they diminish or whittle away at your design intent? 

My question is based upon my belief that cart tracks are a serious problem from design to the final product and beyond. Thus being or introduce a major part of the design element, therefore a serious and legitimate point of discussion on this board. They may even be defined in some cases as the proverbial straw that broke the camels back when trying to finish off a design

Melvyn



Melvyn Morrow

Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2009, 05:38:31 PM »
Rodger

Tell me how did the old Green Keepers manage before the invention of the cart, difficult one that I suppose. ;)

I know but I think modern man expects just too much, anyway I thought they wanted to play golf not change it for their comfort

Melvyn


Roger Wolfe

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2009, 05:56:02 PM »
Bless their hearts, I have no idea how they pulled it off.  However, I do know expectations were much, much lower.  My favorite carts paths are the ones at old school clubs like Columbia Country Club and The Palmetto Club.  Sandy, worn down tracks beaten down over decades of play.  No asphalt... just good, old fashioned sand and dirt.  If only everyone could enjoy that kind of soil.  Its wonderful.

Rodger

Tell me how did the old Green Keepers manage before the invention of the cart, difficult one that I suppose. ;)

I know but I think modern man expects just too much, anyway I thought they wanted to play golf not change it for their comfort

Melvyn



Mac Plumart

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2009, 06:04:20 PM »
Roger...that is what I am talking about.  Those carts path are very nice and pleasing to the eye...no?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2009, 06:29:11 PM »
With the current expectation regarding conditions, some level of hard surface path is necessary so utility vehicles hauling crew members, greens mowers and other items can get to the holes.  It is normal for fairways and roughs to get a little wild during prolonged periods of rain, but most golfers have come to expect groomed bunkers, mowed greens and other amenities rain or shine.


Roger:

There you go.  Another reason for the prevalence of cart paths is superintendents insisting their crews can't WALK anywhere, so there will be a lot of maintenance traffic.  Which of course has added significantly to the cost of maintenance.

"The current expectation regarding conditions" is precisely what the market is telling us has to be changed.

Bill_McBride

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2009, 09:24:45 AM »

Melvyn,

Cart paths cost at least $500K, probably closer to $600K for a full system now....
Cart Barn about $150K, Carts are typically about 75 in number at $2700 per, but often leased.

So, if the total cost for cart is close to $1M bucks out of perhaps about $7-9M minimum total construction cost.  At $85 per 1000, annual debt payment runs about $80K per year, while 30,000 cart rentals at $8-10 equals $240-300K in revenue.  Very little pays back more than carts, unfortunately.  Hey, there is one thing that stays fairly constant over the ages....sooner or later, it all comes down to money.

As to personal character of golfers, I have often opined that another human constant is to seek creature comforts.  In that way, golf reflects our times and the old days equally well.  Back when invasions and famines were the norm, golf was tougher, yes, but life was tougher. I believe that as life has gotten easier, the game has too, and that is the most perfectly natural thing in the world.  Not many folks want their recreation to be harder than their real life, mountain climbers aside.  Thus, as we go to desk jobs, and computers and TV do our thinking for us, we don't want to be so "involved" in golf as perhaps our counterparts were.

I understand the sentiments, but IMHO, the train has left the station and is going only one way down the tracks.  And, we give soething to get something - carts allow more folks to play, at the expense of reduced fitness benefits.  They allow courses to be built in hillier areas at the expense of riding, and so forth. Its not all "lost".

This hits the nail right on the head.  Great analysis of cost-benefit and why carts aren't likely to go away.  Those who play at clubs, public or private, where walking is part of the culture should be very happy about it.  There's nothing better to see than a foursome walking down the fairway, carrying or pushing their clubs.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: To answer my critics, are cart tracks a design problem for architects?
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2009, 09:32:00 AM »
Bill,

As Kelly points out, while you can get around a wet course without paths (maintenance or golfers) you probably wait until it dries out a little.  Another financial factor on carts is the ability to get golfers back on the course sooner after a rain.  So, add in perhaps a half day per week of greens and cart fees you don't lose to weather, or about 3-5000 rounds as part of the financial equation (at least presuming those riding golfers wouldn't just walk instead)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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