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Jud_T

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Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2009, 09:42:59 AM »
scott,

too much idle time on my hands apparently.... 8)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Lou_Duran

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Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2009, 11:29:39 AM »
Regarding the comparison on ANGC and Pinehurst #2:
It is much easier to reach the August greens in regulation. However, unless you can't find the optimum spot on the greens, the ANGC greens are much tougher to putt. On the otherhand, putting on the #2 greens is easier, but it is much tougher to get the approach shot to stay on the greens.
Jim

From the perspectives of an average player and a professional, which would you consider the better course?  And in terms of fun or enjoyment?

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2009, 03:08:12 PM »
Lou:

Tough question.  Augusta National is one of my favorite places on the planet, and I still get excited about attending the tournament every year. Many of my favorite memories in golf were there, and I have read just about all there is to read about the tournament and the place. Having said that, I must say that I think the course is a little overated. It is very good, and I would put it in the second, not the first, 10 courses I have played. I am not as bothered as most about the changes that have been made in the past 45 years, but I still think it has a few weaknesses that keep it out of the top 5, or so, where it is usually ranked. There are few courses that are more fun to play, and if you can keep the ball below the hole, you can actually shoot a decent score.

Count me as biased, but I think #2 is a better course, and is actually underrated by most. I look forward to some of the restoration that C&C will probably do. However, on most days the course will beat you up so much that it may not seem like fun. I consider it a test of character and patience as much as it is a test of golf skills. The player who can maintain his composure when he sees a "good" shot bounce off the green or a "good" chip roll off into a bunker, will have a good day.

Every round a ANGC is a thrill, no matter what you shoot. A bad day at #2 can be misery. I find nothing to be more satisfying than that rare good round on #2. You feel like you have been in a fight with a bear and won.


"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

G Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2009, 09:11:55 AM »
My main observations after playing ANGC were:

a) that driving is fun... Despite the comments above, I'd that the only scary drives for a decent driver of the ball would be 7 (back tees), 11 (back tees), 18 (back tees). Number 5 and 13 are great driving holes if you can hit a nice draw.

b) that the non-masters course isn't very tough (although since some of the extensions some holes have become hard simply due to length). Off the members tees it is surprisingly easy if you play well... However, once you get out of position it can become incredibly difficult. This allows the course to reward risk taking, while also presenting lots of challenges to be overcome when you do mess up.

c) Augusta has to be the best 'side of hill' course ever - despite the huge elevation change it feels a very comfortable routing. 

d) Many of the bunkers are so big, the fairways so wide, and with the lack of real rough creating a wide open feeling, playing Augusta can make you feel a little like you're playing a course designed for giants! A standard fairway bunker such as the ones on 5 or 18 are HUGE and completely dwarf anyone standing in them. I think this is something that many people don't fully appreciate until the go there, and it's certainly one of the things that makes the course so much fun to play.


Architecturally maybe not the greatest, but certainly the most awe inspiring to play.

Kenny Baer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2009, 10:50:26 AM »
Lou:

Tough question.  Augusta National is one of my favorite places on the planet, and I still get excited about attending the tournament every year. Many of my favorite memories in golf were there, and I have read just about all there is to read about the tournament and the place. Having said that, I must say that I think the course is a little overated. It is very good, and I would put it in the second, not the first, 10 courses I have played. I am not as bothered as most about the changes that have been made in the past 45 years, but I still think it has a few weaknesses that keep it out of the top 5, or so, where it is usually ranked. There are few courses that are more fun to play, and if you can keep the ball below the hole, you can actually shoot a decent score.

Count me as biased, but I think #2 is a better course, and is actually underrated by most. I look forward to some of the restoration that C&C will probably do. However, on most days the course will beat you up so much that it may not seem like fun. I consider it a test of character and patience as much as it is a test of golf skills. The player who can maintain his composure when he sees a "good" shot bounce off the green or a "good" chip roll off into a bunker, will have a good day.

Every round a ANGC is a thrill, no matter what you shoot. A bad day at #2 can be misery. I find nothing to be more satisfying than that rare good round on #2. You feel like you have been in a fight with a bear and won.




If you feel comfortable saying; what do you think those weaknesses are?  Do they have to do w/ the recent changes or are they just inherent to the layout?

Phil McDade

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Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2009, 11:28:05 AM »
I've played it.  Hardly anybody ever gets to play it.  You have to be really, really fortunate to know someone who can get you on.


The course itself is really fun to play. 


The shot values are amazing. 


You'll be faced with shots that you'll never see anywhere else in the world...


...



...



Oh wait, that's the Reverse Jans National...nevermind....

far fewer people have played it vs. Augusta!

Humbly submitted -- I believe it's five...(by the way, time is nearing ;D):

The most exclusive golf club in the world – the Honourable Company of Reverse Jans National golfers. From left to right, Dave Schmidt, Mike Kennedy, Mark Smolens, Eric Terhorst, and Phil McDade.


Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2009, 11:29:44 AM »
Man, what I wouldn't pay to see guys in jeans and camo pants playing at Augusta......

 :)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2009, 11:31:26 AM »
Joe,

Forget the camo pants...I want to know where I can get one of them purty sweaters Shivas is wearing.

That thing is Swweeeett!!!   ;D

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2009, 11:34:13 AM »
Joe,

Forget the camo pants...I want to know where I can get one of them purty sweaters Shivas is wearing.

That thing is Swweeeett!!!   ;D

There's a bunch more just like it in his wife's closet.....

 ;)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2009, 11:35:00 AM »
Joe,

Forget the camo pants...I want to know where I can get one of them purty sweaters Shivas is wearing.

That thing is Swweeeett!!!   ;D

There's a bunch more just like it in his wife's closet.....

 ;)

Hmmm...not sure if I'm gonna touch that one and how you would know!!   ::)  ::)  ;D

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2009, 02:52:39 PM »
Kenny:

I have not ignored your question, but I have been reluctant to get into a debate with anyone regarding my perception of some weaknesses at ANGC relative to Pinehurst #2. I have my own opinions, which are not likely to be changed. Nor will I try to change anyone else’s. Since you asked, I will offer mine. Folks can agree or not, but I will not engage in a long-winded defense of them. Remember, I said that AGNC is one of my favorite places on the planet, and I think it is one of the top 20 courses in the world. (I have played almost all of the courses that are generally ranked in the top 20.)  I just don’t think it is among the top 5. It’s just a matter of degree and competition. In fact, I don’t think is as good as #2. Here is my logic.

I actually think #2 has a better site. That is just the opposite from the opinion held by most. I’ve seen #2 listed among great courses on a poor site with the assertion that the site is too flat. Baloney! First, many great courses are built on sites much flatter than #2. The Old Course, for example. Sure, there are some flat holes on #2, but holes #4,5,8,9,13,16,17, and 18 have plenty elevation change (but not too much). In my opinion, ANGC has too much elevation change for my taste. There are lots of holes where you tee off from the high ground, walk downhill, and then back up hill to the green. To varying degrees, that applies to holes #1,4,5,6,8,9,10, and 18. Holes 14 and 17 and slightly uphill all the way.

I can’t think of a single hole at Pinehurst #2 that I consider a mediocre or poor hole. I think there are several holes at ANGC that if located on just about any other course would be considered mediocre. On number 1, most players, including many of the tournament players, have to lay back to avoid the deep fairway bunker and the trees on the left. I don’t like an opening hole that takes the driver out of the better player’s hand. #7 has been lengthened too much. It is so narrow and the elevated green is so hard to hit, that the player who can hit the fairway should be able to hit a lofted iron to the green. Not anymore. #8 is a long uphill slog, extremely hard to reach in two, making it a very routine 3-shot par 5. #9 is one of my least favorite holes. Unless you are incredibly long, a good tee shot leaves you on a downhill-sidehill lie to an elevated green.
#17 and #18 are not among the better finishing holes in golf by a long shot. President Eisenhower was right. The tree should have been removed. Now that they have lengthened #17, it has gone from a mediocre to a bad hole. The green was never designed to receive the shot that is now required. #18 gets a pass because of all the drama that has occurred there. I have even seen it listed on this board as one of the best finishing holes in golf. I don’t think so. The chute off the tee is too tight. The trees on the right have invaded the fairway a little more each year. That last long walk up to the green can be brutal at the end of the day.

I would like to see the fairways at both courses widened. That is not likely to happen at Augusta, but I think it will at #2.   For all the talk about the greens, both courses are about the approach shot to the green. At Augusta you must hit the right spot on the green in order to have a reasonable putt. At #2, you must hit the right spot to keep the ball on the green, period. In order to hit the required approach, there is a big advantage in playing from the preferred side of the fairway. In some cases those preferred landing areas have been eliminated or reduced by rough. It can be such a beautiful thing. Hit your tee shot to the right spot, set up the best angle to the green, land the approach in the right place on the green, make one or  two putts.

I like to say that #2 rewards excellence, tolerates good, and punishes mediocrity. As it should be!
One last point….#2 is modified very rarely, usually moving a tee back. If ANGC is so great, why do they change it every year?
Jim
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

scott_wood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2009, 04:14:01 PM »
Jim, many THANKS for taking the time and effort to post such cogent observations.....

GCA as it should be!!
(and why many of us continue to lurk..)
 
Regards
Scott

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2009, 09:43:33 PM »
Jim, many THANKS for taking the time and effort to post such cogent observations.....

GCA as it should be!!
(and why many of us continue to lurk..)
 
Regards
Scott

Jim Lewis,

I agree with Scott totally.  Thank you.

I've played neither, though I've attended the Masters practice rounds and I've been watching the tournament even before I started playing.  Your observations on #2 appear to reinforce the impressions I've gained from seeing the course on television and talking to several people who've played it. 

An architect I've gotten to know well has reminded me several times when I've questioned some of his work (e.g. a shallow bunker on a short par 4, a backboard to a green, a green complex set back a bit from a hazard, etc.) that golf is supposed to be fun.  My taste in golf courses has evolved somewhat over the years following my formal education in the game at Ohio State's difficult Scarlet Course.  This site has had some influence in my thinking; no doubt that age and diminishing skills have as well, but I am now more often impressed with less exacting, more varied courses.  Patience not being one of my better virtues, I suspect that a firm and fast #2 would expose my many other shortcomings.

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but I would be curious to know your thoughts on Winged Foot- West in comparison to Bethpage- Black.   

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2009, 10:01:44 PM »
Lou:

I try to limit my posts to subjects where I think I know enough to add value to the discussion. There are many here who are much better qualified to compare Winged Foot West and Bethpage Black. I've played both, but it has been at least 15 years since I played WF West and about 5 years since my one time at Bethpage. (played WF East 3 years ago)
My recollection is that the greens at WF are much more challenging, but that Bethpage was more difficult for me because it such a tough physical challenge. The place is huge and a tough walk for an old guy. I can tell you this much. If I have a chance to play one or the other again, it will definitely be Winged Foot. I love the clubhouse and lunch on the patio. Plus, I have friends who are members there. I 'm not willing to make the effort required to play the Black.

Jim
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Chris Flamion

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Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2009, 12:05:27 AM »
Jim-

Possibly one of the best thought out negative review I have read on the sight.  I have been to Pinehurst and admit to walking away thoroughly smitten with the course and the feel.  Thanks for just putting forth such a great post.


Andrew Thomson

Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2009, 07:15:27 AM »
I've played neither course, but Jim has just sent #2 right up near the top of my lists of places to go.

This post also awoke me from my lurking slumber, great to get an insight into ANGC that isn't the usual. 

Having said that, it still remains above #2 on where I'd like to play, but the gap just closed significantly!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2009, 10:39:33 AM »
Lou:

I try to limit my posts to subjects where I think I know enough to add value to the discussion.

Another great position/comment.

Your comparison of #2 to AN brought to mind my single-play experiences at WFW and BB a few years back.  Though WFW's greens are probably more akin to AN's than #2's, I thought your description of #2 fit my experience at WFW, a very exacting, unforgiving golf course.  My round at BB, a course which has more interesting topography than WFW, but with relatively flat greens, felt more like your description of playing AN.  I much prefered BB, eventhough I had a nice talk with fellow Buckeye Tom Nieporte before my round.

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2009, 11:33:27 AM »
Chris:

I never intended that my comments about ANGC be viewed as "negative". I suppose that in the interest of brevity I failed to mention that the course's few shortcomings are more than offset by some magnificant holes and other features, usch as the amazing greens. The same has often been said about Pebble Beach. I repeat that I think it is one of the great (top 20) courses in the world. However, in my opinion, in order for a course to be top 5 USA or top 10 world, it has to be almost flawless. When evaluating top tier courses, I look at it much like Olympics judges view gymnastics or diving. To be a perfect 10, there can be no discernable weaknesses. I can't help it, but when I play a top tier course I always look for ways I think it could be even better. I have seen only a very few that I can't imagine how they could be improved (except to be moved to a warmer climate!). Those are the courses that I would place in the top 5-10. When C&C finishes their restoration at Pinehurst #2, I may give it a 10 again. I suspect that ANGC will remain a small notch below that perfect 10. In an effort to protect par they seem to be moving in the other direction.

Lou:
Tom Nieporte is one of the great guys. The first time I met him at Winged Foot I told him how I remembered him winning at the Bob Hope Classic and Bob making some wisecrack about him having so many children. He was flattered that I remembered, so I was treated quite well.  You probably know that he retired about 4-5 years ago. A good friend of mine showed me a DVD recording of the retirement party. It was special.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Kenny Baer

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Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2009, 09:46:28 PM »
Jim,

Great comments. Having never played #2 or ANGC I don't really see much to argue with, a very well informed critique/review.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2009, 11:41:34 AM »
Lou:
Tom Nieporte is one of the great guys. The first time I met him at Winged Foot I told him how I remembered him winning at the Bob Hope Classic and Bob making some wisecrack about him having so many children. He was flattered that I remembered, so I was treated quite well.  You probably know that he retired about 4-5 years ago. A good friend of mine showed me a DVD recording of the retirement party. It was special.

Jim,

We talked for about 30 minutes which seemed more like five.  He was very interested in the changes to OSU's Scarlet course, though he seemed to be somewhat removed from the university.  He was already on emeritus status when we met, and it's my understanding that he still has the run of the place in retirement.  I think that he may be a Mormon.  I had seen his picture and All-American placks on the wall of the old tavern at the club where we settled our bets, and always wanted to meet him.  He is one of those guys who you instantly like upon meeting him.  May he have a long life in good health. 

Chris Flamion

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2009, 12:57:54 PM »
Jim-

You are right it isn't a negative review.  In fact it is obviously a very highly recommended review.  However,  any time someone gives ANGC a non perfect 10 it is one of the more "negative" reviews of the course.  I will take your Olympic reference and expand on it,  judging is a political game, and as such most reviews tend to be the same way.  You simply said the course has flaws, which is more than most people fortunate enough to play the course have ever been willing to say.  There are of course exceptions to this and a good number of them are around here.  You are right to feel that any course that is a top 5/10 should be perfect and by stating ANGC isn't perfect you simply broke the mold.  I commend you on saying what you feel and giving a very detailed reasoning as to why it is that way.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2009, 09:07:04 PM »
Jim Lewis,

I too love ANGC and PH # 2.

And, I would love to discuss your assessment of the course and holes.

I think ANGC is a fairly difficult site compared to PH # 2.
It's essentially on the side of a very large hill that has some upward swing on the front nine.

PH # 2 has plenty of elevation changes, ie # 4, # 5, # 13, # 14, # 18 and other holes to a lesser degree.

The difficulty in analyzing ANGC is the time or point of analysis.
I believe one of the difficulties in assessing ANGC is the "morphing" nature of the golf course.
I don't know of any golf course that undergoes as many changes, on a perennial basis, as ANGC.

Thus, the evaluation of a hole five short years ago, could be different today.

While PH # 2 has experienced changes due to the hosting of Tournaments, including Majors, they're nothing like the yearly changes that occur at ANGC.

I don't think there's a weak hole on either course.

Although, my initial thoughts on # 11 at PH # 2 was that it was fairly mundane.

Both courses are unique/special.
They seem to present a totally different challenge.

When I have the time I'll comment on some of your thoughts.

It's been a while since I've played PH # 5.  Has that course remained untouched, or has it too suffered from the architectural scalpel

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2009, 09:14:14 PM »
Those of you that have played ANGC, did you play it in November? Its going back a long while ago but the turf was thin. and muddy beneath. Not the sort of conditioning one would expect.

Bob

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2009, 09:41:41 PM »
Bob Huntley,

I think that most people think of ANGC as it appears on TV every spring.

The TV dates are probably the target dates for the course being at its best, visually and probably from a playability aspect as well.

It can be quite different at other times of the year, but, few have the benefit of that perspective.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Augusta National
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2009, 11:50:11 AM »
Bob,

I talked to a gentleman who played Augusta National in early November and he said the overseeded fairways were half-an-inch long and pretty wet.  From the members' tees it was driver, fairway metalwood, pitch.  Needless to say, the round was not much fun for him, but he plays there probably like you play my favorite course, so the companionship aspect is most important.

The Masters is an institution, and I am sure there's not a more valued membership anywhere, but for everything to be geared for that one week period must be frustrating for the members.  I know that I would have enjoyed Palmetto much more were it not for the heavy overseeding and the necessary watering, and it is probably done minimally in comparison to AN.

Nevertheless, an invitation to play AN would be greatly welcomed and accepted at any time.
 

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