Course/Club Criticism

[SB]

I'm aware of that. How does that make him any different to the many other golf authors, golf magazine editors etc in the DG?

Matt was the only one that came to mind.  

[Mark Pearce]

Am I alone in being somewhat amused that the opinion of a journalist is worth more than the opinion of an enthusiast in anyone's world?

[Matt_Ward]

Mark P:

Read what I personally posted.

Opinions can come from any direction.

I happen to be a golf enthusiast first and foremost.

Scott W:

mea culpa partner ...

[Dean Stokes]

Am I alone in being somewhat amused that the opinion of a journalist is worth more than the opinion of an enthusiast in anyone's world?

No.

[Jim_Kennedy]

This thread reminds me of the reason I love our last hole. It is such a love/hate inducing 533 yard ride that no one ever feels shy about telling anyone within earshot exactly what they think.

It's a great ice breaker.

[Mike Sweeney]

This thread reminds me of the reason I love our last hole. It is such a love/hate inducing 533 yard ride that no one ever feels shy about telling anyone within earshot exactly what they think.

It's a great ice breaker.

It took me a while, but I finally figured it out. 3 wood from the back or a hybrid 3 if the tee is up. Then hybrid 3 aiming to the right side where it bounces to a flat are, wedge and 1 putt! Hey I actually did it last trip!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Yes you did Mike, and with a gallery!

Easy hole. 

[Mark Pearce]

Mark P:

Read what I personally posted.

Opinions can come from any direction.

I happen to be a golf enthusiast first and foremost.

Matt,

My, aren't we sensitive?  My post wasn't addressed to you but to those who suggested your opinion was more valuable than others because of your profession.  Your opinions are always worth reading (even if I don't agree with them and ones I take note of.  Not because of what you do but because you have opinions and experience to back them up.  Do you have a problem with that?  Might I suggest you pay some attention to your own suggestion and acually read what others write and think about what they are saying before you jump in?

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

I'm not overly sensitive but simply stating that my opinions are simply mine -- I also learn from others who have taken the time to back up their findings with any personal info they care to share.

I just stated that those who want to know the opinions of others should not ask for them if they are not prepared to hear certain things that don't jive with what they believe.

I do believe that certain opinions can carry more weight --  not simply because of the playing experiences but in tandem with any indepth analysis to highlight why such course(s) are worth playing or returning to play.

Thanks for your additional comments.

[J_ Crisham]

"You may steal a man's money, you may sleep with his wife but never never criticize his golf course."

I think any reluctance to criticize courses one has been invited to play in the US has a lot to do with the fact that, at a certain tier, one may typically play only if accompanied by a member or if a member has made the arrangements.  It is a social rather than just an economic transaction and my sense is that most do not wish to appear ungrateful or rude.
One of the great things about being invited to someone's club/course is the opportunity to see the things that get them excited about it.
I have only ever had one negative experience in this regard and it involved a self proclaimed expert (not anyone currently affiliated with this site) who made some absolutely absurd comments about specific holes and was abusive of the caddies and my hospitality he then privately shredded the course to a number of people and his comments got back to me. After my most unpleasant experience, I was not surprised.

As some participants on this site know, I am more than happy to listen to and discuss objective constructive or academic criticism when it comes to my course. I find it entertaining and I certainly have my own criticism's.  What really irritated me with regard to the episode described above was the fact that the guest seemed to believe that by denigrating our course, he would elevate his own.

I think that when someone makes the effort to invite and host you, graciousness is the key.  Be objective when it comes to the course but that also includes recognition of the positive not just the negative.

Rory,  Nice post-my only criticism of your club is that your 18th hole is just plain brutal for us middle aged amateurs! Hard to believe someone would be less than positive about your club-I know you may see a jump in the number of Chicago guys trying to play there next summer!    Wish you well,   Jack

[Kyle Harris]

"You may steal a man's money, you may sleep with his wife but never never criticize his golf course."

I think any reluctance to criticize courses one has been invited to play in the US has a lot to do with the fact that, at a certain tier, one may typically play only if accompanied by a member or if a member has made the arrangements.  It is a social rather than just an economic transaction and my sense is that most do not wish to appear ungrateful or rude.
One of the great things about being invited to someone's club/course is the opportunity to see the things that get them excited about it.
I have only ever had one negative experience in this regard and it involved a self proclaimed expert (not anyone currently affiliated with this site) who made some absolutely absurd comments about specific holes and was abusive of the caddies and my hospitality he then privately shredded the course to a number of people and his comments got back to me. After my most unpleasant experience, I was not surprised.

As some participants on this site know, I am more than happy to listen to and discuss objective constructive or academic criticism when it comes to my course. I find it entertaining and I certainly have my own criticism's.  What really irritated me with regard to the episode described above was the fact that the guest seemed to believe that by denigrating our course, he would elevate his own.

I think that when someone makes the effort to invite and host you, graciousness is the key.  Be objective when it comes to the course but that also includes recognition of the positive not just the negative.

Let me tell you what I think about that golf course of yours, Rory....

What? Not taking my bluff? 

[Rory Connaughton]

Jack:

  Thanks for the kind words.  Hope to get a chance to meet up with you and/or play when you come back to SE PA in 2010. Bring as many as you like.  I agree that 18 is a long finishing hole for us mortals. Believe it or not, Mike Van Sickle hit 9 iron in in the final round of the 2007 State Open and that's with the tee thirty yards farther back than we play it.  In fairness I have had any number of communications with participants on this site regarding strengths and weaknesses of our course and theirs. It has always been a good experience from my perspective.  (I would not have met Mike Malone but for my interest in some comments he made about another course that I am particularly interested in).  In fact, some of those conversations has, after consideration, led to positive action by the club. Its all about intent and delivery.

Hey Kyle, let me guess . . . inconsistency in the firmness of the approaches! :-)

[Kyle Harris]

Jack:

  Thanks for the kind words.  Hope to get a chance to meet up with you and/or play when you come back to SE PA in 2010. Bring as many as you like.  I agree that 18 is a long finishing hole for us mortals. Believe it or not, Mike Van Sickle hit 9 iron in in the final round of the 2007 State Open and that's with the tee thirty yards farther back than we play it.  In fairness I have had any number of communications with participants on this site regarding strengths and weaknesses of our course and theirs. It has always been a good experience from my perspective.  (I would not have met Mike Malone but for my interest in some comments he made about another course that I am particularly interested in).  In fact, some of those conversations has, after consideration, led to positive action by the club. Its all about intent and delivery.

Hey Kyle, let me guess . . . inconsistency in the firmness of the approaches! :-)

Ha! I had even forgotten about some of them being a bit soft. Shows you how highly I think of the place

[Matt Day]

Is one visit enough to form a fair opinion? I've been in the position where I've taken friends to play my home track and they hated it, but after a couple of visits they're opinions changed as they got to know the course and played it in different winds and set ups.

[C. Squier]

Why are people surprised that members are sensitive to criticism of the course they've plunked tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars into?  Seriously?

No different than a woman, house, car, job.....some people just don't want to hear you'd do something different.  It's well within their right, IMO.

[Kevin Pallier]

I think that when someone makes the effort to invite and host you, graciousness is the key.  Be objective when it comes to the course but that also includes recognition of the positive not just the negative.

Agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments Rory

I hope to get back to see it and possibly play it one day 

[Bob_Huntley]

This subject has been raised more than once over the years.

I think this comment bumped from July 6th, 2004 would be a good way to handle a delicate situation.

Gib,

Your review reminds me of something similar to the one written by George Bernard Shaw, when he was the music critic for The Times, (London).

He attended a concert given by an obscure string quartet, it was an execrable performance.

He wrote, "Last evening the 'Obscure String Quartet' gave a unique performance of Beethoven string quartets. I must say, that I have heard nothing quite like it before."

Bob

[Steve Wilson]

Totally off topic, but the music criticism story reminded me of this.

An aspiring sports reporter was sent, due to the illness of the arts reporter, to cover a concert.  His story consisted of
"Tonight an amateur string quartet played Brahms.  Brahms lost."

[Rick Shefchik]

The sad fact is that you can tell a guy his wife is sleeping around and he may punch your lights out.

But, I can say this for certain - tell the same guy the place he plays is a garbage dump or something akin to that and you WILL certainly get a fistful from him.

Can't disagree more. Say what you want about my course...

[Matt_Ward]

Rick:

You are more the exception than the rule.

When I did ratings for Digest for 17 years people used to ask me all the time about my thoughts on their golf course. I tried to duck the issue directly in order to avoid any tension -- I often would say I need to "digest" (no pun intended) the layout and I could get back to them with my response. One time I didn't say that and the place I played was a disaster -- the person who got my answer felt I was out of touch and I simply nodded and went my way.

Often times -- people say they want the honest feedback -- the ones who really do are more in the minority than many might imagine.

You obviously are the exception that welcomes it. More power to you.

[Rick Shefchik]

But Matt, what I really want to know is how people react when you tell them their wife is a tramp.

[Matt_Ward]

Rick:

Usually, they can handle it -- often times they are sleeping around too.

But if you should call their course a "tramp" be ready to stand guard for the brawl that ensues.

[JMEvensky]

I agree with Rick Shefchik,say whatever you like.

Other than an opinion from an architect or someone with architecture knowledge,who cares what some putz thinks of your golf course?

[Steve Wilson]

For what it's worth Henry Longhurst said "You can screw their women, drink their whiskey but whatever you do, don't criticise their golf course."

Etiquette for critics or travelling golfers?  Chances are if you very critical the question would arise"Why would you want to play here?"

[Sean_A]

For what it's worth Henry Longhurst said "You can screw their women, drink their whiskey but whatever you do, don't criticise their golf course."

Etiquette for critics or travelling golfers?  Chances are if you very critical the question would arise"Why would you want to play here?"

Steve

I don't like the sound of Longhurst's world view unless I am the "you". 

Seems to me people need to grow some thicker skin or there won't be much of interest to talk about. 

Ciao