[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I am well aware of the event you mentioned -- I helped organize it.

The course gets little attention -- go outside a 75-mile-radius and the recognition factor really drops off.

The efforts made by the club and the folks they hired speaks volumes in terms of their desire to advance what they already had.

I've never met anyone after playing the place who did not marvel at what it provides.

Great terrain and a joy to play.

Be great to have a GCA event there with golf this time on the agenda.

[Jay Flemma]

Guys, is the sybase at Upper Montclair and not here?  I saw reports it isn't going to be at Essex County?  Clarification please.  I saw two reports that said UM and one that said essex, but the upper montclair seems to be right?

Thanks.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Thinking about it is this a course that plays easier for a right to left player, I may not be a good judge right now as all I can picture is the ball turning left.

There's good variety at ECCC.  I toured the front w/George Bahto some years ago when they began their renovations, I played the inward nine and remember that it worked very well for me, a leftie w/ a draw, but overall, I don't think there was a bias toward the  right to left player.

[Steve Lapper]

Great course grossly under appreciated by the raters and golf-publishing cognoscenti. Not so by local NJ players of any breadth.

Jay.

I'm told the LPGA wants to go to ECCC and the club had finally settled the last sticking points before the LPGA realized a loss of satisfactory sponsorship to complete the move. I'd bet nothing is final yet.

[George_Bahto]

I heard it was a dead deal

I'd say the course does favor a lefty just a bit on the front 9 (holes 1 & 2) but overall the holes are fairway stright or slighly dog-legged, but not enuf to give either an advantage

[George_Bahto]

Tree removal on the 18th hole - this club has really championed tree removal (once they got going    )

the "after" photo was taken from the added new tee on 18 which is just off the back of 17-green



a better view:

[Jim_Kennedy]

George,
Is that trailer your home away from home?    Much nicer look for 18.

[Matt_Ward]

I have always found the closing hole at ECCC to be grossly undervalyed when similar ending holes throughout the NY / NJ metro area are discussed.

What makes the hole tough -- is that even downwind or into a headwind -- the shot demands are still present. Clearly, into a headwind is never easy but if played downwind and should you err by going just a tad too long -- the resulting recovery you will face is extremely challenging.

Like I said before -- hats off to the club leadership and to Gil's and George's involvement. They have clearly advanced architecture with the efforts made there.

[George_Bahto]

Local NJ Paper RE: LPGA's Sybase Classic

Tuesday - 11/18/09

After a successful three-year run at Upper Montclair Country Club in Clifton, Octagon decided not to renew its contract with the club, choosing to go elsewhere for 2010. For the past three months, the company and the LPGA have been negotiating with Essex County Country Club in West Orange to be the new host site for the Sybase Classic.

Essex County C.C. and Octagon were on the verge of signing a two-year deal to host the event in 2010 and 2011, when talks broke down. Late Tuesday, Octagon's team informed Essex County's board of governors that the event would not be able to take place because of sponsorship issues.

P"We had the contract terms, for the most part, ironed out within the last week or so," Essex County's president ****** ********** told The Star-Ledger Tuesday night. "I think over the last few days, they realized they may not be able to pull (together) the sponsorships in order to have the commitment."

That has left the Sybase Classic on the outside looking in for the 2010 season. The schedule for 2010, includes only 23 events — down from 34 in 2008 and 27 in 2009.

Nuts - I wanted to caddie for Paula     

[Jay Flemma]

I'd like to thank George and Essex County for a wonderful day at the club today.

I'm happy to announce that Golf Observer will shortly be putting out an article naming me in charge of architecture for the magazine, and I'll be doing a bi-weekly series for them on trends in golf design.  Any constructive help and advice is always welcome.  I'd rather you contact me off-list for ideas.  My first article appeared two weeks ago on Awarii Dunes.

This week's piece will be on George and his wonderful gifts to the game at Sleepy, The Knoll, and Essex.  I have an assignment from Sal Johnson for the next piece, but after that, I'll be on my own again to pick what I like  In the mean time, I'll post some photos of Essex on a new thread.  I'll also have a Sleepy Hollow piece at Cybergolf.

Until then, I'll have photos of Essex for you all shortly on the other thread and an article for everyone to read soon.  Thanks again to George and everyone at ECCC.  You are the true heroes of the game with how you bring the Golden Age back.  Thanks also to GCA.com and it's participants.  When we are on our game, we are a shining light and a credit to ran, Ben and golf.  We sometimes accomplish a great deal when we put our energy in that direction. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jay,
Nice sentiments in your last post, although after reading them I am a bit surprised that the access to the information you had did little for your ability to correctly identify some of the Banks holes you were able to see, play, photograph, and post about on the other ECCC thread. 

If it's as you say that "When we are on our game, we are a shining light and a credit to ran, Ben and golf" and that at times it is possible to "accomplish a great deal when we put our energy in that direction" don't you think that you ought to start by having your facts straight?

You won't be honoring any of the various people and places you mentioned in your post if you don't.

[Jay Flemma]

Even George said those holes were much harder to identify because they don't look anything like what they normally do.  14 looks a great deal like an Alps because you have to carry a huge bunker complex uphill to a punchbowl green.  It looks nothing like other Lion's Mouth we normally see.

the biarritz looks nothing like a normal Biarritz because there is no swale.  Go play it and you'll agree.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jay,
That's the point of my prior post, those holes are hard to identify and therefore it doesn't do anyone any good to try and explain them in a willy-nilly manner.

As for the Lion's Mouth hole, look at a couple that are found in reviews on this site, compare them to ECCC's and you'll see that it is recognizeable as such. 

I have played these holes and yes, the Biarritz doesn't look anything like a normal one, but it looks less like a Redan. If I recall correctly, the 'swale' is represented by the downhill portion of fairway where it meets the front edge of green. I don't think there are more than a handful of people who would have ever guessed that, I would not have in a million years if it wasn't for George giving me a show-and-tell.

So that leads me back to my point, if you are going to write an article that might include a description of the stratagem found on a particular golf hole, doesn't the reader and the subject deserve a true accounting? Why make stuff up when the truth is so readily available to you? 

[Jay Flemma]

I have played these holes and yes, the Biarritz doesn't look anything like a normal one, but it looks less like a Redan. If I recall correctly, the 'swale' is represented by the downhill portion of fairway where it meets the front edge of green. I would have never guessed that if it wasn't for George giving me a show-and-tell.

So that leads me back to my point, if you are going to write an article that might include a description of the stratagem found on a particular golf hole, doesn't the reader and the subject deserve a true accounting? Why make stuff up when the truth is so readily available to you? 

1.  Well since you also never would have guessed it, aren't you a little out of line calling me out?  Or are you just doing someone else's work calling me out about it

2.  I put in a call to George and am working with him on the article, so the piece will be just fine, thanks.

See you soon at Hotchkiss.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jay,
1. I don't do anyone else's work, and don't try to malign me because you don't know what the heck you're talkiing about. You can bet on one thing, I wouldn't go shooting my mouth off without making sure the ammunition fit the gun.....and you're not a 'citizen, you wear the hat of a golf writer in your spare time, so you ought to get your facts straight.

2. The smartest thing you said so far.

See you next season, you're always welcome.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Curious to know given the range of courses you have played -- would you include Essex County among the top 100 classic courses that Golfweek presents?

If not -- what elements do you think hold it back.

Thanks for your input ...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
I could waste a lot of words typing out my feelings about ECCC, but I mostly agree with what you’ve written, save for two things:

I.- I thought the 2nd hole was a good one, but I enjoy the occasional blind drive. Although I did not play it (much of the front was under construction), I did putt balls around on it for quite some time. I think it’s a perfect complement to the rest of the hole. Another green on the front that I spent some time putting was #6, and that’s a green you had better spend some time on if  you ever want to see par on your scorecard.

2.- I couldn't even agree to the placement of it in the repertoire of NJ courses, let alone nationally. I haven’t played enough of them over any period of time to offer a view that’s meaningful. I will say that I enjoyed the holes I played at ECCC ( again, I only played the back nine) as much as I enjoyed playing at Plainfield. That's the best I can offer.

But just how does one actually come to the conclusion that, say, course # 91 Sankaty Head, is 19 places lower that course #72, Ekwanok?  I've played them both, and I dont think you could fit a hair between them, so that's my take on rankings.

Those are the facts, I checked them before I hit 'send'. 

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Good points but let me just say this ... I've played Sankaty Head and Ekwanok and like them both -- however ... i see eccc being ahead of them both now given the upgrades made by hanse / bahto.

ECCC unfortunately has been bypassed by too many people who really should know better -- especially those who are raters in and around the greater NYC metro area.

The terrain and wide variety of holes types is quite solid in all respects.

A visit to NJ without a visit to ECCC is an incomplete journey in my mind.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
What's really sad is that so many people who would appreciate it will never see it, just as they most likely won't see the other 94 course on the list that are private.

Be that as it may, time can only prove good for ECCC.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

What's sad is that the so-called "experts" in rating courses -- Digest, Golf Mag, Golfweek, really don't understand what type of courses are out there that get so little recognition but at the same keep on submitting the same tired, predictable layouts for such inclusion.

ECCC was always a solid layout -- it has crossed into the upper echelon but sadly the validation is indeed limited to those who have really understood what it provided then and what is has added in the most recent of times.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Matt Ward,

I like how the gorges were traversed on holes # 11 and # 12.

I also like how the elevation changes were handled,  from routing to the individual hole designs.

I think it's quite a unique golf course.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Perfect observation about the gorges and the elevations. It made me think back to them and how important it is to get that stuff right. It's the kind of thing that separates the best from the worst.

Matt,
I hear what you are saying about variety, but how much has been missed when talking about the Classic's list? It's not like they're making any more of 'em. What's been overlooked besides ECCC in NJ?

Jay,
I read your article and I think it gets the message across to a broad audience.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

In NJ alone I can name three (3) courses that can easily make the top 100 Golfweek classic listing.

They include the following:

Essex County CC

The Banks Course at Forsgate

Montclair GC (#2 + #4 nines)

Each is blessed with a solid site, a first rate routing and a wonderful blending of different holes in terms of distances and shot values required.

Let me point out that that when I see certain courses on their listing such as Interlachen -- a place that gets its position because of events that happened long ago (the Jones win) I just shake my head and wonder what are people looking at seriously.

Jim, there are a number of classic courses that have gone through a major upgrade in terms of bringing back to life what's there. Unfortunately, as I mentioned previously the most grievious error I see is that the lists are too static and often times once a course gets in the removal process takes far too long and often times prevents others from rising into the mix.

Part of that problem comes with this craze to number orient all elements and as a result it takes too much time for a course to fall.

Essex County CC is just a smidge behind the likes of Plainfield and Quaker Ridge in my mind and it's ahead of other more noted Jersey gems such as Baltusrol Lower and Somerset Hills.

I've yet to meet ANYONE who after playing the work that's been done recently that doesn't see it as a top 100 classic course.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,

Must be a tough chore figuring what's what, there are 44- '7's on the list and 33- '6's.  Perhaps it will rise significantly in the categories 2a & 2B to make it in the next go-round.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

From my experience the so-called elite classic courses in plenty of the other locales outside the Northeast can be quite good for their areas (e.g. Brook Hollow in Dallas is one example, Interlachen is another, etc, etc) but when held against the I-95 corridor layouts from Boston through the DC area there are a number of undervalued courses from my travels. The ones I listed from Jersey are quite good in all respects but get little, or no attention.

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