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Scott Warren

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Best European Golf Escapes
« on: November 14, 2009, 12:06:03 PM »
It's blowing about 60mph and pising down with rain in London today. Much as I love golf, 0% of me wants to be out on a golf course.

Heaps of guys I know over here love their annual winter break to the Continent to play some golf in nicer weather, but it seems plenty of the places they go are all about the weather and beach, with some pretty horrific golf to be had.

So where are the places in Portugal, Spain, Turkey and elsewhere that combine great weather, culture and golf courses worth playing?

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2009, 12:25:10 PM »
Scott what sort of Deal member are you?? 60mph winds and driving rain.......lovely!!
Cave Nil Vino

Bill_McBride

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Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2009, 12:32:43 PM »
Scott what sort of Deal member are you?? 60mph winds and driving rain.......lovely!!

That's so funny, Chappers, I was thinking the same even before I read your reply!

Turkey is intriguing in every way mentioned but golf.  Is there any in Turkey?  Greece?  I have been to Italy half a dozen times and golf has never entered my mind.

Scott Warren

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Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2009, 12:35:24 PM »
Scott what sort of Deal member are you??

An Australian one. ;)

David Stamm

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Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2009, 12:39:36 PM »
Anything involving Paris, wine, food and the surrounding Colt and Simpson courses sounds like heaven to me. Hell, I may not come back! :)
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2009, 01:22:29 PM »
Go to Heathrow and get flight to Orlando. Get window seat on right side of plane. Shoot bird out window at crazy person at certain unnamed Irish course approximately one hour after take off. Once on ground, rent car and drive straight to Mountain Lake. Do not leave until April.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 01:25:39 PM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2009, 01:31:20 PM »
Bill there are a number of courses in Belak, Turkey the area has given Spain and Portugal a wake up call. Scott the Algarve is tough to beat for winter golf with a number of very good courses but peak season you are looking €70-€150'ish a round. Take a weekend in Marrakesh or Fez, if you are adventurous I highly recommend Tel Aviv and Beruit, both are great for a long winter weekend. They just don't make a two centre trip!!
Cave Nil Vino

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2009, 03:04:47 PM »
This will sound like I'm making it up, but last month I was flipping through an Austrian golf magazine, and stumbled across pictures of a Perry Dye course in Turkey, called Links Golf Antalya or Lykia Links, with 3-4 holes right along the sea.  It looks pretty good, although I just noticed there is a third picture later in the magazine which is supposed to be the same course but in fact is Whistling Straits!

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2009, 03:10:56 PM »
My folks just spent 3 weeks in Turkey. According to them, golf courses are sparse but there is growth for the sport on the horizon in Turkey.


http://www.golfturkey.com/
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Alex Miller

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Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2009, 03:18:26 PM »
Tom-


I just took a look at that course online. Wow, that is one of the toughest resort courses I've ever seen! 20-30 yard wide fairways, a 266 yard par 3, and back to back 470+ yard par 4s. Not everyone is playing from the tips, but if they wanted to it's 7600+ with a breeze coming off of the water.

Do you think Perry got Pete's permission for the photo?  ;D

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2009, 04:57:36 PM »
The Belek area, which is about half an hour's drive east of Antalya, has about fifteen golf courses now. Some are quite nice - the new Carya course, designed by GCAer Philip Christian Spogard on behalf of Thomson Perrett and Lobb is good - but in general I thought the area was a bit of a letdown. You have 20 miles or so of perfect sandy soil right on the coast, covered in pine trees, divided into a bunch of golf resorts. Unfortunately, when the government zoned the area for golf, 15 years or more ago, no-one thought to add a 'town centre', so it's just individual hotels on individual resorts. There are very few places to eat, apart from the hotels, and apart from cabs, no way of getting around the resorts unless you have your own car.

Lykia Links is the one place that stands out. It's about 20 minutes drive further east. Ten kilometres down a tiny, rutted lane, a big golf resort appears, set in perfect sand dunes right next to a beach on which turtles lay their eggs. But the golf course is a little bit mad. There are a few holes that are over-the-top difficult, and bearing in mind that much of the region's business comes from countries that are very new to golf - there were a lot of Russians there - I would want a very early tee time, to minimise the risk of a six or seven hour round. And a big stack of golf balls.

The other issue with Belek is that getting there from the UK is not easy. You can fly direct if you take Cyprus Turkish Airlines, the northern Cypriot carrier - because they aren't internationally recognised they have to put down in Turkey before continuing to Cyprus. But I've flown CTA and I don't recommend the experience. Otherwise you basically have to change planes in Istanbul.

Antalya is a wonderful city with amazing Roman remains - Lykia is close to the ancient theatre of Aspendos, apparently the best preserved classical era theatre in the world.

The KPMG golf businesss conference is going to the Gloria resort in Belek next spring.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2009, 05:08:48 PM »
It's blowing about 60mph and pising down with rain in London today. Much as I love golf, 0% of me wants to be out on a golf course.

Heaps of guys I know over here love their annual winter break to the Continent to play some golf in nicer weather, but it seems plenty of the places they go are all about the weather and beach, with some pretty horrific golf to be had.

So where are the places in Portugal, Spain, Turkey and elsewhere that combine great weather, culture and golf courses worth playing?

What about Dubai?

Svensk Golf (Swedish Golf) magazine have an article on Belek this month. There are a few pictures of the Lykia Links and it looks pretty good. Colin Montgomerie has designed a course there and it's just opened. It's called the Montgomerie Papillon Golf Club.

Dónal.

Sean_A

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Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2009, 05:10:41 PM »
It's blowing about 60mph and pising down with rain in London today. Much as I love golf, 0% of me wants to be out on a golf course.

Heaps of guys I know over here love their annual winter break to the Continent to play some golf in nicer weather, but it seems plenty of the places they go are all about the weather and beach, with some pretty horrific golf to be had.

So where are the places in Portugal, Spain, Turkey and elsewhere that combine great weather, culture and golf courses worth playing?

Scott

I would suggest just north of Lisbon.  There are a handful of good, affordable courses.  The beaches are superb.  The scenery is lovely.  Many of the towns are wonderful.  Lisbon too is worth a few days.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2009, 05:14:18 PM »
I've seen most of those courses in Turkey, and played a couple.

The ones I played were National Golf Club ("designed" by David Feherty), the first course in Belek, and where I did the grow-in back in the 20th century. Also the Antalya Golf Club (actually designed by European Golf Design), which came along soon after right across the street.

Others I rode with the various superintendents, all of them Turks, and most of whom I consider friends. Carya (Thompson & Lobb, mostly Lobb, I think), Cornelia (Faldo), Antalya Pasha and Sultan courses (EGD), and Nobilis (Dave Thomas) are all worth a look. My good friend David Jones did an outstanding job on a tight site at Kaya.

The terrain in that part of the world is superbly suited to golf. It is within a kilometer of the sea, with a Mediterranean climate, sandy soil, covered in pine and scrub, with lots of dune-like undulation. There is a range of high mountains, snow-capped for the winter high season, opposite the sea which lends a grand backdrop to the landscape. Really, it's criminal to do anything sub-standard in that area.

The maintenance hardly varies from course to course. You will find 419 bermuda tees and fairways, with Tifdwarf greens, all lovingly watered and overseeded for the winter. It's totally resort orientated, and the standard of course presentation can be favorably compared to the likes of Orlando, if that’s your cup of tea, and for a lot of people it is. The high season runs from October through May.

Two exceptions to the maintenance are:  Nobilis, where they maintain bentgrass greens. This is a big advantage if you happen to be there in the autumn, while all the other courses are going through  the overseeding-teething pains.

The other is Lykia, the Perry Dye creation, which is done entirely in paspalum, but you won’t know that if you visit from October-May, when it’s overseeded just like everywhere else.

In my (and others’) opinion, Lykia World is the biggest failure in Turkey. The sight was all natural linksland, sand dunes, grasses, and scrub, hard by the beach. Perry Dye took bulldozers in there and flattened corridors for narrow fairways, leaving everything outside of those corridors all but unplayable.  Huge, deep bunkers and waste areas make it penal, with hardly any options. A one-in-a-thousand opportunity squandered. Nice paspalum, though.

Plus, all the other courses in Belek are in a 10 km. radius of each other, practically strung out end to end along the coast. Lykia sits on the other side of an estuary, which necessitates a  45 minute drive, even though it’s about 5 miles as the crow flies. Add to that, the road in is 20 km. of unpaved potholes through underdeveloped farmland, and access is a real chore. I know this wouldn’t matter if there were a master piece on the far side, but to see a pig’s ear sown from silk, it isn’t worth it, except, as I say, for some real fine paspalum, in the season.

The Turks are friendly and welcoming, the prices less than those of Spain or Portugal, though I enjoy more the panache of the western Med. Food is great in Turkey, as long as you’re happy with Turkish food, and don’t look for any other ethnicities. Efes beer is the best in country, but insist on it being ice cold. The wines are improving, but have a way to go. And bring your own women.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2009, 07:04:24 PM »
Steve O:

Nothing like hearing from someone who has actually been on the ground, as opposed to seeing the course in a magazine!

So is that a place I'd want to work someday?

Alfonso Erhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2009, 04:08:00 AM »
I have to agree with Sean that Lisbon is probably the best place to go if you want good golf courses (Oitavos, Penha Longa, Praia del Rei and Troia) + food + something else to do. I don't think the Algarve can provide any of that.

You can also try Spain, in the Sotogrande/Marbella area, but only if you choose your courses wisely (Sotogrande, Aloha, Santana, Valderrama, La Reserva, Las Brisas, Guadalmina). Many more poor courses than good ones, although you have very good places to eat and good sights not far away.

Finally, although weather is not so good (but much better than in London), try Southwest France. Food is simply fantastic and there is a bunch of classic golf courses waiting to be played (Chiberta, Chantaco, Hossegor, Biarritz) plus you can always go to San Sebastian for sights.

Regards,

Scott Warren

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Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2009, 05:00:35 AM »
Cheers guys.

Alfonso and Sean: what you have said is what I suspected. It appeared to me that the likes of the Algarve had the golf and sun covered, but were largely devoid of that slice of Portuguese culture.


Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2009, 08:14:06 AM »
This will sound like I'm making it up, but last month I was flipping through an Austrian golf magazine, and stumbled across pictures of a Perry Dye course in Turkey, called Links Golf Antalya or Lykia Links, with 3-4 holes right along the sea.  It looks pretty good, although I just noticed there is a third picture later in the magazine which is supposed to be the same course but in fact is Whistling Straits!

Is this the course - Lykia Links?


Steve Okula

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Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2009, 08:21:34 AM »
Steve O:

Nothing like hearing from someone who has actually been on the ground, as opposed to seeing the course in a magazine!

So is that a place I'd want to work someday?

Tom,

I think if you got one of those pieces of sandy ground along the coast you could have a ball with it. But there were only a certain number of these gems, and I'm not sure if there are any left, they may all be spoken for by now.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2009, 08:44:06 AM »
This will sound like I'm making it up, but last month I was flipping through an Austrian golf magazine, and stumbled across pictures of a Perry Dye course in Turkey, called Links Golf Antalya or Lykia Links, with 3-4 holes right along the sea.  It looks pretty good, although I just noticed there is a third picture later in the magazine which is supposed to be the same course but in fact is Whistling Straits!

Is this the course - Lykia Links?


+

Scott,

I got semi-burned on that about a year ago when I did a "name that course" segment.  The site says its the course in Turkey, but I got quickly schooled by my fellow GCA'ers that it is indeed Whistling Straits.

It would seem false advertising is not a big deal in Turkey!

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2009, 09:37:26 AM »
Thanks Kalen,

My post was perhaps worded poorly. As you say, their site claims this is a pic of Lykia Links, but it looks unlike anything else in the pics on that and other sites.

Strange.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2009, 10:49:06 AM »
Scott:

Yes, that's the picture I referred to earlier, which is actually the back nine at Whistling Straits.

I have seen that sort of false advertising before.  They start out "borrowing" a picture like that before the course is built, to show what it's going to be like ... and then foget to replace it when the new course doesn't look quite that exciting.

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2009, 01:00:43 PM »
Are there any good golf courses in the vicinity of Barcelona.  The city has always fascinated me particularly the architecture.

Thanks in advance.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2009, 01:04:51 PM »
Ash,

PGA Catalunya rings a bell. Like you, I am intersted to hear what else there is.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best European Golf Escapes
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2009, 01:19:00 PM »
Ash / Scott:

I have never heard anything special about the golf around Barcelona.  It strikes me as one of those places you should go "sans clubs," like Italy.

However if you are dying for a golf fix, Valencia could probably be done in a day trip, and I've always heard good things about El Saler.

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