[Matt_Ward]

I realize that yadages for many courses have increased to handle the gains from technology and the overall strength gains made by various players.

What I think can really help is if designers forced players to "work the ball" off the tee -- not with 90 degree turning points -- but more towards the 30-45 degree range.

Modern drivers are very good at hitting the ball straight -- getting a player to hit it long and working the ball with total command from one side to the other is a far different matter.

The idea that more length is the cure -- doesn't impact such players -- I can speak to that side of the equation very well.

Working the ball with the long clubs puts added pressure on such players -- it's not enough to hit it long alone. Having design elements that accentuate such a skill would really provide some assistance to those players who do control the length and direction of their tee shots. Simply pounding away for the sake of pounding away would have little real advantage over the long haul.

Just a thought ...

[Giles Payne]

I think that this is a very good point - it brings a suitable element of risk and reward into a players strategy. I always find course that require these skills are a much stiffer test of my game than pure length. This is where trees can also help in the equation, protecting the corners of doglegs so you have to work around them rather than just blast over a bunker if you have the necessary length.

I will be very interested in the views of others.

[Jason Topp]

Matt:

I agree that forcing players to work the ball off the tee is a desireable way to reward shotmaking over distance.

I think a tree to the right or left of the tee box a short distance out is a better way to accomplish this effect, compared to a dogleg:

1.  On a dogleg, the fairway needs to be very narrow before a player is truly required to work the ball.

2.  A dogleg gives a double advantage to the player who carries the ball farther off the tee.  A 25 yard advantage in carry distance can leave a long hitter 50 yards closer to the green, depending on the angle.  It is almost impossible to offset that advantage by turning the ball.

By contrast, a tree does not impose a double advantage to a long hitter and has the same impact even with a wide fairway, particularly if the green is set up to favor a shot from the same side the player needs to turn the ball.

[Richard Choi]

Rewarding? Yes. Forcing? Please, god, no.

[Adam Clayman]

Forcing? Please, god, no.

INDEED

[Jason Topp]

Forcing? Please, god, no.

INDEED

I have no problem with forcing a player that wants to play from the back tees and hit a driver to curve the ball in one direction or the other. 

I have a big problem with imposing the same requirement from any other tee. 

That is why a tree is a great way to impose the requirement.  The forward tee can be positioned so it is not an issue.

[Mike Wagner]

It would be even better if the ball were rolled back and became again more workable. 

[Giles Payne]

I think that there should be the option of hitting shorter but straight, it is just that to gain the reward from attacking the hole by driving further you would need to be able to shape the ball. If you don't manage to do this you either run out of fairway or you block yourself out from the subsequent shot. You are then left having to shape the ball in the opposite direction to try to recover. All in all, a proper test of strategy and execution.

[Adam Clayman]

The archie that forces anything is doing himself and everyone a dis-service. Allowing for the player to play the shot Matt describes is a better way to describe it. Maybe it's vernacular? Maybe it's Matt?

[TEPaul]

Matt:

Very good point. That's probably the basic reason a hole like ANGC's #13 will always be so enduringly good!

[Tony Ristola]

I realize that yadages for many courses have increased to handle the gains from technology and the overall strength gains made by various players.

What I think can really help is if designers forced players to "work the ball" off the tee -- not with 90 degree turning points -- but more towards the 30-45 degree range.

Tees offset from fairways.

[Mike Benham]

How many on this website have the ability to "work the ball"?

[Kalen Braley]

How many on this website have the ability to "work the ball"?

Mike,

Most of the time, I would say its better said that the ball works me...because on many shots I have no clue where its going!!      

[Alex Miller]

Another way encouraging working the ball off the tee can be done is to have a canted fairway. If a player wants to hold the fairway hit a draw or fade into the slope. #3 at Yale is a good example.

Also, Mike, I can work the ball off the tee (sometimes on purpose), but I think the farther back one plays on a course the more it should be called for. Tee boxes should not be in a straight line!

[Jason Topp]

How many on this website have the ability to "work the ball"?

Reliably:  Not very many.

 I enjoy trying to hit a left to right shot even though I cannot consistently do so.  I remember it well when I do pull it off.  

Someone who can control such a shot should have an advantage that is not drowned out by someone else hitting the ball 30 yards further.  

[Norbert P]

 I enjoy trying to hit a left to right shot even though I cannot consistently do so.  I remember it well when I do pull it off.  

Someone who can control such a shot should have an advantage that is not drowned out by someone else hitting the ball 30 yards further.  

 Nice post, Jason.  I'm in that group of 'trying it just for the heck of it' as sometimes it just works . . . to my amazement.

   Which takes me to  . . .   Scramble Golf.    A lot of these shaper shots I may not even try unless . . .  I got my buddy/buddies over there waiting to help me forget my foozles.

[Norbert P]

Wouldn't a nice little fade off the Driver work nicely here?   Or would a straght 3 Wood be better?

 

[Kalen Braley]

Why can't we get more tee shots that look like this?   

[Matt OBrien]

Why can't we get more tee shots that look like this?   

I Love the golf course you can see on the left there.

[Rob Rigg]

An interesting dilemma for the archie isn't it -

Create a situation where the guys from the tips have to work the ball to gain an advantage, but do not penalize the "average" golfer who is just happy if his ball ends up somewhere in the fairway.

Using the tee boxes to create angles is a great idea.

I still like the idea of rolling back the ball which would probably result in the use of smaller club heads for elite golfers, to aid in working the ball. It is much easier to "feel" and thus work the ball with a steel shafted titanium head three wood than a beach ball sized driver with a graphite shaft.

I recall TD saying that the big boys at Cape Kid/Kiwi Challenge last year were just bombing the ball straight on every hole regardless if that was the "ideal" shot or not.

[Tom_Doak]

I agree with Matt's general point.  I generally decline to "force" a player to shape a shot with trees, understanding that even very good players have difficulty working the ball both ways.  I think it's okay for a tree to prevent a straight ball from getting into an advantageous position, but I don't think it's okay to go so far that a guy who always hits a fade will probably hit the tree and make a triple bogey.

Rob:  At Cape Kidnappers there are a couple of holes where the players are rewarded for working the ball off the tee ... most notably the tee shot on #14 where you are playing diagonally across the ravine from left to right, and you want to hug the right side as much as you can.  That hole gave a couple of guys fits last year, although they hit out-of-this-world second shots to make up for it.  However, the fingers of land on which the course is built are quite straight away, so on holes like 15 and 17 there was really no opportunity to make them work the ball one way or another.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys:

Let me say this again -- today's drivers provide for added distance but they also mandate more of a straight shot than anything else. The nature of today's balls also limits the amount of sidespin and as a result I think it's really a plus for any course that adds a real benefit for players who can work the ball beyond simply beating it out there mega distance.

Let me point out that classic architecture courses do have this element -- I see the likes of Winged Foot / West which closes with two holes - the 17th bends gently to the right and the 18th favors the exact opposite ball flight. The smart player who wants to maximize the movement of the fairway needs to shape the shot accordingly. The 8th at WF/W is another good example as it bends to the right.

Working the ball with a driver is the ultimate in shotmaking -- more so today given the nature of balls and drivers and how they are produced today. Long drivers do not fear added length in the same manner that quality hitters don't fear the ultra-fastball that travels in a straight line. When you have movement it requires another layer of shotmaking skill and in many ways provides an equalizer to the power only element that many players have. One doesn't need trees to accomplish this - you can use mounding and other tactics. But clearly, power should be rewarded -- but not without some sort of skill level that demonstrates control of the ball from side-to-side.

Hogan was a big time advocate in players showing the skill set in working the ball -- I just see it asbeing a tactic that more architects need to weave into their overall routings and designs.

[Alex Miller]

I think one thing that is needed to produce shot-shaping off of tees without trees interfering is fast and firm conditions.

1. Trees should not be required on a golf course nor should they block a player's route to the fairway

2. Bunkers and hazards set at a diagonal do not force the player to move the ball if they can just fly it and land it softly. (e.g. watching the pros do this at 18 on Waialae every year, and if that hole doesnt call for a right to left shot, what does?)

3. Undulations in the fairway which can force the player to think about what happens after the ball lands have more of an effect


Under f&f conditions, shot shaping from the tee becomes exponentially more important!

[Mike Wagner]

Matt,

I don't want to take this off topic too much, but I couldn't disagree more that "working the ball with the driver is the ultimate in shot making."

I've always thought the ultimate shot makers out there get the ball close to the hole from a lot of different scenarios.  Quite frankly I've never seen a course where "relatively straight" off the tee wasn't a good thing.  Of course, working the ball with the driver can put you in advantageous positions, but the ultimate "shotmakers" put it close to the hole.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Help yourself out by reading the Trevino articles that have appeared in the major mags to celebrate his 70th year. Believe the mex mentions the singular importance of the tee shot. I think it's fair to say that beyond the likes of Hogan -- Trevino rates on the very, very short list of ultimate shotmakers.

Mike, the issue is not being able to hit the ball straight -- today's clubs practically guarantee it when linked with today's golf balls. Getting the ball to move one way or the other -- ON COMMAND -- is a far different situation and one few players can handle. Mike, think of the 13th at ANGC -- no doubt being straight is fine -- you just won't get to the green in two blows most of the time. The key is shaping the shot with enough bend -- but not too much -- in order to be in position to get there in two shots. Shaping a shot from right-to-left to fit that spot is no e-z deal as many players can easily pull it further towards the creek and woods on that side.

Mike, to help with your confusion -- I am not saying that straight should not provide for a reward -- I just believe that given the distance one can hit it today -- that shaping the tee shot puts another element into play for such players to consider. Architects who design with that in mind -- are making sure that naked power for power sakes is not sufficient alone.

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