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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2021, 04:25:18 AM »
I am reminded of the Yes Minister discussion of the 'British sausage' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpNY2KfF92k
Where are the equivalents of Jim Hacker, Humphrey Appleby and the European Commissioner in this 'links' issue? :)
atb
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 08:47:06 AM by Thomas Dai »

Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2021, 08:44:40 AM »
My opinion has changed over time but I try to keep it simple:  If it rains and there is no mud, it's links. If it rains and you still find yourself forced to play bump and run shots, it's links.  It's all about firmness.


As for courses that fit my definition that I have played in the US, I would consider Bandon, Pac Dunes, and OM links.  I have never played Bandon Trails or Sheep Ranch in wet conditions so I can't say for sure but they probably play firm when wet.


I also thought Sand Valley was very linksy.  I played it once in horrible rain and it remained firm.  BN played very firm in summer.


My only time at Chambers Bay was in February and it could not have been further from playing linksy.


I'm curious to know how Lido will play when it opens.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 11:47:26 AM by Steve Salmen »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2021, 10:53:32 AM »
My opinion has changed over time but I try to keep it simple:  If it rains and there is no mud, it's links. If it rains and you still find yourself forced to play bump and run shots, it's links.  It's all about the sand.


As for courses that fit my definition that I have played in the US, I would consider Bandon, Pac Dunes, and OM links.  I have never played Bandon Trails or Sheep Ranch in wet conditions so I can't say for sure but they probably play firm when wet.


I also thought Sand Valley was very linksy.  I played it once in horrible rain and it remained firm.  BN played very firm in summer.


My only time at Chambers Bay was in February and it could not have been further from playing linksy.


I'm curious to know how Lido will play when it opens.


No, no, no!


Just because a course is built on sand does not make it a links.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2021, 11:15:50 AM »
...
Ballyneal and Dismal River I say no. Why don’t we go with Garland’s “Prairie Links” title?

Note that I stole, errrr, borrowed that from Peter P. So perhaps I shouldn't be credited.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2021, 11:48:23 AM »
Thanks.  Changed sand to firmness in previous post.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2021, 12:05:31 PM »

As for those that say that to follow the existing definition or not being able to change it stifles "creativity", I say nonsense. That's like saying Tom Doak was stifling my creativity if he took out an injunction to stop me opening up a GCA practice and calling it Renaissance. Clearly I could still design (absolutely marvellous) golf courses but I wouldn't be deceiving the public in doing so. That's why under European law there are rules for certain products such as champagne so that the public aren't conned into buying some watered down, bastardised version of the real thing.


Niall,

This is where I will certainly disagree.

In my post about beer, the stuff they make everywhere else is still beer.. it follows all the same principles and processes...to a T.  Its just not limited to 3 and only 3 ingredients.

It'd be a bit like trying to mandate that ice cream can only be 3 flavors, Vanilla, Chocolate, and Strawberry.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2021, 12:31:04 PM »
Sean is of course correct when he says the definition of links courses was set more than a century ago. Interestingly they had a similar discussion then when the first golf boom happened and inland courses started popping up.

 


Really?  Can you quote that definition for us?

There is no one, clear, coherent, set in stone definition.  Some definitions claim it must be by the sea, others state it is mainly by the sea.  Many of the attempts to define a "links" are replete with words like "typically," "usually" and "often."  Even Peper and Campbell discuss having to generate their own definition to produce their list.  To show this ambiguity, here is one commonly cited definition that dares to bring into the conversation the thought that a links could be on "parkland:"

The word "links" comes via the Scots language from the Old English word hlinc: "rising ground, ridge" and refers to an area of coastal sand dunes and sometimes to open parkland.

Even on this thread the debate rises as to whether the land in question must have been formed by a receding sea, or if it could be on dunes that were formed by the wind blowing sand away from the sea.  If you determined the latter didn't qualify you'd have to take a good number of courses out of the links category.

The massaging of the term that takes place has one goal, and that is to exclude on technicality.  What is important is the combination of sandy soil and grasses that produces a firm playing surface.  Whether that sand was formed 100,000 years ago or 100 does not matter to me, nor does the continued presence of the body of water that was its genesis.

The rest of the oft-cited criteria are just things that are commonly found in the areas where these firm surfaces are produced, namely wind, dunes and often times the sea. 

When you can find nearly identical playing surfaces on the coast of the North Sea, in the high plains of Nebraska or on Melbourne's sand belt, any attempt to delineate amongst them seems disingenuous.

Sven






"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2021, 12:43:42 PM »
Sven,


If people actually took the time to learn how these areas were formed, it might help. The more definitions people throw out (without full knowledge), the more it opens up others to broaden the term.


You are right - it is not “receding” sea. It is sand deposits and accretion from the sea that are then developed in to dunes by wind movement using specific vegetation as a catalyst. Most of the “experts” that have tried to define links over the years are golf people, not geomorphologists.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2021, 12:46:35 PM »
Thomas Dai may have been on to something with his link (no pun intended).


Have a subset called "British Links" and all bellicism over the use of the word should disappear.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2021, 12:54:47 PM »
Or just call everything else a golf course rather than a links and you’d have the same result.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2021, 12:58:58 PM »
Or just call everything else a golf course rather than a links and you’d have the same result.


Sure, if you insist on being provincial.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2021, 01:04:03 PM »
Or just call everything else a golf course rather than a links and you’d have the same result.


Sure, if you insist on being provincial.


No I insist on calling a links a links. You will note from my posts on the last page that by no means do I limit that to GB&I.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2021, 01:04:10 PM »
Even the term recent is an interesting one.

The earth is approx 4.5 billion years old, so even 100 million years ago when the sea extended into Kansas and Nebraska and left its sand behind...is still relatively recent all things considered.


P.S.  Sven be careful, next they're going to insist that the USGA drop the open from The U.S. Open. ;D

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2021, 02:34:21 AM »
Sven,

Along the lines of your last post, this reminds of how they define and regulate beer in Germany.

"German beer is brewed according to the Reinheitsgebot, which permits only water, hops, and malt as ingredients; and stipulates that beers not exclusively using barley-malt, such as wheat beer, must be top-fermented"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Germany

Safe to say they are a missing out on so so much by limiting their ingredients and methodology to just this.  Their loss....

Pretty disingenuous to put this out there when the rest of the article goes on to specify multiple styles with those ingredients, and a few styles of wheat beer and rye beer. Furthermore, if they want Oranges in their beer they can get some from Belgian monasteries, etc.

Guess we'll have to delineate links styles. Seaside links, prairie links, sound links, etc. ;)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 02:36:15 AM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2021, 02:58:04 AM »
Sven,

Along the lines of your last post, this reminds of how they define and regulate beer in Germany.

"German beer is brewed according to the Reinheitsgebot, which permits only water, hops, and malt as ingredients; and stipulates that beers not exclusively using barley-malt, such as wheat beer, must be top-fermented"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Germany

Safe to say they are a missing out on so so much by limiting their ingredients and methodology to just this.  Their loss....

Pretty disingenuous to put this out there when the rest of the article goes on to specify multiple styles with those ingredients, and a few styles of wheat beer and rye beer. Furthermore, if they want Oranges in their beer they can get some from Belgian monasteries, etc.

Guess we'll have to delineate links styles. Seaside links, prairie links, sound links, etc. ;)
Garland and it appears the most common....... Marketing Links...... a links in marketing only. We know of many of those.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2021, 03:00:31 AM »

Guess we'll have to delineate links styles. Seaside links, prairie links, sound links, etc. ;)
Can we delineate simply perhaps (I doubt it on here  :D ) to say True Links (as described by our across the pond brethren) and an Inland Links?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?
« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2021, 03:44:13 AM »
....... Marketing Links...... a links in marketing only. We know of many of those.
:):):):):)
atb

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