[JC Jones]

For those that have played both - which is more challenging - the greens at Kingsley or Palmetto? 

Kingsley.  Palmetto's difficulty was accentuated by the speed.

I'm not sure what you mean by that but I bet Kingsley's greens were faster.  Palmetto's greens had much more severe slopes combined with some very difficult hole locations.

No chance Kingsley's were faster.  I also disagree re the severity of slopes.  Palmetto's greens ran off just about the whole way around making 4500 sq ft. greens play like 1000 sq. ft. greens.  Different kind of slopes but I think less severe (save a few false fronts) than Kingsley.

[Eric Smith]

John Mayhugh,

Yeah, geometry probably would have been a better choice than algegra, particularly if we make it solid geometry.  But you have to recognize I'm from a time and place where I was taught 'rithmetic instead of math.

You should be proud to be from West Virginia, not use it as a crutch.  Heck, WV produced such great people as Rich Rodriguez and Anthony Gray

I'm pretty sure Anthony is from the great commonwealth of Kentucky.  His family loaded up the truck and moved to Beckley...West Virginia that is...

[JC Jones]

John Mayhugh,

Yeah, geometry probably would have been a better choice than algegra, particularly if we make it solid geometry.  But you have to recognize I'm from a time and place where I was taught 'rithmetic instead of math.

You should be proud to be from West Virginia, not use it as a crutch.  Heck, WV produced such great people as Rich Rodriguez and Anthony Gray

I'm pretty sure Anthony is from the great commonwealth of Kentucky.  His family loaded up the truck and moved to Beckley...West Virginia that is...

I edited your post for you.

[Mark Pritchett]

Of the three Dixie Cup courses which would you characterize as a "first shot" course and which would you label as more of a second shot course? 

[Anthony Gray]

  Actually I am from Kentucky but growd up in West Virgina. Here is a foto of my uncles ..Daryl and Darrell.

 

[Brent Hutto]

Of the three Dixie Cup courses which would you characterize as a "first shot" course and which would you label as more of a second shot course?  

Aiken GC was the most demanding "first shot" course of the three.

Palmetto was the most demanding "second shot" course.

I think under summer conditions and/or different hole locations Camden can become every bit as demanding on the second shots as Palmetto but comparing the two days we played them in the Dixie Cup clearly Palmetto was a stiff challenge.

At Aiken, the closeness of out-of-play or out-of-bounds on most driver tee shots brought multiple lost strokes into play throughout the round. The other two courses let you play safe and/or survive an awful swing with the driver on many holes. And the "first shots" on the Par 3's at Aiken were really something.

P.S. When I am playing "my usual game" I would probably find Aiken the easiest of the three courses. Normally I am short but straight off the tee and hit lots of weak or crooked shots from the fairway, resulting in a steady stream of chip-or-pitch-plus-two-putts bogeys. I was in the opposite mode of duffing off the tee almost every hole at Aiken and it just killed me.

[Mark Pritchett]

Brent,

I think you pretty much nailed it!  Aiken by far is predicated on the placement of the tee shot on most holes and Palmetto is less demanding off the tee, but the second shot needs to be precise.  Camden had elements of both, which may be why I enjoyed it so much.

Mark

[Anthony Gray]

  JC,

  I'm still full from Duke's.


  Anthony

   

[Jason Topp]

Did Doak rate Palmetto in the Confidential Guide? 

[JC Jones]

Did Doak rate Palmetto in the Confidential Guide? 

Good question.  Though if he did, it was before he did work there in 2003 so I wonder how the rating would be affected.

[John Mayhugh]

Did Doak rate Palmetto in the Confidential Guide? 

Gave it a 6.  His words:
Here's a real sleeper of a course not far across the river from Augusta, although you can see from the architectural credits that its quality is no accident.  The property is hilly and there are a couple of weak, goat-hill holes within the routing, but much of MacKenzie's genius in contouring is in evidence around the greens, although the bunkering is unusually subdued.  My favorite holes were the uphill par-4 2nd, with a tough approach, the good two-shot 4th, the long 10th, and above all the short 7th to a shelf of a green that reminded me of Dornoch.  The club is also a treat, a very friendly place once you get to know the members. 

[JC Jones]

Did Doak rate Palmetto in the Confidential Guide? 

Gave it a 6.  His words:
Here's a real sleeper of a course not far across the river from Augusta, although you can see from the architectural credits that its quality is no accident.  The property is hilly and there are a couple of weak, goat-hill holes within the routing, but much of MacKenzie's genius in contouring is in evidence around the greens, although the bunkering is unusually subdued.  My favorite holes were the uphill par-4 2nd, with a tough approach, the good two-shot 4th, the long 10th, and above all the short 7th to a shelf of a green that reminded me of Dornoch.  The club is also a treat, a very friendly place once you get to know the members. 

I believe this is just about (give or take) what I have been saying all along.  Phenomenal greens, routing doesn't measure up to greens (too many "goat-hill" holes, some great holes (I agree the 7th is awesome, I love that hole) and I'd agree with the 6 rating.

Also, even though the bunkers have been re-done, I noticed some inconsistency in style as well as material inside the bunkers.

[Jason Topp]

Did Doak rate Palmetto in the Confidential Guide? 

Gave it a 6.  His words:
Here's a real sleeper of a course not far across the river from Augusta, although you can see from the architectural credits that its quality is no accident.  The property is hilly and there are a couple of weak, goat-hill holes within the routing, but much of MacKenzie's genius in contouring is in evidence around the greens, although the bunkering is unusually subdued.  My favorite holes were the uphill par-4 2nd, with a tough approach, the good two-shot 4th, the long 10th, and above all the short 7th to a shelf of a green that reminded me of Dornoch.  The club is also a treat, a very friendly place once you get to know the members. 

Thanks.  I was thinking 6-7, which would put it on par with the very best in Minneapolis.

[John Mayhugh]

Steve,
Calculus is a good description of the difficulty, though.  

Jason,
I think that putting at Kingsley is a different sort of challenge than at Palmetto.  As Jason mentioned, Palmetto's greens are effectively much smaller.  Lots more interior contours at Kingsley.

Mark,
The penalty for errant tee shots at Palmetto was not as obviously severe as at Aiken.  But I think effectively just as demanding as you just didn't want to be approaching from some angles.

[Mike Hendren]

For those that have played both - which is more challenging - the greens at Kingsley or Palmetto?  

Having had the fantastic fortune of playing both courses this year, the only way I know to answer the question is that there are putts at Palmetto that I was scared to death of - not so at Kingsley.  

I will say that while I did not make many putts at either course, I don't think I've ever enjoyed thinking through putts any more than I did at Palmetto and Crystal Downs this year.  For the first time in over 30 years I felt the golf course rewarded me for judging pace and line and gave me a competitive advantage, even though I lacked the talent to capitalize on it.  I don't recall having many three-putts at either course despite playing bogey golf.  I have evolved into a very inattentive golfer, but both courses insisted that I pay full attention on and around the greens, lest I be exposed as a total klutz.  I liked that - a lot.

Damn I've had a good year.

Mike

[Joe Hancock]

I found the greens at Palmetto to be much more repellent than those at Kingsley. If the greens average 4500 square feet, they play like 1200 square feet....and I'm not good enough to deal with 1200 sq. ft. greens for 18 holes! But I'd try it again in a heartbeat.

Joe

[Mike Hendren]

Joe,

The repelling nature of Palmetto's greens was exacerbated by the dire need to stay below the hole, don't you think?  I often found it better to be a few yards short of the green than actually past the hole.

Mike

[Eric Smith]

I took my grandpa's old acushnet bullseye with me and I must say that other than a short miss or two at the end of my round I had precisely the right weapon to deal with the greens at Palmetto.  For me, the bullseye was just light enough to almost cut a putt into a left to right break while I played the speedy right to left breakers more off of the toe to sort of deaden it.  Made a bunch of good putts and thoroughly enjoyed the greens there.

[JC Jones]

I took my grandpa's old acushnet bullseye with me and I must say that other than a short miss or two at the end of my round I had precisely the right weapon to deal with the greens at Palmetto.  For me, the bullseye was just light enough to almost cut a putt into a left to right break while I played the speedy right to left breakers more off of the toe to sort of deaden it.  Made a bunch of good putts and thoroughly enjoyed the greens there.

That putt you made on #13 was unbelievable. 

[Eric Smith]

Thanks! That was a GREAT match on a terrific golf course.  Was so fortunate to be paired with three first rate gentleman golfers.  I can't thank you guys enough for the great day I had.

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