[cary lichtenstein]

Another thread about the size of dunes prompted me to start this thread.

The 1st time I was in Ireland, I played Ballybunion twice and skipped the Cashen Course, hearing so much bad about it.

Last time I was there, I played the Cashen Course more out of curiosity than anything else and came away very tired but thinking it was very worth playing.

The dunes there are the biggest I have ever seen, it is hard to walk, and it is one difficult venue, but the eye candy is wonderful.

It has me wondering why all the negativity about Cashen. Anyone like it besides me?

[Sean Leary]

Worth playing once. In a cart. With beer. And don't keep score.

[mike_malone]

 Two things about the Cashen course that get me are the walks from green to tee up the dunes and the elevation of the greens. I think this  is particularly a pain because the Old Course is so pleasant to walk and play.

[Paul Jones]

I enjoyed it.  We played it before playing the Old Course and it was a lot of fun.  We did use the Stabbleford? scoring system recommend by the caddie.

[J_ Crisham]

Cary,   I actually enjoy the Cashen course as much as the Old Course at Ballybunion. It is certainly a more difficult test in the wind. Some very tight driving corridors and wicked elevation changes. The par 3's on the Cashen are awesome, the par 5's brutal.  If teh Cashen course were 10 miles down the road it would be hailed as one of the better courses in the SW of Eire. Certainly much prettier with the dunes than Waterville. More strategic than Tralee. Just my opinion,             Jack

[Sean Leary]

How was the course softened? I heard it was a lot more severe before.

[Paul_Turner]

I wish someone had photographed the original 12th, a short, curved, par 4 way up in the dunes.  I guess it might still be recognisable now?

[Greg Ohlendorf]

The piece of property is unbelievable. Just think of what could have been done there. The course is ultimately very forgettable. I's play the Old 100 times before returning to the Cashen.

[Sean_A]

Two things about the Cashen course that get me are the walks from green to tee up the dunes and the elevation of the greens. I think this  is particularly a pain because the Old Course is so pleasant to walk and play.

Mayday

With all the severely elevated greens at RH I would have thought the Cashen was right up your alley. 


The Cashen is a prime example of an attempt to build a target course where wind is prevalent.  It just doesn't work well.  The site is spectacular, but it is far from ideal in terms of golf.

Ciao

[Martin Toal]

Played it many years ago, when still called "The New". Didn't like it at all, thought it was a Mickey Mouse course and undeserving of inclusion in any list of great second courses such as The Valley at Portrush. May have been improved since.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I don't know the reasons for Ballybunion GC choosing RTJ, but it may have been due to their dependency on the US tourist market. RTJ just didn't undertand links golf and Irish weather. I recall that a number of the holes were totally covered in sand during one winter and a number of greens had to be moved. He had been warned about this. His style of bunkers just didn't fit into a rugged links course setting. Many of the bunker edges just crumbled and the bunkers evolved into more natural looking shapes. The concensus appears to be that it's close to unplayable in a strong wind.

I recall Tom Doak mentioning he had some plans of the course, so perhaps there was a possibility of him doing some work there. I don't believe anything came of it. It's a pity, as the site has the capability to have a course to rival the Old course.

Dónal.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ballybunion chose RTJ for the same reasons they also chose Tom Watson to do some work on The Old Course...

Martin Hawtree was recently engaged to make some fairly major alterations to the Cashen... As I understand it, this is currently on hold...

As for the elevated greens that Mike and Sean mention, I'll leave you with this: When Tom Simpson was doing his report on The Old Course, one admittance he made was that he disliked the current 12th hole (long par-3 to a table green) because it was too severe for those not making the putting surface... but that he could do nothing to improve it (at least within the small budget) because of that severity... The New Course is filled with these kind of holes....

[Jim McCann]

I played the Cashen in April 2008 as one of thirteen championship courses that three of us tackled in seven days straight (yes, I know we were foolhardy but we made it, just). One of the other two in my party was a professional who started to laugh a lot after the opening three holes were behind us - I think that about sums up what we thought of the RTJ routing on such a fine piece of dune land! I heard at the time that Martin Hawtree was keen to make changes but these have to be approved by the club before something sensible can be made of the current misfit at Ballybunion. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I played the Cashen in April 2008 as one of thirteen championship courses that three of us tackled in seven days straight (yes, I know we were foolhardy but we made it, just). One of the other two in my party was a professional who started to laugh a lot after the opening three holes were behind us - I think that about sums up what we thought of the RTJ routing on such a fine piece of dune land! I heard at the time that Martin Hawtree was keen to make changes but these have to be approved by the club before something sensible can be made of the current misfit at Ballybunion. 

Let me pose this to you Jim:

Is it really a fine piece of dune-land from a golfing perspective?

[Jim McCann]

As a long-standing links lover, I think ANY piece of natural dune landscape has to be considered a fine proposition for a golf course and the towering sand hills at the Cashen site are certainly worthy of a better layout than the one in place at the moment.   

[Chris Moore]

Played 9 holes at Cashen Course in June 2008.  I have a vague feeling of dislike.  As was customary during the week I played in Ireland, the wind was howling.  Parts of the course could not accommodate the conditions.  One of the greens we hit into, perhaps number 4 or so, was no more than 10-12 paces deep, with an uphill shot downwind.  There was absolutely no place to miss the shot, as the dunes were essentially vertical in front of and behind the green.  That design might work where there is no wind and the greens are soft, but it did not work there.  And I really didn't care about score, it just wasn't any fun to play the hole.  I do remember that I liked the opening hole, particularly the approach, and there was a good 170 yard or so par 3 that played slightly downhill to a tabletop green.  As I'm writing this, I am recalling a number of shots where it was fairway or lost/unplayable ball, with no option in between. Maybe that's what fosters the vague dislike.

Full disclosure:  The wind was blowing so hard that day that even the Old Course at Ballybunion was nearly unplayable for us, a group of decent golfers. 

[mike_malone]

 I'm not sure the dunes structure and available space allows a good 18 hole course on this site. Why not do something innovative like a great 12 course?

[Tom_Doak]

Donal:

I decided not to pursue the job after studying it for a while.  I became convinced that the property is too steep and doesn't allow enough alternatives, and that the routing is really not that bad , particularly if you consider what they had to work with (property and budget-wise).

I do not think the greens and approaches are built suitably for the wind, and certainly the course would benefit if someone would go in and melt them down and make them more receptive and more strategic.  I considered trying to get the job on that basis, but I was held back because Mr. Jones himself told me how proud he was of the course, and I did not want to be the guy who undid his work there, even if I don't agree with him.

I have not seen what Martin Hawtree has proposed but I wish him well with the ghost of Trent.

[Paul_Turner]

There is (or was) a Hawtree plan viewable in pdf form on the internet.  As usual , for Hawtree, a lot of the changes are based on "safety".





 

[Jay Flemma]

anyone have any pix?

[paul cowley]

a fantastic piece of clay....I'd be all over it if there ever was an opening.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I have not seen what Martin Hawtree has proposed but I wish him well with the ghost of Trent.

The plans I saw had eleven new green sites with all of the others significantly increased in size... Most of the existing greens are between 225 and 350m2 so I think that talks for itself... Obvious softening of approaches, a few fairways realigned and widened, a couple of holes with completely new tee sites and a few dunes shaved to increase visibility or built up to assist targets...

[Jud_T]

it's a dogtrack, period...the biggest gap between a destination course and a sister course i've ever seen.  wasting a round here instead of sneaking back out on the main track is like skipping a return invite to dinner at the French Laundry to grab a stale burger from McDonalds' dumpster down the street.  

p.s. if Melvyn would like to walk and carry on the Cashen, I volunteer to video the proceedings....from a cart  

[Reef Wilson]

anyone have any pix?

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33294.0/

[Kirk Gill]

Looks like more mountain course than links course. Of course, the soils are different, but still.........

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