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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2009, 05:04:00 PM »
TomD,

Best reason to Eighty-Six the sprinkler heads!
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2009, 05:14:54 PM »
Joe Hancock stayed at the house one nite last week on way to the Dixie Cup and we spent the day riding golf courses etc.  I was bitching about the "edges and how much money is spent on maintenance today that was never considered just 20 years ago....AND Joe mentioned the pimping of so many supts today.....not to condemn the supt for such but we are coming into times when much of this stuff will be eliminated when it can and in many of the courses where pimping is built into the design...who know what will happen....
Anyway...give me some pimping examples that can go away....Il start.

painted cup edges
bunker irrigation heads
landscaped ball washer complexes
green colored sand for divot fill
walked mowed tee stripes centered on tee and shaded symetrically to the edges
walked mowed approaches
$50 yard bunker sand



I never said labor WASN'T a huge expense, but the majority of examples of "pimping" we could do without didn't involve one bit of labor. And the ones that did. I don't disagree with at all. Let's take your original post for example:

Painted cups- Agreed. Don't do it. Waste of time even if it is 3-mins per hole. Unless you really love the crisp edge all day that Mr. Galea talks about.
Bunker irrigation heads - Saves on handwatering labor time and water costs; initial install = costly, total future labor savings = HUGE (why is this even here? you want bunker edges to turn to dirt? I don't understand)
Landscaped ball washer complexes - If landscaped = only mulch or decomposed granite, this saves the labor of weedeating/trimming. I already saved labor at my course doing this, specifically: Trimming 2x/month =8 hrs/month = 96 hrs/year; ROI on cost of DG = less than 1 year
Green Divot Sand - Agreed. Waste of time.....and money.
Walk mowed tees - Agreed. Purely for aesthetics. Absolutely no need to ever walk mow any tee, unless it's built too small for a triplex then, again, it's a design issue
Walk mowed approaches - Already addressed. I only don't agree where the walk mowing is necessary due to design constraints on using a larger machine.
$50/yard bunker sand - Agreed. Fill them with compost for all I care. They're hazards. Don't hit your ball there.

So if you're going to continue the conversation, give some solid examples of SIGNIFICANT LABOR SAVINGS. I think you'll find that most aren't even things that "pimp" out a golf course at all, but merely involve letting a course get rough around the edges, let grass go off color, and let the quality and height of cut of areas get worse. The majority of labor is spent mowing grass. If you can reduce maintained acerage, slow the growth of the grass down, or other such large scale impacts, then you can talk about savings. Otherwise, my point still stands.....don't keep "investing" in worthless crap and decorations for the course if you want to save money. The initial costs and labor required to maintain the area and the object itself are where significant superfluous dollars can be saved.

BTW Steve, it does no good to talk percentages of total budget, because there is no realistic way to EVER get labor to be a low percentage item. It will always be in the 50+% range even on an extremely efficient golf course. I challange you to tell me the MINIMUM payroll it would take to maintain a regulation 6500 yard 18 hole golf course to such minimal standards that a course could be profitable as a golf course alone (i.e. without pro shop or F&B revenue).

JS,
OK....if you mow fairways 4 times a week...go to three....same with tees....if you rake bunkers every day..go to four times per week....raise the height of fairways 1/16th....edge cartpaths once per year.....place ball washers on cartpath edge on tees where you have ball washers..
grow the grass around al tee complexes but front tees at a much higher height( here in south grow the bermuda to 6-8 inches....
stop the secondary rough cut....no clean up cut on greens except on weekends....and in most places I still think we can handwater problems such as a few bunker edges and save....why....we may only have grass growing 7 months per year and if it rains some of that time etc then it is not a 300 day per year irrigation issue.....NOW all I say above is for the "camry" course that needs to exist and will exist through out the states...there will always be exceptions where the maintenance level will be higher..no problem there for me.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2009, 07:35:42 PM »
how about moving greenside bunkers away from the greens by exactly the width of a riding mower? oh, wait a minute....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2009, 08:14:34 PM »

JS,
OK....if you mow fairways 4 times a week...go to three....same with tees....if you rake bunkers every day..go to four times per week....raise the height of fairways 1/16th....edge cartpaths once per year.....place ball washers on cartpath edge on tees where you have ball washers..
grow the grass around al tee complexes but front tees at a much higher height( here in south grow the bermuda to 6-8 inches....
stop the secondary rough cut....no clean up cut on greens except on weekends....and in most places I still think we can handwater problems such as a few bunker edges and save....why....we may only have grass growing 7 months per year and if it rains some of that time etc then it is not a 300 day per year irrigation issue.....NOW all I say above is for the "camry" course that needs to exist and will exist through out the states...there will always be exceptions where the maintenance level will be higher..no problem there for me.....

Ok Mike....at my course, we mow fairways and tees twice a week. We rake bunkers 4 times a week. Our fairways are mowed at 1/2". We don't edge cartpaths at all. We don't trim around ballwashers anymore. We have low maintenance "natural areas" all over the place. We have no secondary rough cut. We do a clean-up pass on the greens 4x a week. I have two employees FULLY dedicated (40hrs/week) to handwatering 5 months out of the year ALONG with a multi-million dollar irrigation system because ryegrass will become dirt if maintained any othe way when it's 100+ for a week at a time. And look at the link to my blog and see if you think we're a "camry" course. We're the second highest charging daily fee golf course in the area. I have a crew of 10 including myself and a mechanic (no assistant). Any more ideas on where I can make savings? (I'm asking seriously because they're cutting our budgets 2-3x a year).

http://ergcm.blogspot.com
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2009, 08:26:36 PM »

JS,
OK....if you mow fairways 4 times a week...go to three....same with tees....if you rake bunkers every day..go to four times per week....raise the height of fairways 1/16th....edge cartpaths once per year.....place ball washers on cartpath edge on tees where you have ball washers..
grow the grass around al tee complexes but front tees at a much higher height( here in south grow the bermuda to 6-8 inches....
stop the secondary rough cut....no clean up cut on greens except on weekends....and in most places I still think we can handwater problems such as a few bunker edges and save....why....we may only have grass growing 7 months per year and if it rains some of that time etc then it is not a 300 day per year irrigation issue.....NOW all I say above is for the "camry" course that needs to exist and will exist through out the states...there will always be exceptions where the maintenance level will be higher..no problem there for me.....

Ok Mike....at my course, we mow fairways and tees twice a week. We rake bunkers 4 times a week. Our fairways are mowed at 1/2". We don't edge cartpaths at all. We don't trim around ballwashers anymore. We have low maintenance "natural areas" all over the place. We have no secondary rough cut. We do a clean-up pass on the greens 4x a week. I have two employees FULLY dedicated (40hrs/week) to handwatering 5 months out of the year ALONG with a multi-million dollar irrigation system because ryegrass will become dirt if maintained any othe way when it's 100+ for a week at a time. And look at the link to my blog and see if you think we're a "camry" course. We're the second highest charging daily fee golf course in the area. I have a crew of 10 including myself and a mechanic (no assistant). Any more ideas on where I can make savings? (I'm asking seriously because they're cutting our budgets 2-3x a year).

http://ergcm.blogspot.com
Jeremy,
I read some of your blog.....congrats on your course.....in no way do I consider "camry" a bad word.....I don't know anything about how to save with your type of grasses...but I think you prove my concern when you say they are cutting your budgets 2-3 times per year....it will keep happening...and I don't know your course but I do think many bunkers will disappear.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2009, 12:10:37 AM »
Thanks for the compliments Mike. I never meant for the conversation to get mean-spirited, so I hope it doesn't come across this way. But I do feel like supers get a bad rap alot....not just here, but in many different circles of conversation. So I'm glad we have this outlet to share and educate as much as possible. That's a big reason I created the blog as well.

I'm not sure about bunkers going away, but I will tell you what's beginning to lack: all perimeter areas are getting little to no water and/or maintenance, weeds are beginning to run rampant, necessary regular handtrimming is not getting done as regular so bunker edges, tight unmowable areas, etc. are always overgrown, and mostly importantly, intensive maintenance and repairs like addiing drainage, changing out contaminated bunker sand, irrigation leaks, regular and frequent thatch management, cleaning up of landscape beds and hardscape trash around the clubhouse and entrance....all these things are falling farther and farther down my list of "to-do's" and though not readily apparant at the moment will definetely start showing their long-term effects in the next few years. We're literally down to bare-bones mow and blow maintenance and I feel many other courses across the nation are in a similar situation. Trust me when I say the fat is being cut, heavily, or it was a long time ago. Which is why I STRONGLY urge any new design and construction to try and think harder and longer about getting things right from a low-maintenance standpoint in order to avoid creating unsustainable products and business models for the future.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2009, 03:03:53 AM »
Mike:

For that matter, I'm pretty sure that Muirfield (Scotland) still has no automatic greens irrigation ... just quick couplers.

They just figure it is less likely that the superintendent or an assistant will over-water the greens if they have to stand there and do it themselves!

Tom

Yepper.  I never totally trust a guy with his finger on the button of expensive equipment - the urge to use it must be over-whelming, otherwise, why have expensive equipment?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2009, 08:21:15 AM »

JS,
OK....if you mow fairways 4 times a week...go to three....same with tees....if you rake bunkers every day..go to four times per week....raise the height of fairways 1/16th....edge cartpaths once per year.....place ball washers on cartpath edge on tees where you have ball washers..
grow the grass around al tee complexes but front tees at a much higher height( here in south grow the bermuda to 6-8 inches....
stop the secondary rough cut....no clean up cut on greens except on weekends....and in most places I still think we can handwater problems such as a few bunker edges and save....why....we may only have grass growing 7 months per year and if it rains some of that time etc then it is not a 300 day per year irrigation issue.....NOW all I say above is for the "camry" course that needs to exist and will exist through out the states...there will always be exceptions where the maintenance level will be higher..no problem there for me.....

Ok Mike....at my course, we mow fairways and tees twice a week. We rake bunkers 4 times a week. Our fairways are mowed at 1/2". We don't edge cartpaths at all. We don't trim around ballwashers anymore. We have low maintenance "natural areas" all over the place. We have no secondary rough cut. We do a clean-up pass on the greens 4x a week. I have two employees FULLY dedicated (40hrs/week) to handwatering 5 months out of the year ALONG with a multi-million dollar irrigation system because ryegrass will become dirt if maintained any othe way when it's 100+ for a week at a time. And look at the link to my blog and see if you think we're a "camry" course. We're the second highest charging daily fee golf course in the area. I have a crew of 10 including myself and a mechanic (no assistant). Any more ideas on where I can make savings? (I'm asking seriously because they're cutting our budgets 2-3x a year).

http://ergcm.blogspot.com
Jeremy,
I read some of your blog.....congrats on your course.....in no way do I consider "camry" a bad word.....I don't know anything about how to save with your type of grasses...but I think you prove my concern when you say they are cutting your budgets 2-3 times per year....it will keep happening...and I don't know your course but I do think many bunkers will disappear.....

Jeremy,
  I find myself reading your blog about once a week. I've enjoyed it some much that I've set up a blog for our membership at Pine Tree-http://pinetreegm.blogspot.com/

Upon reading the posting and comments here, every superintendent is instructed by its membership. If a membership wants perfectly edged bunkers, walk mowed tees and approaches and are willing to pay the extra $$, they will. If they want flowers around their tees signs, that's what they will get. Many posters have to be careful what they say regarding this because MANY of the top clubs in America, the clubs that are hallowed in our minds, do many of the things despised on this thread.
   Merion has bunker irrigation-how else do you think that they would be able to get those bunker faces so think? They also walk mow tees and approaches, as do MANY, MANY high end courses that we love here-Oakmont, Winged Foot, Oakland Hills, Aronimink, Quaker Ridge, Friars Head and even NGLA. Would some of you turn down the invitation to play those courses because of this? I highly doubt it…Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and much of the hand mowing, hand raking of bunkers mentioned in this thread is actually better for the turfgrass and better for the longevity of the bunkers.

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 10:29:27 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2009, 09:54:32 AM »
Mike:

For that matter, I'm pretty sure that Muirfield (Scotland) still has no automatic greens irrigation ... just quick couplers.

They just figure it is less likely that the superintendent or an assistant will over-water the greens if they have to stand there and do it themselves!

Tom

Yepper.  I never totally trust a guy with his finger on the button of expensive equipment - the urge to use it must be over-whelming, otherwise, why have expensive equipment?

Ciao

Sean:

One of the problems with installing an expensive new irrigation system on an old course is that the members then expect the course to be perfectly green for the rest of time ... they just paid so much for that new system that you can't tell them the objective was to use it LESS.

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2009, 09:59:37 AM »
Tony,

Glad you like the blog. And I agree whole-heartedly with your post. However.....it's funny.....while I agree with what you say and used to think exactly like that, I am beginning to have my eyes opened by working here at this public course after a history of working at higher-end private courses like you mentioned. And I can honestly say that there is definetely the opportunity for money to be saved at some of those properties. There is definetely money that is literally being wasted there. Sometimes it's hard to realize something us supers or the golfers think is SOOOO important until you are forced to do away with it....then you realize you don't even notice the difference. I know supers at courses where membership is $100K+ and there's a waiting list a mile long, yet they triplex mow tees and approaches and take very minimalistic approaches to their bunker maintenance. I know a super who constantly tries to find the most economical way to complete course projects, even though he could probably be granted any sum he requested because the membership can afford it and they trust him. Heck, I've visited Cypress Point when they've had moderate disease on every one of their greens. But they don't spray because the super has educated the members to have tolerance so as not to have to waste money on expensive chemicals unless it's absolutely necessary.

The people who often value the savings of money the most are usually those who have the most of it, like those private members. Just because the money CAN be spent doesn't always mean it should be.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2009, 10:02:09 AM »
Mike:

For that matter, I'm pretty sure that Muirfield (Scotland) still has no automatic greens irrigation ... just quick couplers.

They just figure it is less likely that the superintendent or an assistant will over-water the greens if they have to stand there and do it themselves!

Tom

Yepper.  I never totally trust a guy with his finger on the button of expensive equipment - the urge to use it must be over-whelming, otherwise, why have expensive equipment?

Ciao

Sean:

One of the problems with installing an expensive new irrigation system on an old course is that the members then expect the course to be perfectly green for the rest of time ... they just paid so much for that new system that you can't tell them the objective was to use it LESS.

Tom,
  When you designed and built Ballyneal, what sort of irrigation was installed? I mean, where they're back to back heads on greens? Maybe triple row in the fairways? Obviously, the use of water at GROW IN for golf course is much different than day to day use. I'm curious if there was alot of considerations made because of wind. Thanks

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #61 on: November 13, 2009, 01:38:19 PM »
Tony:

You are certainly right that the needs of grow-in often have a big impact on the irrigation design for a new course ... especially somewhere like the sand hills where anything that isn't solid turf is susceptible to violent wind erosion.

The irrigation system for Ballyneal was designed by Larry Rodgers, but it's a pretty simple system, really.  The greens and fairways and tees are (basically) all the same grass and all the same soils, so they have the same water requirements ... the only reason to have dual heads in some areas around greens was where a full circle on the green would throw too far into native off the green, which is maybe 30-50% of the greenside heads.

The heads were a bit more tightly spaced than some other courses because of the wind factor, but we did not go down to 50 feet or anything like that ... we were on a budget, and we were confident that the grass types could withstand a day or two of drought when the wind made it impossible to irrigate evenly.  The real key was coming up with a "feathered" edge where the holes bleed out into the native grasses, so that when the wind turns, you aren't irrigating a ton of native grass and turning the edge of the rough into a jungle.  That sort of approach needs a lot of flexibility and adjustment in the first 2-3 years, and the superintendent has to have the authority to roll with the punches and adjust the lines based on what is getting water and what isn't, but with the feathered edge he has a lot more leeway to make changes without it being obvious.

Still, if you ask Rupert [our client], who had a lot of experience as a farmer before his experience at golf, he would tell you that the system he's got is still overdesigned, and if he ever builds that second course he will insist on some different approaches that most golf irrigation designers would say are crazy.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 01:40:01 PM by Tom_Doak »

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2009, 02:34:11 PM »


Tom

Yepper.  I never totally trust a guy with his finger on the button of expensive equipment - the urge to use it must be over-whelming, otherwise, why have expensive equipment?

Ciao

Sean, all the time you've been on here, that's the first comment I've seen that I thought was an over-generalization and sort of dumb.  Our superintendent is the ONLY person that touches the button, because, using the new system, he can water a lot less, and told us that he doesn't want any of the younger folk to get nervous and overdo it.  With the old single row system, we'd still be drenching some areas to keep the rest alive. 
That was one hellacious beaver.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2009, 02:47:06 PM »
Jeff:

I know Sam Mackenzie really well and, in fact, I recommended him for the job there at Olympia Fields.  He's a veteran superintendent who is less likely than most to turn on the water just because it's the easy thing to do.

But a lot of superintendents are more like those assistants he doesn't trust.

And, you should ask Sam if he would share the annual irrigation numbers from the five years before the new system, and the number today.  A new system enables you to use less water per acre, but all too often they take the savings and water a much wider area, so the total water used is the same (or even more).  In fact more than one superintendent has told me he's afraid to water less because if they are limited to 30% or 50% usage in a drought year, they don't want to compute their allotment from a new, smaller number.  [The politically correct way to do that is to approach the town BEFORE you put in a new system, so they'll give you some credit for the water you have already saved.]

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2009, 02:54:50 PM »
dumb question from a treehouse novice,

are there any courses in the u.k. or elsewhere where the only watering needed is handwatering of the greens?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2009, 04:59:01 AM »


Tom

Yepper.  I never totally trust a guy with his finger on the button of expensive equipment - the urge to use it must be over-whelming, otherwise, why have expensive equipment?

Ciao

Sean, all the time you've been on here, that's the first comment I've seen that I thought was an over-generalization and sort of dumb.  Our superintendent is the ONLY person that touches the button, because, using the new system, he can water a lot less, and told us that he doesn't want any of the younger folk to get nervous and overdo it.  With the old single row system, we'd still be drenching some areas to keep the rest alive.  

Jeff

I should have qualified my comments.  Its not really the super I don't trust, its the perceived and actual expectations which the super has to abide by which I don't trust.  Often times there isn't a unified message sent by the membership.  The super is often in a no-win position and he will likely err on the side of green rather than brown if he doesn't have a clear green light from the membership.  While I think budgeting and the budgeting issues are very important, any move to drastically alter the conditions of a course has to be for playability reasons first and budgetary reasons second.  That means the membership must be on board.  The potential savings is the icing on the cake.  Even if savings was the prime goal for the changes the changes shouldn't be sold that way unless the club is obviously in dire financial shape - at which point the discussions about changes are too late!

I have heard about great watering systems all my life.  It seems the next great system is always the answer when in truth, the membership has all the answers if somebody asks the right questions.  

Jud

There aren't many left, but when you come across them the difference between these and watered links is tremendous.  The unwatered links almost without fail play much faster than the watered links.  There is a lot of talk these days of cutting back on water and feed for links (and heathland courses), but there is still a ways to go.   

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 06:30:17 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2009, 06:07:05 AM »
dumb question from a treehouse novice,

are there any courses in the u.k. or elsewhere where the only watering needed is handwatering of the greens?

Jud see Tom Doak's comment re Muirfield above.  I am also pretty sure thats the case with Littlestone where the recent Buda cup was played. That part of Kent is by some way the driest in GB&I and the club accepts things are going to get Firm & Fiery in a hot sumer.

Many lesser know courses are thriving on it.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2009, 08:12:58 AM »
Tony:

You are certainly right that the needs of grow-in often have a big impact on the irrigation design for a new course ... especially somewhere like the sand hills where anything that isn't solid turf is susceptible to violent wind erosion.

The irrigation system for Ballyneal was designed by Larry Rodgers, but it's a pretty simple system, really.  The greens and fairways and tees are (basically) all the same grass and all the same soils, so they have the same water requirements ... the only reason to have dual heads in some areas around greens was where a full circle on the green would throw too far into native off the green, which is maybe 30-50% of the greenside heads.

The heads were a bit more tightly spaced than some other courses because of the wind factor, but we did not go down to 50 feet or anything like that ... we were on a budget, and we were confident that the grass types could withstand a day or two of drought when the wind made it impossible to irrigate evenly.  The real key was coming up with a "feathered" edge where the holes bleed out into the native grasses, so that when the wind turns, you aren't irrigating a ton of native grass and turning the edge of the rough into a jungle.  That sort of approach needs a lot of flexibility and adjustment in the first 2-3 years, and the superintendent has to have the authority to roll with the punches and adjust the lines based on what is getting water and what isn't, but with the feathered edge he has a lot more leeway to make changes without it being obvious.

Still, if you ask Rupert [our client], who had a lot of experience as a farmer before his experience at golf, he would tell you that the system he's got is still overdesigned, and if he ever builds that second course he will insist on some different approaches that most golf irrigation designers would say are crazy.

Tom,
  Do you recall if the irrigation heads that were used had nozzels that shot lower to the gound, thus minimizing the amount the wind could effect the throw? We we renovated at Colonial last summer, we installed low angle nozzels for our surrounds so they would throw under that fans that surrounded the green.

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2009, 08:32:59 AM »

Would someone please define in normal English what ‘pimping’ means?

I keep getting this thought of prostituting your course, anything goes sort of thing, so please explain pimping as I do not consider it to be an attractive way to discuss course maintenance. 

I know we dress up many of our modern courses but come on ‘Pimping’ its sound so derogatory and I don’t see courses in this way. I suppose it is like using the word, cart path to me, you are nearly swearing at me. ;)

Melvyn

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2009, 09:13:34 AM »

Would someone please define in normal English what ‘pimping’ means?

I keep getting this thought of prostituting your course, anything goes sort of thing, so please explain pimping as I do not consider it to be an attractive way to discuss course maintenance. 

I know we dress up many of our modern courses but come on ‘Pimping’ its sound so derogatory and I don’t see courses in this way. I suppose it is like using the word, cart path to me, you are nearly swearing at me. ;)

Melvyn


Melvyn,
Maybe this will help...check out a few...

http://www.mtv.com/shows/pimp_my_ride/season_5/series.jhtml
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2009, 10:55:46 AM »
Anthony:  Yes, we've used a lot of those low-angle nozzles at some of our courses in windy climates.

Tony M:  Muirfield actually does have a fairway irrigation system ... all of the Open Championship courses do, after the R & A got concerned about the possibility of "unfair" conditions like Troon in 1962.  I have never actually seen the sprinklers at Muirfield in operation, though.  The only American course I know of with no fairway irrigation is Maidstone; Fishers Island has it only in a handful of severe areas I think.

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2009, 01:30:38 PM »
I thought Newport CC was devoid of fairway irrigation. Is this not correct?

Anthony:  Yes, we've used a lot of those low-angle nozzles at some of our courses in windy climates.

Tony M:  Muirfield actually does have a fairway irrigation system ... all of the Open Championship courses do, after the R & A got concerned about the possibility of "unfair" conditions like Troon in 1962.  I have never actually seen the sprinklers at Muirfield in operation, though.  The only American course I know of with no fairway irrigation is Maidstone; Fishers Island has it only in a handful of severe areas I think.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Jeff Goldman

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Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2009, 06:00:02 PM »
Jeff:

I know Sam Mackenzie really well and, in fact, I recommended him for the job there at Olympia Fields.  He's a veteran superintendent who is less likely than most to turn on the water just because it's the easy thing to do.

But a lot of superintendents are more like those assistants he doesn't trust.

And, you should ask Sam if he would share the annual irrigation numbers from the five years before the new system, and the number today.  A new system enables you to use less water per acre, but all too often they take the savings and water a much wider area, so the total water used is the same (or even more).  In fact more than one superintendent has told me he's afraid to water less because if they are limited to 30% or 50% usage in a drought year, they don't want to compute their allotment from a new, smaller number.  [The politically correct way to do that is to approach the town BEFORE you put in a new system, so they'll give you some credit for the water you have already saved.]

Tom,

I'll ask.  This year (the first full season with the new system) the numbers are skewed because of a very mild summer with almost no really hot days, but my recollection is that we are down on the South Course something like 45% from the old system.  I don't know how much of that is a result of the greater control the new system gives him, the weather, having more bent grass in the fairways, and Sam modifying prior practices.  As I've told on this site a number of times, we don't think the membership would react well to browning out the course, so we don't.  We did a "brown is beautiful" dog and pony show for the grounds committee during the South Course renovation, which, as Sam predicted, didn't go down very well, so the best he shoots for is "firm as possible while keeping it somewhat green."  I think Sam does believe pretty strongly that the new system allows him to keep the course firmer, especially down the middle of the fairway.
That was one hellacious beaver.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #73 on: November 14, 2009, 06:59:51 PM »
No doubt, if you had a two-row system before (pretty standard from 15-20 years ago), the middle of the fairways was probably a swamp so you could keep the edges green.  Going to 3 rows is a great advancement there.  But if the three rows are all full circles, you're watering an extra 60 feet wide ... that's where the "savings" of water often get spent.

Jeff Goldman

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Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #74 on: November 14, 2009, 07:39:50 PM »
Swing and a miss Tom -- basically one row, with a nice mix of historic heads and head-brands and lots and lots of hand watering (there was lots of poa annua out there then and may well be again at some point).  I'm told that with proper design, spacing etc. and single head control, there's less water used, even with the extra feet from the full circle heads.  
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 11:36:07 PM by Jeff Goldman »
That was one hellacious beaver.

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