News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Patrick_Mucci

Defeating, or Freezing distance
« on: April 10, 2002, 02:38:37 AM »
It has been said that through improved technology, which doesn't seem like it will stop, that the distances players are hitting the ball, is rendering architectural features and hole design obsolete.

Predictions of driving the ball 400 yards, once thought of as ludicrous, are not so far fetched anymore.

In light of the potential cost of litigation over balls and implements, might a simpler, INITIAL solution for many clubs be the installation of some cross bunkers on some holes ?

Opponents might say it isn't fair to take the driver out of the players hands, but when drivers start hitting the ball 350 to
400 yards, is it the same thing.

Some early architects had top shot bunkers to catch the poorly hit shot, usually from the high handicapper.  What is wrong with dictating that a tee shot shall not go beyond a certain point.

The 8th and 15th hole at GCGC are perfect examples of a limiting cross bunker, though I suspect that Daly, Tiger and a few others might fly # 15 under the right conditions.  What is wrong with dictating where the next shot should be played from ?

TEPaul, if you tell me it's formulaic, you get no dessert !
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2002, 05:26:52 AM »
Pat:

I don't call that suggestion "formulaic" at all, unless you recommended it be done completely "consistently" on hole after hole which could, in fact, then become a "formulaic" design element or philosophy.

But I think the idea is a very good one and is one we've talked about before on here as to interesting ways to rein in long hitters somehow. The only real criticism of the idea that I can see is that it does take the driver out of a long hitter's hand and some golfers seem to think that's a bad idea for a course's design.

I don't happen to share that belief particularly if it's done in certain interesting ways. I don't really believe a great design should ever "dictate" (a word you used in your post) anything in particular to any golfer!

So instead of just placing cross bunkers out there at some particular distance like 300yd (as you might suggest) to completely "rein in" and dictate to a long hitter by making him hit it to a certain spot (with another club) the more ideal way, in my opinion, is to just reverse the fairly traditional design philosophy of most courses by "narrowing down" or "complicating" areas way out in a long hitter's drive range to make him combine both distance and accuracy to select the option of the driver. As you can imagine many courses and their designs are such (certainly many of the older classics) that the long hitter often has to dealt with architectural features only at a certain distance and once past or over them is generally "out in the clear" so to speak. It seemed that was the circumstance for a golfer like Tiger or Daly at TOC, for example.

Apparently this very idea is one that Steve Smyers has recommended, talked much about, and has been experimenting with in his designs as a way of dealing with the very long hitters and the increases in technology (which he's very concerned about)! Exactly how he's been doing this is obviously something that should be discussed in the context of this topic and suggestion of yours, which is a good and interesting one, provided you don't recommend that it be done so consistently that it becomes "formulaic"!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2002, 06:16:58 AM »
Pat,
A cross bunker out in the range you speak of could serve the dual purpose of making the biggest hitters think twice about challenging it and shorter hitters would face the same challenge for their second shots.  
Clubs could also, and cheaply, experiment with letting the grass grow in bomber land. I don't mean extreme growth either, just enough to encourage fliers and steeper swings. This is less expensive and easily reversible if the desired effect is not attained.

      
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2002, 06:18:50 AM »
Pat -

I don't think it's a bad idea either.  I'm not sure there are good alternatives, other than new equipment rules.

But by taking this approach, are we starting to sound like RTJ when he was asked by the USGA to toughen up Golden Age courses after WWII?
  
Are we headed towards recommending the same kind of "pinched" landing areas that RTJ built for Oakland Hills and other of his monster courses in the early 1950's?
  
Are we going through another time when traditional course lengths have become obsolete and the main focus becomes toughening them up and resistance to scoring?

I think the answer to all of those questions is probably yes.

My sense is that we are at an architectural cross roads.  I first had the thought at the Atlanta Athletic Club last summer when it occurred to me that it was a horrible course, representing everything I disliked in modern gca, but that it worked beautifully for the pro game today.

My hope is that younger architects come up with better solutions to the distance problem than RTJ did at Oakland Hills or than his son did at the Atlanta Athletic Club.  

Because if they don't, I worry we will enter another Dark Age for golf course design.

Bob

 

      

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert_Walker

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2002, 06:42:07 AM »
How much farther are the pros hitting the ball this year?
Just Curious.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Cirba

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2002, 07:22:28 AM »
Robert Walker;

PLEASE tell me you aren't still contending that there haven't been staggering changes in distance the pros hit the ball over the past 15 years?!

Last night, I watched a replay of the 1986 Masters.  It was stunning to see players coming into 18 with 4-irons and 6-irons in light of Woods and Mickelson's little pitches last year.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2002, 07:32:00 AM »
Mike - as an aside - and Darren Kilfara will love this if he sees it:  I've now watched the highlight tape of the 1986 Masters FOUR times in the last week.  It's been on TGC at least twice, and I pulled out my own tape twice.  The ultimate kicker was last night:  in the 5th inning of a tense Dodger-Giant game, I flipped through channels between innings, came upon this, and didn't get back to the baseball until the 7th.  This after already watching three other times!  If that's not at the very least the most "incredible" Masters ever, than I'm Tiger Woods.

I have to say also the commentary of Jim Nantz and Tom Weiskopf as Jack prepares to hit his tee shot on 16 has got to be up there in the all-time annals of golf commentary.  It's absolutely spine-tingling the way Nantz sets it up and Weiskopf slams it home, after his self-deprecating joke "if I knew what he was thinking I'd have won this championship"... he goes on, as Jack re-tees, and right as he's about to hit the ball comes up with: "make the swing you are capable of making... head down, accelerate through.. your destiny is right here."

Jeez, I'm getting goosebumps typing that!

Sorry, I saw 1986 Masters mentioned and I couldn't resist.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Cirba

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2002, 07:39:13 AM »
Tom Huckaby;

Ok..now I have goosebumps from just reading your account!!

Yes, I have the tape too.  Jack was my hero from the age of 13.

From what I understand, he's also becoming a better golf course architect these days, by some accounts on here.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2002, 07:42:14 AM »
Mike, it's funny how addictive that tape is.  They play it pretty much year-round on TGC, but particularly in the last two weeks it's been on a lot.  I can't start watching it and not see it through... Every single time I keep thinking no, he can't really WIN this... Silly, I know.  But damn the goosebumps keep coming also.

As for JN as an architect, if one is to judge by the new Mayacama out here in CA, he has come a LONG way.  That course is brilliant.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2002, 07:48:16 AM »
It's interesting what Bob Crosby says and his remarks about possibly entering an new era that might not be the best kind like the era brought on by RTJ (and maybe Joe Dye, the USGA, Open set-up mentaility etc) of basically combining both length and narrowness in architecture. RTJ certainly added tons of length to architecture generally but he also had a consistent design philosophy of bunkering up both sides of landing areas--something that was rarely done in classic, strategic "Golden Age" architecture! What he did, in fact, is sort of narrow things down generally and "center-direct" everything!

So I certainly understand what Bob is saying and why he's concerned. Certainly architects today are struggling to find some reasonable architectural solutions to deal with the architectural problems brought on by all this increased distance the ball is being hit today.

In a very general sense maybe the way to do it is to combine increased distance and the placement of features such as bunkering out at increased distances not with just consistent narrowness and the ever prevalent flanking feature placement, as RTJ did, but to combine features in random placement and at random distances (to very much deal with a long hitter's driver too) with not just narrowness but with a combination of narrowness and WIDTH! Width and narrowness of short grass, in other words!

Think about it! If you did this there should be all kinds of ways (options and strategies) for a long hitter (even with his driver) to deal with these features with narrowing and widening short grass around them depending on varying risk/reward aspects of both distance and accuracy but much less consistently designed (randomly in other words).

Theoretically, in this way it would seem that a long hitter could still use his driver but with interesting accuracy risks and demands coupled with it. And for the shorter hitters these same features could come into play in the same way for their second shots and so forth.

One of the real problems with RTJ was not just the increased distances of his courses and holes but that he did that with some very consistent narrowness too! It seems a real solution could be to return to interesting combinations of feature placement but also to return to narrowness combined with some real width of short grass here and there! This was not much done by RTJ, but it could be an interesting solution or at least and interesting compromise now!

In this question and topic that Pat has suggested here, it seems to me the absolute best course to analyze is Pine Valley itself. The reason is it has a ton of "cross features" and also a ton of width too in certain areas! But the most interesting thing to look into at Pine Valley is what exactly is in and around those cross features and what the height of the grass is too in and around those cross features! I will go through a number of Pine Valley's holes and talk about how changing the height of the grass in these particular areas might just make a world of difference to the long hitter and help explain a bit about what I'm trying to say here with real examples!

I say this because yesterday I saw how a really longer hitter dealt with these areas and how he might have done it differently. However, even with a change in the height of the grass in these areas he may NOT have done anything different, and the reason for that is one I hope to remark on in the really interesting "13 AUGUSTA" topic!

Maybe a good analogy to think of is a lot of designers are adding a ton of tee length to holes like ANGC's #13 but because of the complexities of how tee shots relate to second shots, or next shots, they are not really able to keep the original strategies in place anyway. Most of the reason for this is the uniqueness in the way the overall holes are designed and set up to relate tee shots to second shots--where all their many features happen to be in relation to one another, in other words.

It's a bit like stretching only the first half of a rubber band without being able to stretch the second half of it too and all the unfortunate architectural and strategic meaning of that! Stretching the second half of the rubber band is probably possible, of course, with even a hole like #13 ANGC but then what have you done? You actually have moved the green fifty yards out too (as Whitten suggested) and how unfortunate and horrible is that to contemplate?

You could do that but you would have to move Rae's Creek fifty yards out with the green too, to keep it where it needs to be in the central strategy of that hole.

With ANGC and its incredible wallet I'm sure that anything could be done, even moving Rae's Creek too, but my God that would be something pretty amazing to contemplate.

If they could do it they do have the right man there to do it--Tom Fazio! Just think about it, he could actually redesign the entire landscape (all of it) so all the features could be in the same relative position to each other and also the drive to the second shot would be relatively the same for the new long hitter and the clubs he used on either shot in the same relationship to the way the older players played it. Maybe the nuancy little psychology of the hole could be maintained as well.

Think about it--it could be the same hole only its rubber band would be stretched equally from both ends. Theoretically that might keep everything the same as it used to be!! It would even look the same only its overall dimensions would be much larger. Same exact hole, only instead of 485 overall it would be about 560 overall!

Whoops--there's a problem. It could be done probably, but only in a vacuum! What about the routing itself?? It would obviously start to run into or bump into other holes and then you start to get into the real jigsaw puzzle of the routing itself. But what the hell, ANGC is supposed to actually have a lot of real estate generally. So maybe it's possible that Fazio could redesign the entire place, all its real estate, in other words, and have it look basically the same as it always has--just a much bigger course in dimension and scale--but it would look exactly the same!

Anything is probably possible if you have enough real estate and enough money but a better way would be to rein in the golf ball and leave the golf course alone!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert_Walker

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2002, 08:11:12 AM »
Do players swing differently today than they did in 1980?
Yes.
Look at Tom Kite's approach into 18 in the final round at the 1986 Masters. Notice his left heel? Notice his swing. Totally different from today's swing. Today's Tom Kite swing generates much more clubhead speed than it did in 1986! :) :) :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2002, 08:28:01 AM »
Quote
I have to say also the commentary of Jim Nantz and Tom Weiskopf as Jack prepares to hit his tee shot on 16 has got to be up there in the all-time annals of golf commentary.  It's absolutely spine-tingling the way Nantz sets it up and Weiskopf slams it home, after his self-deprecating joke "if I knew what he was thinking I'd have won this championship"... he goes on, as Jack re-tees, and right as he's about to hit the ball comes up with: "make the swing you are capable of making... head down, accelerate through.. your destiny is right here."

Tom - how about the commentary between player and caddie:

After the swing, Nicklaus' caddie, son Jackie, blurts out "Be the right club!"

Nicklaus, bending over to pick up his tee, calmly replies "it is."


That commentary you quoted is awesome. kind of hard to believe that it was Nantz's first Masters broadcast.

but i digress.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2002, 08:42:43 AM »
Sean, the digression is GREAT by me!  But my apologies also to Pat Mucci for hijacking a very worthwhile topic.  Still, I can't resist!

I've heard about that commentary between Jack and Jackie several times... you wanna talk goosebumps?  I've analyzed this tape more than most have the Zapruder film though, and near as I can tell if that did indeed occur (and I have no reason to doubt the story) Jack does it very quietly as he leans down to pick up his tee, as you say.  I only wish I could HEAR him say it!

How about that also?  Doesn't bother watching the ball, knows he can't see it anyway, just ho hum, get my tee, let the crowd tell me if it goes in or not....

Re Nantz, right on - that was some damn good reporting/commentary for a) his first time and b) how young he was.  He starts with "if anyone owns this hole it's Jack Nicklaus.  He birdied it in 1963 on the way to winning his first green jacket.  We all know about the forty-foot putt in 1975 which helped him win another.  And now..."

OK, so my verbatim memory isn't that good.  But that was really, really good set up.  And handing it to Weiskopf as he did... does anyone know, was that Nantz on his own or would Chirkinian have ordered that?

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2002, 09:46:05 AM »
Give us a Competition Ball, and we can stop all of this mad talk about formulaic cross-bunkers and random hazards and spending obscene -- obscene! -- amounts of money to fix unbroken things.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

BV

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2002, 10:46:04 AM »

Quote
Do players swing differently today than they did in 1980?
Yes.
Look at Tom Kite's approach into 18 in the final round at the 1986 Masters. Notice his left heel? Notice his swing. Totally different from today's swing. Today's Tom Kite swing generates much more clubhead speed than it did in 1986! :) :) :)

Roh-Bear......


hahahahhahahhahahahahahaahhaahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaahahhahahahahahahahaahha
hahahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahahaahahhaha


Wanna buy my bridge from SF County to Marin County?  Cheeeeep!


hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahah

You win.  Now, THIS finally convinces me.



Anybody ever notice that new range balls won't go as far as the balls we play now?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BV

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2002, 10:48:05 AM »
This BB confuses me sometimes.  That post came up all bold.  Above post was not intended to be ALL bold, only the word "THIS"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2002, 10:58:16 AM »
BV - you included the whole message within the quote UBB code. that's why it bolded everything.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2002, 10:58:37 AM »
The concept of growing fairway grass into thick rough at say 300 yards to rein the driver reminds me of the 17th at Valderrama in the Ryder Cup - what a joke!  I don't think that was highly regarded - the trouble was all at the green site with the shaved bank feeding great shots back into the water.  Narrowing at 290+makes more sense - then the long driver must also be accurate to take advantage of his length. But closing off the end of the fairway with heavy grass forcing a layup seems awfully contrived.  Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gary Smith (Guest)

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2002, 11:46:17 AM »
Why should a long hitter have to be more accurate than a shorter hitter???

These cross-bunker/pinched fairways ideas have the feel of socialism to me.

The competition ball is the way to go.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2002, 12:33:17 PM »
I'll never understand this idea of changing courses to fit a very small percentage of players' games.

If you want the best players in the world to hit more two-irons, make them hit more two-irons; give them extra-credit for two-iron shots; make them tee off on certain holes with certain clubs; make the final score a combination of shots on the hole and judges scores . . .

Any of these ideas are better than going and changing the course.
Quote
"Don't spend two dollars to dryclean a shirt. Donate it to the Salvation Army instead. They'll clean it and put it on a hanger. Next morning buy it back for seventy-five cents."
 --Billiam Coronel
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2002, 12:53:49 PM »
Tom -

I love your image of "stretching only half of the rubber band."  Good stuff.

The bottom line is that we are at a historic turning point with major tournament venues.  How you toughen them up for the young bombers without sliding back into the RTJ "monster" course set-ups is the trick.  

You might be right about PV.  Maybe lots of cross hazards with plently of room in the landing areas to permit east/west playing options is a solution.   I also like the idea of random bunkering rather than pinching fairway corridors on the RTJ and the USGA models.

I worry - to paraphrase Georges Santayana - that those who fail to learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them.   Because the distance issue is such a threat right now to older courses, we may be on the verge of failing to heed Santayana's warning.  

Bill -

I guess what you are suggesting is precisely the kind of changes that worry me most.  They are ideas that would effectively hold back the longer hitters (that's the good news), but those kind of changes are right out of the RTJ playbook in the early 1950's (that's the bad news).  The popularity of narrowing the playing corridors in the 50's (brought to you by RTJ and our friends at the USGA) had, IMHO, a negative impact on golf course architecture for a couple of decades.

If the major venue courses adopt that approach, it will foster popular perceptions of good golf course architecture that will take Geoff Shackelford and Tom Doak the rest of their lives to overcome. ;)

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2002, 01:12:18 PM »
Dan -

35 players on the Tour today hit their driver farther the the longest driver in 1990.  You can extrapolate from there.  

A whole bunch of players today are hitting it a whole bunch longer than the longest players just 10 years ago.

This in not not an era where you have a George Bayer and a Craig Woods and then everyone else 30 yards behind them.

Everyone is long.  The numbers tell the story.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2002, 01:49:56 PM »
I love some of those recent posts. I like a few of the things Bill McBride said and Gary Smith too about; not liking the fact that some of this reminds him of socialism, particularly the fact of design that makes a long hitter have to be more accurate than a short hitter.

I don't think really good strategic designers actually looked at it quite like that Gary! I think they were just aware of how the game is played or how it is scored and basically involves a variety of different talents and abilities to basically arrive at a similar score in quite different ways! So they just tried to set up the designs to accomodate that fact! This is sort of the reality of what they sometimes called the "tortoise" and the "hare". Sometimes they called different players the Bogeyman and the scratchman and they understood their differing talents could be taken care of by handicapping.

But they also recognized that there were players they considered the "tortoise" and those that they considered the "hare" who were players of the same level "score-wise" so they just designed to accomodate that particular fact. They may have done it with varying problems for each but so what? One just might have had a talent that the other didn't have and vice versa. When you have someone with all the talents and can think really well too then obviously they knew you had a Jones, Hogan, Nelson, Nicklaus and Woods--and that was OK.

I never heard of the old guys getting into anything as ridiculous as "Tiger Proofing", that's for sure, particularly when they would have recognized in an instant that was dumb. Obviously the muck-a-mucks at ANGC didn't with the kind of "Tiger proofing" they were doing which was playing directly into Wood's strength! That fact certainly was never lost on Woods and the fact that he was asked about it about a million times and never even cracked a smile about it says one helluva lot about the kid's competitiveness, but even more about his maturity and brains!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2002, 02:12:11 PM »
Bob:

I think the idea of stretching the rubber band at one end or one half of it is pretty interesting really. It can explain well exactly how in detail a golf hole like a 13th at ANGC can sometimes get strategically unbalanced, disconnected or just lose its strategic ramifications because of it!

There're all kinds of varying examples how this can happen in a variety of strategic ways and cut many ways strategically but one of the things that designers might sometimes forget about and all of us too, is this distance explosion is not just happening on the tees with the driver--it's happening bigtime right through the golf bag! Relatively speaking the distance explosion is probably even greater with the irons than the driver, but everyone concentrates on the driver because that just happens to be the one that goes the farthest overall.

And the iron distance explosion is the very fact that highlights why holes have to have their rubber bands stretched at both ends to stay current strategically. Obvoiusly very few holes really can be stretched at both ends without creating massive problems throughout most courses.

The distance explosion throughout the bag seems to indicate another fact too that does get talked about sometimes which is that irons don't have any "spring like effect", do they? So what does that mean?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gary Smith (Guest)

Re: Defeating, or Freezing distance
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2002, 03:02:42 PM »
TEPaul,

Your words "basically arriving at a similar score in quite different ways" sounds like a pretty damn good definition of socialism to me! Equality of outcome may be the desired goals of some, but is there any room for equality of opportunity? Why should, let's say a Greg Norman, circa 1986, have to always put his 290 yard in a tighter zone than, let's say a Larry Mize, with a 265 yard drive. That to me is what the pinched fairway theory does. Obviously, the longer hitter could scale back with a shorter club to keep up with the shorter hitter, but wouldn't that be limiting his opportunities? Doesn't a "really good strategic designer" keep in mind all the options, even for the hare?

Also, are you sure that the changes ANGC makes are efforts to stop one man? Do you think that is what is on their mind when Hootie and Fazio are walking around ANGC? They have been revising that course going back to the '30s.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back