[Rory Connaughton]

Mike:

  At Portstewart, the only hole that I can think of that has I restrictive landing area is 2 and that restriction is reduced if you don't hit driver.

You have seen my comments re Enniscrone.  What holes there do you see as too restrictive?
What about Carne?

[mike_malone]

  Both Enniscrone and Carne have severe dogleg to the left short fours that leave you screwed if you hit 200 yards straight. Carne's is heading out to the beach with a elevated green; Enniscrone's is , I think, 13/14 ish.

[Rory Connaughton]

I think you are referring to 11 and 12 at Carne.
Funny thing is that the hole you reference at Enniscrone is a Hackett
Mike, you just have to give into temptation on that hole and let it fly over the dunes to the green no?
Actually, as deep as that dell green is, I'm still not convinced that that's not the safest shot since they keep the grass around the dunes in front of that green reasonably short

[mike_malone]

 I just checked; I think it #12 at both courses.

[Sean_A]

Mike:

  At Portstewart, the only hole that I can think of that has I restrictive landing area is 2 and that restriction is reduced if you don't hit driver.

You have seen my comments re Enniscrone.  What holes there do you see as too restrictive?
What about Carne?

Rory

"Too restrictive" is relative and dependent on the wind.  Any hole cutting through dunes is potentially too restrictive in any sort of cross wind. 

We have already talked about Enniscrone and I think practically all the dune holes would be a struggle in a very good wind.  I know Carne has problems to in this regard on the back 9.  Its the nature of large dunes - it is difficult to when so many holes do this. 

There is also another problem large dunes cause - walking.  Large dunes tend to make it difficult to get tees next to greens - not surprising if many of the fairways can't really handle a good wind.  I probably sound very anti-large dunes.  I am not, but they are a double edged sword.  To make them work best they really should be routed down and into wind.  This is problematic for two reasons.  If there are a lot of dune holes, it may get to feel like an out n' back course even if it isn't.  Secondly, it isn't always possible to avoid cross wind holes in this situation without going oer' the top - which may mean chopping some dunes down a bit and still being left with some terrible shots for high cappers.  We have just this problem at Burnham with #10.  Watching the old boys having to take on the carry is sometimes painful. This is one of the few Colt holes where I am not sure he got it right even though I understand what he may have been trying to achieve.

Ciao

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Donal:

  Don't you think that Royal Dublin suffers from the fact that Bull Island is essentially man made and, therefore, even the more subtle dunes and hillocks that evolved over time up the coast at Portmarnock and Portmarnock Links have just not developed?  I think its a testament to the quality of the course that it is as highly regarded as it is considering the limitations on the ground.

Rory:

Yes, you may have a point. The undulations that exist today only had about 50 years to develop. I guess the part of Bull Island had stopped evolving at that stage. It may have taken hundreds or thousands of years to form the links land that exists at Portmarnock and others. I still think the quality of the green sites at Royal Dublin is impressive and probably more so after Hawtree's changes. And there are some high hillocks here and there.

I still feel that we let the beauty and dramatic nature of dunes cloud our opinion when we assess some courses. We forget about strategy and options available and comment on the dramatic setting. If you left that actual holes at Ballybunion as they are, but reduced the dunes to something similar to Ballyliffin or Portmarnock or even Royal Dublin, would Ballybunion be rated as highly? I don't think it would.

[Sean_A]

Donal:

  Don't you think that Royal Dublin suffers from the fact that Bull Island is essentially man made and, therefore, even the more subtle dunes and hillocks that evolved over time up the coast at Portmarnock and Portmarnock Links have just not developed?  I think its a testament to the quality of the course that it is as highly regarded as it is considering the limitations on the ground.

Rory:

Yes, you may have a point. The undulations that exist today only had about 50 years to develop. I guess the part of Bull Island had stopped evolving at that stage. It may have taken hundreds or thousands of years to form the links land that exists at Portmarnock and others. I still think the quality of the green sites at Royal Dublin is impressive and probably more so after Hawtree's changes. And there are some high hillocks here and there.

I still feel that we let the beauty and dramatic nature of dunes cloud our opinion when we assess some courses. We forget about strategy and options available and comment on the dramatic setting. If you left that actual holes at Ballybunion as they are, but reduced the dunes to something similar to Ballyliffin or Portmarnock or even Royal Dublin, would Ballybunion be rated as highly? I don't think it would.

Donal

But the how the dunes are used at Ballybunion is right next to its routing as to why its a world class course.  I never feel constrained going round Ballybunion.  The course also has its share of flattish holes, but unfortunately, much of the strategy is created by bunkering rather than continuing the theme of land forms creating the interest as on the dune holes. 

Portmarnock is a case in point of routing large sections of the course through valley floors - albeit they tend not to be so high.  Combine this with some of the penal bunkering and I find it hard to understand why folks love the course so much.  It is a good course for sure, but Portmarnock doesn't have that quality which really sets it apart - and for me it ahs nothing to do with the size of the dunes.  It is more about how the dunes were used - Portmarnock is a very conservative design on a property that is suitable for some bold design.  I would like to see a bit more daring and that is why I prefer The Island to it. 

Ciao     

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

But the how the dunes are used at Ballybunion is right next to its routing as to why its a world class course.  I never feel constrained going round Ballybunion.  The course also has its share of flattish holes, but unfortunately, much of the strategy is created by bunkering rather than continuing the theme of land forms creating the interest as on the dune holes. 
 

Sean:

It's 24 years since I last played Ballybunion, so my memory may not be crystal clear, but I agree that the dunes are used in the routing on holes like the 7th, 10th, 11th, 16th and 17th. I may be forgetting some other holes. The dunes dictate the routing, and being so high, you cannot play over them, so the holes must lie between them. The dunes are much closer and are an integral part of some of the holes.

What could be done with the flatter 4th and 5t holes at Ballybunion? There isn't much to play with regarding the terrain, so how can the theme of land forms be continued?

Portmarnock is a case in point of routing large sections of the course through valley floors - albeit they tend not to be so high.  Combine this with some of the penal bunkering and I find it hard to understand why folks love the course so much.  It is a good course for sure, but Portmarnock doesn't have that quality which really sets it apart - and for me it ahs nothing to do with the size of the dunes.  It is more about how the dunes were used - Portmarnock is a very conservative design on a property that is suitable for some bold design.  I would like to see a bit more daring and that is why I prefer The Island to it.     

I haven't played the Island, but I've heard that some of these bold features are viewed as peculiar and may be altered. Is it possible for Portmarnock to use the dunes in a better way? Maybe. But, if you use them like the Klondyke and the Dell at Lahinch, the course then is classed at quirky or old fashioned. I guess you'd like to see to see some holes played across ridges/dunes at angles, elevated greens etc.

I am not wildy excited with Portmarnock myself. Some of the holes are quite mundane (1st-3rd). I think one of the reasons why Portmarnock is so respected is that it's regarded as a tough but fair course. Apart from the 5th hole, it's got no blind shots.

Dónal.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Am I correct that classic era duned courses have blind shots off of the tee but there is ample room to roam without severe penalty and that only the newer courses have restricted landing areas ? I am thinking of Ballybunion and Royal County Down as classic courses and Enniscrone (new holes) and Carne as new courses. Sean makes a good case that Portstewart might be too restricted.

Mike, Interesting question... Both Ballybunion and County Down have few holes that can be considered playing down 'dune valleys' but they are very different in terms of blind shots: County Down has plenty, Ballybunion has virtually none and also has the fairly unique situation of having dune ridges laid out perpendicular to the shore as opposed to parallel... Other than that though, you get close to the trends I've been talking about.... Personally, this is my trend (with obvious and plentiful exceptions):

1. Original links courses built on flattish land as golf grows in the 1800's
2. The need for drama and interesting holes lead to bigger dunes being used. Construction techniques are still primitive so many blind shots are created.
3. Advancements in Architecture mean the Golden Age architects can improve some courses (and eradicate some blindness) with fairly minimal earthworks
4. Improvement in construction techniques mean bigger dunes can be used and modified.
5. The trend in narrowing fairways means architects use narrower dune valleys than might have been considered before
6. Some modern architects (especially in the States) have the confidence, ability and chance to start using lower undulating sites again, creating dramatic finished products that don't rely on big and high dunes or fake dunes...

[Rory Connaughton]

Sean:

  I think your points with respect to the impact of the wind and routing are good ones. 

Donal: what jumps out at me about Portmarnock are the green sites and surrounds especially when the dunes are used as dominant features.  Some are mundane but I think that 1, 6, 7, 8, 10.12. 14. 15 and 18 are very good. They don't jump out and make you say wow but I think that they are, on the whole, pretty sophisticated.  I have not seen Royal Dublin since the work was completed but perhaps I will stop in on my next visit. I understand that it has been well received.

[mike_malone]

 Ally,

   Any thoughts about the ball revolution that made it easier to carry dunes.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

   Any thoughts about the ball revolution that made it easier to carry dunes.

I guess you could slot that in to number 2... But I may be stretching it.

Completely agree with Rory on Portmarnock's green sites...

[Niall C]

Am I correct that classic era duned courses have blind shots off of the tee but there is ample room to roam without severe penalty and that only the newer courses have restricted landing areas ? I am thinking of Ballybunion and Royal County Down as classic courses and Enniscrone (new holes) and Carne as new courses. Sean makes a good case that Portstewart might be too restricted.

Mike

I think you're spot on with that comment, and I think the reason why older courses have room for blind landing areas is the way they evolved ie continual tinkering by committees and greenkeepers, and the general golfers desire for "fairness". The concept of fairness sometimes takes a bashing on this site but I think in this context it is absolutely right, as the landing area reflects the difficulty of the shot.

Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Ally:

I think bigger dunes became the trend the same day that Americans started setting trends.  Americans are all about bigger is better.  Remember, it was Americans (Wind and Watson) that made Ballybunion the cat's meow ... the Irish thought Portmarnock was as good as it gets.

Personally, what I want to see in a course is variety.  If there are really big dunes, I'd try to build a course which wandered into them for a few holes, and played along the edge of them for the rest.  But one has to be very fortunate to have enough of them to be able to choose. 

[Bill_McBride]

Ally:

I think bigger dunes became the trend the same day that Americans started setting trends.  Americans are all about bigger is better.  Remember, it was Americans (Wind and Watson) that made Ballybunion the cat's meow ... the Irish thought Portmarnock was as good as it gets.

Personally, what I want to see in a course is variety.  If there are really big dunes, I'd try to build a course which wandered into them for a few holes, and played along the edge of them for the rest.  But one has to be very fortunate to have enough of them to be able to choose. 

That's one reason why Deal is so cool.  A few holes in the dunes and then more gentle terrain.  Littlestone sort of the same.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Variety is the key alright... Sean was hammering that point home earlier in the thread... Take Ballybunion again (for the sake of consistency) - People bemoan the flatter holes on the course, especially when contratsing them with the dramatic ones... But three of my favourite holes are the 6th, the 9th and the 13th which can all be considered among the flatter holes (though not quite the same land as the 4th and the 5th which are undeniably lacking in drama)...

Interesting point about the American's Tom... I'm not sure I agree but I suppose it is a possibility - I haven't been around long enough to experience that change in the Irish pysche first hand... I would have thought the Wind / Watson connection was what brought Ballybunion to the world stage, not the Irish stage... Again, just publicity...

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Interesting point about the American's Tom... I'm not sure I agree but I suppose it is a possibility - I haven't been around long enough to experience that change in the Irish pysche first hand... I would have thought the Wind / Watson connection was what brought Ballybunion to the world stage, not the Irish stage... Again, just publicity...

Ballybunion was probably appreciated by many Irish golfers in the South West, but they may have needed Warren Wind and Watson to convince them that it was one of the best in the world. You could draw a parallel with Ballyliffin. Not so many people had heard of Ballyliffin before Faldo visited. Even golfers in Donegal didn't know much about it before the 1990s. Why did a course that existed for over 40 years suddenly become famous? Publicity and the stamp of approval from someone of the stature of Faldo.

Dónal.

[Paul_Turner]

It is my firm belief that high dunes were not initially seen as "good for golf"... For some fairly obvious reasons...

Nowadays, with a general need for the dramatic ruling our heads in almost everything we do (not only in golf), the higher the dunes, the better the golf course...

When did these trends change?... And why?

Ally

That's definitely true, Darwin and others often described land as being to undulating for "good golf".  Now, however, there are many misguided souls who think Carne is better than Lytham

[Ally Mcintosh]

It is my firm belief that high dunes were not initially seen as "good for golf"... For some fairly obvious reasons...

Nowadays, with a general need for the dramatic ruling our heads in almost everything we do (not only in golf), the higher the dunes, the better the golf course...

When did these trends change?... And why?

Ally

That's definitely true, Darwin and others often described land as being to undulating for "good golf".  Now, however, there are many misguided souls who think Carne is better than Lytham

Or Paul... If you look at the Ballybunion Cashen thread, there are those that believe that the only reason that course is not a world beater is because Robert Trent Jones designed it...

[Sean_A]

It is my firm belief that high dunes were not initially seen as "good for golf"... For some fairly obvious reasons...

Nowadays, with a general need for the dramatic ruling our heads in almost everything we do (not only in golf), the higher the dunes, the better the golf course...

When did these trends change?... And why?

Ally

That's definitely true, Darwin and others often described land as being to undulating for "good golf".  Now, however, there are many misguided souls who think Carne is better than Lytham

Paul

I wonder how good Lytham could have been if bunkering wasn't made its prime reason for existing?  Lytham is definitely one of my candidates for a good property spoiled.  Ok, some of that is down to stupid championship ideals, but some is also down to trying to create a golf course practically with bunkering as its main component.  It just doesn't work imo.

Lets see, Lytham isn't special, but has a handful of very fine holes - £208 for the day.  Carne is problematic in places for sure, but it has many very good holes as well - 90 Euros for the day.  I guess you can figure out where I will play.  

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

I knew I'd get you with that one.

[Sean_A]

Sean

I knew I'd get you with that one.

Paul

Speaking of Lytham, how much is Colt?  I suspect a fair amount is his, but not an overwhelming amount.  I have a theory that Colt may have been just as good (if not better!) at redesigning courses as he was at building them from scratch.  It seems to me that Colt never tried over-power a course with his ideas and instead kept a steady dose of what was already there and create a harmonious meld. 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Carne is 90 Euros?  No wonder Irish courses are struggling.

Ally:  Another course which vaulted to popularity thanks to Americans is Cruden Bay.  Before I was there in 1982, hardly anyone in the UK talked about it ... I suspect the big dunes were still seen as a problem among local golfers.  But put a few pictures in the American mags and we were all over it.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tom,

I suppose you are correct. The 'Americans' have such marketing power in general that when they promote something, the rest of the world automatically follows... So I can easily see how Ballybunion and Cruden Bay might have become more popular in Ireland and Scotland respectively after such publicity...

Still, Ballybunion held major national tournaments from very early on.... Tom Simpson was called in to make alterations in preparation for the Irish Amateur Championship of 1937... It was always held in high esteem... Unfortunately, what that publicity did bring about was the usual - an overhead I have from 1960 shows some fantastic bunker shapes, all of which have been altered in the years since... and then of course we had Tom Watson's changes which at best appear arbitrary - Just because he sung the course's praises...

[Rory Connaughton]

For what its worth, Carne's in season green fee is 65 euro.  90 euro gets you the entire day.
I think that's a fair price.

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