[Jin Kim]

Tim, your view is exactly mine.  I may miss the subtleties on Trails that inspire folks here, but the middle of BT has never been memorable to me.  One round per trip at BT is enough for me.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I felt like I hit the same shot to many times on Bandon Dunes. I felt like all the ocean holes used the same deception techniques. I think the green complexes are Trails are extremely interesting, have great variety and require much more imagination.

[Ronald Montesano]

Wow, I'll do my best to contradict the "hole in the middle" theory.  Working backward, 12 and 11 are terrific from memory...12 is a great par 3.5 where you play out to the right, pitch on and make your putt, as I recall.  11 feels like an inland hole, like something from Blackwolf Run (different archies, I know) with its slanted fairway, except it has the run and hollow sound of the region.  I loved how you had to hit the ball in from the left, with so much trouble right.

Let's see, ten is certainly a boring hole, except that its fairway has so much heave and ho that you probably won't get a flat lie for your second.  Given the daunting par five that precedes it and the holes yet to come, if there is such a thing as a breather hole at Trails, this would be it.

Nine is a challenging par five from start to finish.  Yes, the trees do cause claustrophobia the closer you get to the green, but one hole at the resort to do that is allowable.  cC give you one bunker per landing area to consider as you plan your route, a marvelous touch.

How can anyone disparage a short par four?  8 is great, simply put.  Good players will miss left when trying to over hit, and that's where the sand is found.  Weaker players will spray right, exactly where cC open up the fairway.  Play a shot out to the right and the green smiles at you.  No pin is hidden from the right side of the fairway.

I couldn't believe how wide the fairway was on seven.  It needed to be, given the length and vertical climb to the hole.  I recall being on the green in three, thinking I had a run at par, subsequently realizing that two putts for bogey would be just fine.

I agree that the opening and closing 6s are certainly more memorable, but I wouldn't eliminate any of the middle six.

[Peter Ferlicca]

It isn't even a contest for me; I would play Bandon Trails any day over BD.  Even if for some reason PD was closed and I could only choose between BD and BT for 5 rounds, I would do all five rounds on BT.  When I went on my trip to Bandon I played Pacific Dunes first in the morning, and was just amazed.  I had some nice meatloaf for lunch at was really looking forward to my afternoon round at Bandon Dunes.  The weather was the worst weather anyone can imagine playing in, WHICH TRUST ME DID NOT INFLUENCE MY DECISION.  The course left me feeling like it could have been better, the bunkers did absolutely nothing for me, and the greens were somewhat interesting but nothing like PD or BT, and the tee shots and approach shots where from time to time amazing and boring, #9 at BD has to be one of the most boring holes you could design on property like that.  The next day I played Old MacDonald in the morning and was once again amazed, felt like that is the closest feeling of playing in Scotland as you will get in America.  I then played Bandon Trails in the afternoon, which IMO was the most enjoyable walk out of all four courses.  You explore through some many different environments, you are always wondering what is coming up next.  The first two holes at BT start you out with the feeling that this is going to be an awesome experience, and it only gets better from there on out.  Holes 1-5 are all must plays, 6-12 IMO was the prettiest part of the walk, and I’m a sucker for pine trees.  Hole 13 has the coolest looking approach on the golf course with the huge drop-off on either side of the green.  Hole 15 has one of the best green sites I have ever seen.  Hole 17 IMO is the best par 3 at the whole facility, and 18 approach is a very fun finishing shot to a uphill green.  If I was going to Bandon and was told that out of PD, BD, and BT you could join one of the courses to be a member, I would probably say BT just because there is soo much to learn every time you play that course.  Don't get me wrong PD is the better golf course, but BT I think would be more fun on a repeat play basis.

[Ronald Montesano]

Before we get too crazy, let's recall Goodwin's "Dream Golf" and remember that Mr. Keiser kept a fairly tight rein on DMK.  Since it was the first course, I'm guessing that (consciously or subconsciously) Mr. Keiser didn't want to get too crazy with the bunkering and other links elements.  We know that Kidd is capable of Pac-esque and Trails-esque bunkering.  Remember, too, that not all links courses have hairy bunkers...many utilize the clean entries and exits that Bandon Dunes has.  Perhaps the question that needs to be asked (Holy Crossover Thread, Batman) is, which of the four properties (don't count Conservation Course) was the most varied/had the most potential, etc...this is relative to Mac's thread (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42097.0/) about best work, worst site.

In other words, Give cC the BD site, Doak the Trails site and Kidd the PD site and what might we get?  In addition, have cC build first, Doak second and Kidd third...what happens then?

Finally, take a read of this...http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Interview-Kyle-Phillips/1422/Default.aspx  Kyle Phillips' quote on sites is most appropriate..."If a site has been blessed with perfect natural landforms, then a minimalist approach is a good approach. Unfortunately the majority of sites available today lack natural landforms for golf. In this case more creativity is required in order to give the site a natural appearance and produce the best golf experience."

[Jed Rammell]

Bandon Dunes is Kidd's first course--it's pretty straightforward throughout and as Adam's pointed out the fit and finish isn't as accomplished.  It's a fun course to play, and does have some great holes, though, like #11--with fairly simple strategic options but a nasty bite for the unwary.  I like to play Bandon Dunes as the last round of the visit.  How many architects have had a better debut?

Bandon Trails is certainly more of a puzzle for the brain.  I think you could play it dozens of times and still discover subtleties.  It's much more punishing around the greens than Bandon Dunes and there's an art to approaching the BT greens that I haven't figured out.  That type of design certainly doesn't happen by accident, and the experience of C&C shows.

I agree with Eric - - Bandon Trails is a golf course that I wish I could play 100 times in an effort to "figure" out.  I could happily play Bandon Dunes the rest of my life, but it pales in comparison to the other 3 courses for me (I've only played the Old Mac 10 hole preview so it isn't a totally fair comparison). Of all the courses on the property, BT is the one that I am most looking forward to another few cracks on. 

[Carl Nichols]

Strikes one, two and three for Chris...

One...17 and 9 are not uninspired at BD.

I have to agree with Chris here -- 9 and 17 (and 18) aren't bad holes, but there's definitely nothing "inspiring" about them, IMHO.  I'd certainly put all three (9, 17, 18) at the bottom of the resort's collection of holes.

Ronald, what do you find is so inspiring about 9 and 17?

[Jeff Doerr]

I like Bandon Dunes better. Not trying to qualify it as the better course; simply the one I enjoy playing more.

I love the start of Trails. I like most of the finish. The middle doesn't inspire me and I like the 18th tee shot less with every play.

Bandon Dunes has the blandest greens at the resort which would usually drive me to prefer Trails but I enjoy the walk and the holes and the total package more.

To me the real test is how many times do I want to play each course. Last time out there we had 2 rounds booked at each of these two courses. We traded in our 2nd round at Trails for another round at Pacific Dunes which made our split 4-2-1. For next June we didn't even consider a 2nd round at Trails. We ultimately landed on only 1 at each BD and BT but we would have played a 2nd at BD if OM were not opening.

I am pretty sure that all 4 in my foursome would agree with the extra round at Bandon Dunes over Bandon Trails.

I have to side with Tim on this. I think the first 7 or 8 at BT are great, 9-12 are good holes, but don't do a whole lot for me. I also agree on the tee shot on 18.

[Will MacEwen]

Strikes one, two and three for Chris...

One...17 and 9 are not uninspired at BD.

I have to agree with Chris here -- 9 and 17 (and 18) aren't bad holes, but there's definitely nothing "inspiring" about them, IMHO.  I'd certainly put all three (9, 17, 18) at the bottom of the resort's collection of holes.

Ronald, what do you find is so inspiring about 9 and 17?

I know I am not Ronald, but I find 17 at Bandon to be a great hole.  They have moved the tees up and opened up the left side, neither of which is a positive.  It used to be the most demanding par 4 on the back nine, often requiring a 5 iron to a green that punished the short or right miss.  I actually thought it superior to 16, which was usually a 4 wood and a wedge from the green tees. 

I should note that they didn't formally move the tees up on 17, but had the markers forward on my last visit or two.

Is anyone else finding the posting difficult?  The whole comment box is vibrating with each keystroke, and I can't see what I am typing. 

[Mike Wagner]

What is NOT to LOVE about #17?  I don't get it...

Bandon needs a special section of this site dedicated to votes regarding this issue.  It just goes back and forth all day....who like which course better..

A dedicated section of voting would be interesting.  I personally don't give a rip which course anyone likes better than the other....as I love the entire property and the differences between them, but an aggregate "scorecard" would be interesting since the discussion of the Bandon property will go on and on and on.........and on..

[Ronald Montesano]

9 to me is elegant in its simplicity...it gives you a Robert Frost sort of decision, a Road Less Travelled...left or right of the bunkers off the tee, bounding down greenward on the next shot or certainly the third, more tucked bunkers, a bunker-less green, sweeping chipping areas, a chance at a fine number...it's like Mikey in RECESS, a big and humble hole.

17 has the difficulty of following the glory of 16.  It begins the link of Ocean (and infinity, I might add) with clubhouse (and finiteness.)  When I played it, about four years ago, the left side was not as open as it seems they've made it, but I don't think that this would change my opinion much.  There is the idea of "here is where to not go" up the right side, but "don't think these bunkers are pillows" up the left.  You needed to hit a quality shot off the tee, then assess your next shot, into the green.  This one said "front and right are a challenge; if you don't trust the swing, you'll miss down in the crap."  Since there is ample room to miss left and have a chip or putt-up, if you trust your short game and play it strategically, you'll succeed.

And remember, down in the garbage right are the Keiser par three tees, the hidden ones that make it a hole that I can't envision.  I didn't know they were there when I played it and I'd love to see them when I get back.

16-18 preserve the essential elements of the golf course and links golf while affording an opportunity to score.  Let's remember that many great golf courses have holes on which a score can be made.  If you're thinking birdie on any of these, you may come away with bogie or worse; if you focus and hit quality shots, you might birdie all three of them!

[Tim Bert]

PFerlicca mentions that if Pacific Dunes were for some reason closed he would play all of his rounds at Trails. I  go one further and say that if PD were closed I wouldn't make the trip. Now that isn't to say I don't like the other courses because. Wouldn't continue to play then everytime out if that were true. In my opinion, however, neither of those course would warrant a return trip to that remote destination. You have to work too hard to get there and there's other places to play. I think this two courses wold warrant a one-time trip but that is it (unless you were located in the Pac Northwest.)

It is a testament to my opinion of Pacific Dunes then that I have been there three times. I am holing Old Mac adds to the legend. As it stands Trails and Dunes are great supporting courses - for me. 

[Michael Dugger]

Fresh back from playing all three Thurs., Fri. and Sat.

I prefer BT mostly because I think it has more variety.

And it's JAY Blasi, guys, not Jason.

[Ben Sims]

This argument comes down to individual golf holes in my opinion.  I am in the process of breaking down a five day trip, and it makes for a fun and nerve-wracking equation.  So lets say I play twice a day, for five days, and that a pilgrimage up to The Ranch is a requirement.  Here is how I would break down my five day trip.

Day 1:  Sheep Ranch
           Old Mac

Day 2:  Pac Dunes
           Bandon Trails

Day 3:  Old Mac
           Pac Dunes

Day 4:  Bandon Trails
           Pac Dunes

Day 5: Old Mac
          Bandon Dunes

That gives me 3 each at Pac and Mac, 2 at Trails, and my last round at Bandon Dunes.  The reason I would only play it once is 1) I can satisfy my "seaside" requirements by being at Sheep Ranch, Pac, and #7 and #15 at Old Mac.  2) The individual greatness of #4, #5, and #16 at Bandon Dunes doesn't beat the individual greatness of #3, #15-#17 at Trails.  

Quite frankly, I feel like the best way to experience the original course is on the last play.  

[Jeff Doerr]

Ben,

If travel is not a problem on the first day, I'd think about putting Sheep Ranch into the middle to give a little rest.

Jeff

[Ronald Montesano]

Who is Jay Blasi?  The guy from RTJ2?  It says Jason on their website.

[Ben Sims]

Jeff,

As I found out on my first trip, The Ranch was the perfect way to get into the "mindset" needed for golf at Bandon.  It really did expose me openly to wind, and the sound of the surf, the smells, and the shots required.  As such, I will probably never plan a trip to The Resort without first starting out at The Ranch.

But your point is valid.  Especially considering how tough the walk can be at Trails as a second course of the day.

Ben

[David Botimer]

This argument comes down to individual golf holes in my opinion.  I am in the process of breaking down a five day trip, and it makes for a fun and nerve-wracking equation.  So lets say I play twice a day, for five days, and that a pilgrimage up to The Ranch is a requirement.  Here is how I would break down my five day trip.

Day 1:  Sheep Ranch
           Old Mac

Day 2:  Pac Dunes
           Bandon Trails

Day 3:  Old Mac
           Pac Dunes

Day 4:  Bandon Trails
           Pac Dunes

Day 5: Old Mac
          Bandon Dunes
  

Since I caddie on these great courses and see them daily, let me throw you a different idea.  I'd play the courses in the order they were built for rounds 1-4.  That affords you a couple things:  1) BD is clearly the easiest (by 3-5 shots if my calculations hold any water  ) and leading with it allows you to "cut" / re-"cut" your teeth at links golf with the course providing the most forgiveness, and 2) gives you the "Mike Keiser" perspective of seeing all 4 courses on his chronology.  As for the Sheep Ranch, I'd put it in one of your afternoon rounds day 3 or 4 so you can time your exit at will (read play to your hearts content, regardless of # holes played).

Dave

[Rob Rigg]

I like Dave's idea - I wish that I had played BD first on my initial village but I was jonesing for some PD so played there instead.

BD would be a nice intro to the resort and links golf - then you up the ante with PD - then you head inland and play an absolutely magical track in Trails and then out of the woods and give it a lash on the wide open, awe inspiring and monumental OM.

If I played BD last, I would feel like the trip ended with a fizzle - actually, I don't think I could leave the resort if BD was my last round, I would have to play another because I enjoy the other in their entirety so much more (BD does have some great holes).

Ideally PD or OM would be the optimal swan song because you get that ocean hit and when you won't be seeing it for a while it is nice to have that last round on the seaside links as your take away memory.

[Ryan Admussen]

How does one go about playing Sheep Ranch?

[Ben Sims]

David and Rob,

Agreed.  But tipping my cap to the course that started it all on the way out the door seems like poetry.  I don't look at ending my trip at BD as a fizzle at all, merely a "come to Jesus" before I go back to the normal world.

Ryan,

I don't feel entirely allowed to communicate how to get on The Ranch here publicly.  However, I'm told that the secret squirrel nature of it all is drastically diminished.  Probably because of guys like me.  PM me if you need more info.  I think it's common knowledge out there anyway, but I'm just covering my ass.

[Eric_Terhorst]

If I played BD last, I would feel like the trip ended with a fizzle - actually, I don't think I could leave the resort if BD was my last round, I would have to play another because I enjoy the other in their entirety so much more (BD does have some great holes).

Rob Rigg,

Every time you comment on this web site regarding Bandon Dunes, you denigrate it or damn it with faint praise.  Yet on your web site it garners a "10" rating, just like Bandon Trails and Pacific Dunes.  I note your "10" rating for BD includes perfect scores for "Architecture and Aesthetics" and "Strategy and Playability."  If you "enjoy the others...so much more" why are the "ratings" equivalent?

If your comments here are inconsistent with your published comments elsewhere, to which, if any, should we pay attention and why?

[Rob Rigg]

Eric Terhorst,

Fair question.

You are talking about 3 (soon 4) of the best golf courses in the WORLD at ONE resort.

As rated on The Walking Golfer - Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails are both 10s in my opinion and Pacific Dunes is a 10+ as one of the most amazing golf experiences I have ever had - only rivaled by Ballybunion and Lahinch.

40% of The Walking Golfer rating is for Walkability, 40% for Architecture and Aesthetics and 20% for Strategy and Playability - when you put those components together, I think BD stacks up well against the other courses at the resort, and incredibly well against the rest of the courses in the North America.

GCA.com is a site dedicated to discussing Architecture, so your lens is focused much more intensely on that aspect of the experience when commenting on THIS site.

If Bandon Dunes was in Portland, where I live, I would play there and rarely anywhere else because it would clearly be best in class versus anything else in the vicinity.

However, it is not, instead it is situated next to what Team Doak x 2, and C&C have done at the resort, which makes BT, PD and OM more enjoyable for ME.

The Walking Golfer is a site dedicated to promoting the many benefits of walking when you golf and providing walkers with information about various courses and golf product. The site is contributed to by other Society members and is not "Rob's site". While some members of GCA are members of the Society it is not a site dedicated to GCA but walking golf. Hence, a standard course rating format has been designed to create course ratings that provide recommendations about whether a typical walking golfer would enjoy playing somewhere - and I am pretty damn sure given the criteria that most walking golfers would rate every course at Bandon a "10".

Your question is absolutely a fair one - but again, GCA.com is not the same audience that is being written for on The Walking Golfer.

Furthermore, if you read the various course reviews, it should be apparent that I prefer the other courses at the resort to BD, but that is not to suggest that some, many or most walking golfers will feel the same - as exemplified by the fact that BD gets more rounds than any other course and BT gets the least.

[Michael Dugger]

Color me someone who cannot grasp why Rigg dislikes BD so much.

[tlavin]

Heck, I think all three are simply spectacular.  The differences are fairly personal, subjective and minimal in my judgment.  Were I to rank them, I'd go PD, BD and BT, but there just isn't that much difference between the course in terms of how I would rank them against other great golf courses.  I think PD is a Top Ten (I would have it as high as #2), while BD would probably "slip" to the second Ten and BT would be slightly lower than that.  In the grand scheme of things, that's a very miniscule difference.  When you consider that they are all at the same resort, I mean, give me a bloody break.  It's golf heaven.  It puts Pebble Beach (as a resort) to shame.  It's superior to Pinehurst by some measure.  There's no competition.  There are courses at both of those places that one could and would actually decide NOT TO PLAY.  I, for example, don't care if I never play Spanish Bay again.  Poppy Hills?  Relatively pedestrian, sorry to say.  And there are several courses at Pinehurst that don't move my needle that much.

Then we throw in Old MacDonald which may prove to be the most beguiling of the bunch!  These course by course comparisons at Bandon are fun, but not all that meaningful at the end of the proverbial day.  It's like arguing about the merits of various entrees at the top restaurants in the world...

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