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[Ryan Admussen]

From previous posts, Bandon Trails seems to be favored, just curious why? when courses are at this level is it strictly personal taste or are there other reasons?

[Stan Dodd]

I much prefer the walk at Bandon Dunes. 

[Adam Clayman]

For me the major difference was the feature shaping. Bill Coore has unbelievable eye for the natural and BT blends in so well, any course would have trouble standing up to the job he did for Mr. Keiser on that front.

BD on the other hand has an almost too perfect edge to the shaping. Such uniformity rarely occurs in nature, especially sea side.

[Kevin Pallier]

BT had more of a natural flow and feel about it's layout compared to BD for mine. BD has a few "lesser" moments in it's routing and as Adam says has a little too "constructed" feel about it with almost perfect mounding in parts.

PD blends the "edginess" of the site much better than BD.

[Sean Leary]

More C and C butt boys here.

The general public much prefers BD.

[Adam Clayman]

Lord knows I'm grateful for that.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Bandon Dunes is Kidd's first course--it's pretty straightforward throughout and as Adam's pointed out the fit and finish isn't as accomplished.  It's a fun course to play, and does have some great holes, though, like #11--with fairly simple strategic options but a nasty bite for the unwary.  I like to play Bandon Dunes as the last round of the visit.  How many architects have had a better debut?

Bandon Trails is certainly more of a puzzle for the brain.  I think you could play it dozens of times and still discover subtleties.  It's much more punishing around the greens than Bandon Dunes and there's an art to approaching the BT greens that I haven't figured out.  That type of design certainly doesn't happen by accident, and the experience of C&C shows.

[Jim Nugent]

More C and C butt boys here.

The general public much prefers BD.

The general public prefers Macdonald's and The National Enquirer. 

[Sean Leary]

More C and C butt boys here.

The general public much prefers BD.

The general public prefers Macdonald's and The National Enquirer. 

Golfweek, Golf Digest, and Golf Magazine raters prefer Bandon Dunes as well. I prefer Trails myself.

[Duane Sharpe]

After just recently playiing all four courses at Bandon. I prefer BT to BD even though we played in the rain.
The variety of shots and shot values at BT are incredible. The greens were nearly perfectly designed and they were in terrific shape as well.
BT was up there with PD for me!
Sharpee

[Adam Clayman]

Sean, If the numbers continue to grow, the panels will reflect the general public more and more.

The good thing about that might turn out to be a greater awareness for the architecture by the general public. I, will not be holding my breath, though.

Honestly, When I played there and started on BD, I couldn't have cared less who designed it. It was just so exciting to be playing links golf. It wasn't until later in the round where the slight criticism I've made became apparent.

I will also admit to being somewhat concerned with the news of another course possibly going in. WHile the 12 hole concept is very cool, I just wonder if there's a point of saturation or something along those lines. Also, others have associated the 12 hole par 3 layout with drinking and gambling. Somehow that implies raucous behavior and could potentially demean the dream, so to speak.

[Ronald Montesano]

Let's remember that Kidd had a weird influential blend of Macrihanish and Gleneagles...that's akin to growing up on Maidstone and Turning Stone, to some degree.  It makes sense that both would be in his blood and the blood of his designs.

[Chris Cupit]

It may sound weird but I travelled from Atlanta to Bandon, walked all three courses and didn't play any of them!  Based on walking and watching others play, Bandon Dunes was my least favorite of the three.  Now, that's absolutely splitting hairs as all three courses (there were three when i was there) are excellent but I thought Bandon Dunes had some weak/unispired holes--#9, #17, #18 for example.

I loved the look and feel of Trails and while I wasn't crazy about #18 tee shot (which after watching some of the best Ams play it in severe weather made me think it did not offer enough space), I thought there were more terrific looking green sites there than anything at Bandon Dunes.  Highlights for me were the bunker complex short of the first par 5, the split fairway par 4 fifth? and that green nestled in there, the par three 8th? with the great green/mounding, the par three  17th.

Great spot but I vote Trails.  If I was giving my friends advice and knowing their tastes I would have said play Pacific Dunes first, Trails next.  I'd then tell them there is no need to play BD unless they just wanted to "punch their card" so to speak as PD is every bit as spectacular and seems like a better course anyway. 

If I am there for five days of golf and could play say 36 four days and 18 the last day I play:  4 PD. 4 BT and 1 BD (to pick up the the little Toucan headcover or whatever that thing is)   Actually, I know it's something else and he's kinda cute so I already bought one for my wife last trip but I'd feel guilty getting one myself without actually playing BD .   

[Ronald Montesano]

Strikes one, two and three for Chris...

One...17 and 9 are not uninspired at BD.

Two...You revealed yourself to be a card puncher by bringing it up.

Three...It's a puffin.

You get a reprieve/another swing for the splitting hairs comment.

Bandon Dunes, at the time it was introduced, was everything to those not members at Sand Hills that Sand Hills was to its members.  It represented a light in the darkness.  This should never be forgotten.  Pac Dunes, Trails and Old Mac stand on the shoulders of Bandon Dunes.

[Cristian Willaert]

I would imagine (have not played at BD resort) that if Bandon Dunes was the only links track on the property it might have been more popular than BT, but because there is now a second (and soon a third) more popular links course, BT is a change to the senses at the resort as the only non-links and therefore more popular than BD.

[Ronald Montesano]

Don't let the publicity fool you...BT is VERY linksy...the same shots that work on the other three courses will work on BT.  The width of the fairways is greater at the three by the water, lesser at BT.

[Sean Leary]

Sean, If the numbers continue to grow, the panels will reflect the general public more and more.

The good thing about that might turn out to be a greater awareness for the architecture by the general public. I, will not be holding my breath, though.

Honestly, When I played there and started on BD, I couldn't have cared less who designed it. It was just so exciting to be playing links golf. It wasn't until later in the round where the slight criticism I've made became apparent.

I will also admit to being somewhat concerned with the news of another course possibly going in. WHile the 12 hole concept is very cool, I just wonder if there's a point of saturation or something along those lines. Also, others have associated the 12 hole par 3 layout with drinking and gambling. Somehow that implies raucous behavior and could potentially demean the dream, so to speak.

I agree with everything you say here, Adam I really do.

I just think GCAers WANT Trails to be better, thats all. We look for the good in C and C courses, not the bad. Its just one of our natural biases.  And as I said, I like it better myself.

If Trails was exactly as it is (I know impossible, but bear with me), but Art Hills designed it, do you think it would be as favored over BD as it is here?

I played two rounds over two days with a prominent GCAer once. We played two courses, one by a MFA, one by a NFA(Not Favored Architect). The NFA course is highly rated, Top 100, the MFA course is not but very good. He started analyzing the courses immediately, and what struck me in his comments was how quickly he was looking for the good things from the MFA and the bad things from the NFA. He would admit that the NFA course is clearly better, but during the rounds, he looked for the good things in one and the bad things in the other. I just found it interesting, thats all.

[Ronald Montesano]

Didn't that essentially happen with Chambers Bay?  An LFA designed it and we all asked "why wait until now?"  We the enlightened would ask "why did you wait, Art Hills?"

[Sean Leary]

Didn't that essentially happen with Chambers Bay?  An LFA designed it and we all asked "why wait until now?"  We the enlightened would ask "why did you wait, Art Hills?"

Yes. But RTJ Jr. himself gets almost no credit for it here. Perhaps deservedly so, but we want to assign credit to someone else.

[Ronald Montesano]

To whom, Bruce Charlton?  Jason Blasi?  RTJ2 had to sign off in some form or fashion.

[Mike Benham]

More C and C butt boys here.

The general public much prefers BD.

The general public prefers Macdonald's and The National Enquirer. 

I'm assuming you mean the fast food chain and if so, it is "McDonald's but if they want to add a burger shop on the Bandon property, perhaps they will add the "a" and a lower case "d" to fit in ...

[Sean Leary]

To whom, Bruce Charlton?  Jason Blasi?  RTJ2 had to sign off in some form or fashion.

Both. And I agree, but have you ever seen the underlings get more credit than the name like with CB? And again, it most likely is deserved. But if it ended up being a disappointment, would Blasi and Charlton get the blame? No.

[Chris Cupit]

Strikes one, two and three for Chris...

One...17 and 9 are not uninspired at BD.

Two...You revealed yourself to be a card puncher by bringing it up.

Three...It's a puffin.

You get a reprieve/another swing for the splitting hairs comment.

Bandon Dunes, at the time it was introduced, was everything to those not members at Sand Hills that Sand Hills was to its members.  It represented a light in the darkness.  This should never be forgotten.  Pac Dunes, Trails and Old Mac stand on the shoulders of Bandon Dunes.

It wouldn't be the first time I've struck out   and thanks for the reprieve!

BD is excellent.  I love how you don't see the water until lookind down into #4.  It's a great and beautiful walk and you are right that is does deserve credit as the back bone of an inspired destination for golf.  I do think those that have followed it have improved upon the original if you will.

I guess you agree that #18 is a bit lacking (on a relative scale) and I'll give you that there is more going on on 17 than 9 but really, what is there to #9   Very bland ground, and you play up a tube for a couple of shots and then pitch to a pretty ho-hum green.  I admit I never played it but from what I saw there just wasn't much going on.  Wasn't the old range nearby--kinda blends in with it doesn't it

Someone that spent a week in Bandon with the oppotunity to play pretty cheaply who passes that up is most definitely NOT a "card puncher".  I think I'm the anti card puncher as I would not even buy a logo or wear one from a course I hadn't played.  I don't save scorecards, keep hole in one balls or have a logo ball collection much less any "list" of "great courses" I have played!  I am going back to play and BD will be on the list because it does look like fun to play;and, so I can join my wife and become a two Puffin family   They do look like distant cousins to the Fruit Loops bird though

Anyway it IS a special place.

[Pete_Pittock]

Bandon Dunes plays like a resort course, fairly straight forward and in front of you. Bandon Trails plays like a members' course where you gain more respect as you discover some of it's secrets.

[Tim Bert]

I like Bandon Dunes better. Not trying to qualify it as the better course; simply the one I enjoy playing more.

I love the start of Trails. I like most of the finish. The middle doesn't inspire me and I like the 18th tee shot less with every play.

Bandon Dunes has the blandest greens at the resort which would usually drive me to prefer Trails but I enjoy the walk and the holes and the total package more.

To me the real test is how many times do I want to play each course. Last time out there we had 2 rounds booked at each of these two courses. We traded in our 2nd round at Trails for another round at Pacific Dunes which made our split 4-2-1. For next June we didn't even consider a 2nd round at Trails. We ultimately landed on only 1 at each BD and BT but we would have played a 2nd at BD if OM were not opening.

I am pretty sure that all 4 in my foursome would agree with the extra round at Bandon Dunes over Bandon Trails.

[Jin Kim]

Tim, your view is exactly mine.  I may miss the subtleties on Trails that inspire folks here, but the middle of BT has never been memorable to me.  One round per trip at BT is enough for me.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I felt like I hit the same shot to many times on Bandon Dunes. I felt like all the ocean holes used the same deception techniques. I think the green complexes are Trails are extremely interesting, have great variety and require much more imagination.

[Ronald Montesano]

Wow, I'll do my best to contradict the "hole in the middle" theory.  Working backward, 12 and 11 are terrific from memory...12 is a great par 3.5 where you play out to the right, pitch on and make your putt, as I recall.  11 feels like an inland hole, like something from Blackwolf Run (different archies, I know) with its slanted fairway, except it has the run and hollow sound of the region.  I loved how you had to hit the ball in from the left, with so much trouble right.

Let's see, ten is certainly a boring hole, except that its fairway has so much heave and ho that you probably won't get a flat lie for your second.  Given the daunting par five that precedes it and the holes yet to come, if there is such a thing as a breather hole at Trails, this would be it.

Nine is a challenging par five from start to finish.  Yes, the trees do cause claustrophobia the closer you get to the green, but one hole at the resort to do that is allowable.  cC give you one bunker per landing area to consider as you plan your route, a marvelous touch.

How can anyone disparage a short par four?  8 is great, simply put.  Good players will miss left when trying to over hit, and that's where the sand is found.  Weaker players will spray right, exactly where cC open up the fairway.  Play a shot out to the right and the green smiles at you.  No pin is hidden from the right side of the fairway.

I couldn't believe how wide the fairway was on seven.  It needed to be, given the length and vertical climb to the hole.  I recall being on the green in three, thinking I had a run at par, subsequently realizing that two putts for bogey would be just fine.

I agree that the opening and closing 6s are certainly more memorable, but I wouldn't eliminate any of the middle six.

[PFerlicca]

It isn't even a contest for me; I would play Bandon Trails any day over BD.  Even if for some reason PD was closed and I could only choose between BD and BT for 5 rounds, I would do all five rounds on BT.  When I went on my trip to Bandon I played Pacific Dunes first in the morning, and was just amazed.  I had some nice meatloaf for lunch at was really looking forward to my afternoon round at Bandon Dunes.  The weather was the worst weather anyone can imagine playing in, WHICH TRUST ME DID NOT INFLUENCE MY DECISION.  The course left me feeling like it could have been better, the bunkers did absolutely nothing for me, and the greens were somewhat interesting but nothing like PD or BT, and the tee shots and approach shots where from time to time amazing and boring, #9 at BD has to be one of the most boring holes you could design on property like that.  The next day I played Old MacDonald in the morning and was once again amazed, felt like that is the closest feeling of playing in Scotland as you will get in America.  I then played Bandon Trails in the afternoon, which IMO was the most enjoyable walk out of all four courses.  You explore through some many different environments, you are always wondering what is coming up next.  The first two holes at BT start you out with the feeling that this is going to be an awesome experience, and it only gets better from there on out.  Holes 1-5 are all must plays, 6-12 IMO was the prettiest part of the walk, and I’m a sucker for pine trees.  Hole 13 has the coolest looking approach on the golf course with the huge drop-off on either side of the green.  Hole 15 has one of the best green sites I have ever seen.  Hole 17 IMO is the best par 3 at the whole facility, and 18 approach is a very fun finishing shot to a uphill green.  If I was going to Bandon and was told that out of PD, BD, and BT you could join one of the courses to be a member, I would probably say BT just because there is soo much to learn every time you play that course.  Don't get me wrong PD is the better golf course, but BT I think would be more fun on a repeat play basis.

[Ronald Montesano]

Before we get too crazy, let's recall Goodwin's "Dream Golf" and remember that Mr. Keiser kept a fairly tight rein on DMK.  Since it was the first course, I'm guessing that (consciously or subconsciously) Mr. Keiser didn't want to get too crazy with the bunkering and other links elements.  We know that Kidd is capable of Pac-esque and Trails-esque bunkering.  Remember, too, that not all links courses have hairy bunkers...many utilize the clean entries and exits that Bandon Dunes has.  Perhaps the question that needs to be asked (Holy Crossover Thread, Batman) is, which of the four properties (don't count Conservation Course) was the most varied/had the most potential, etc...this is relative to Mac's thread (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42097.0/) about best work, worst site.

In other words, Give cC the BD site, Doak the Trails site and Kidd the PD site and what might we get?  In addition, have cC build first, Doak second and Kidd third...what happens then?

Finally, take a read of this...http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Interview-Kyle-Phillips/1422/Default.aspx  Kyle Phillips' quote on sites is most appropriate..."If a site has been blessed with perfect natural landforms, then a minimalist approach is a good approach. Unfortunately the majority of sites available today lack natural landforms for golf. In this case more creativity is required in order to give the site a natural appearance and produce the best golf experience."

[Jed Rammell]

Bandon Dunes is Kidd's first course--it's pretty straightforward throughout and as Adam's pointed out the fit and finish isn't as accomplished.  It's a fun course to play, and does have some great holes, though, like #11--with fairly simple strategic options but a nasty bite for the unwary.  I like to play Bandon Dunes as the last round of the visit.  How many architects have had a better debut?

Bandon Trails is certainly more of a puzzle for the brain.  I think you could play it dozens of times and still discover subtleties.  It's much more punishing around the greens than Bandon Dunes and there's an art to approaching the BT greens that I haven't figured out.  That type of design certainly doesn't happen by accident, and the experience of C&C shows.

I agree with Eric - - Bandon Trails is a golf course that I wish I could play 100 times in an effort to "figure" out.  I could happily play Bandon Dunes the rest of my life, but it pales in comparison to the other 3 courses for me (I've only played the Old Mac 10 hole preview so it isn't a totally fair comparison). Of all the courses on the property, BT is the one that I am most looking forward to another few cracks on. 

[Carl Nichols]

Strikes one, two and three for Chris...

One...17 and 9 are not uninspired at BD.

I have to agree with Chris here -- 9 and 17 (and 18) aren't bad holes, but there's definitely nothing "inspiring" about them, IMHO.  I'd certainly put all three (9, 17, 18) at the bottom of the resort's collection of holes.

Ronald, what do you find is so inspiring about 9 and 17?

[Jeff Doerr]

I like Bandon Dunes better. Not trying to qualify it as the better course; simply the one I enjoy playing more.

I love the start of Trails. I like most of the finish. The middle doesn't inspire me and I like the 18th tee shot less with every play.

Bandon Dunes has the blandest greens at the resort which would usually drive me to prefer Trails but I enjoy the walk and the holes and the total package more.

To me the real test is how many times do I want to play each course. Last time out there we had 2 rounds booked at each of these two courses. We traded in our 2nd round at Trails for another round at Pacific Dunes which made our split 4-2-1. For next June we didn't even consider a 2nd round at Trails. We ultimately landed on only 1 at each BD and BT but we would have played a 2nd at BD if OM were not opening.

I am pretty sure that all 4 in my foursome would agree with the extra round at Bandon Dunes over Bandon Trails.

I have to side with Tim on this. I think the first 7 or 8 at BT are great, 9-12 are good holes, but don't do a whole lot for me. I also agree on the tee shot on 18.

[Will MacEwen]

Strikes one, two and three for Chris...

One...17 and 9 are not uninspired at BD.

I have to agree with Chris here -- 9 and 17 (and 18) aren't bad holes, but there's definitely nothing "inspiring" about them, IMHO.  I'd certainly put all three (9, 17, 18) at the bottom of the resort's collection of holes.

Ronald, what do you find is so inspiring about 9 and 17?

I know I am not Ronald, but I find 17 at Bandon to be a great hole.  They have moved the tees up and opened up the left side, neither of which is a positive.  It used to be the most demanding par 4 on the back nine, often requiring a 5 iron to a green that punished the short or right miss.  I actually thought it superior to 16, which was usually a 4 wood and a wedge from the green tees. 

I should note that they didn't formally move the tees up on 17, but had the markers forward on my last visit or two.

Is anyone else finding the posting difficult?  The whole comment box is vibrating with each keystroke, and I can't see what I am typing. 

[Mike Wagner]

What is NOT to LOVE about #17?  I don't get it...

Bandon needs a special section of this site dedicated to votes regarding this issue.  It just goes back and forth all day....who like which course better..

A dedicated section of voting would be interesting.  I personally don't give a rip which course anyone likes better than the other....as I love the entire property and the differences between them, but an aggregate "scorecard" would be interesting since the discussion of the Bandon property will go on and on and on.........and on..