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[Ronald Montesano]

9 to me is elegant in its simplicity...it gives you a Robert Frost sort of decision, a Road Less Travelled...left or right of the bunkers off the tee, bounding down greenward on the next shot or certainly the third, more tucked bunkers, a bunker-less green, sweeping chipping areas, a chance at a fine number...it's like Mikey in RECESS, a big and humble hole.

17 has the difficulty of following the glory of 16.  It begins the link of Ocean (and infinity, I might add) with clubhouse (and finiteness.)  When I played it, about four years ago, the left side was not as open as it seems they've made it, but I don't think that this would change my opinion much.  There is the idea of "here is where to not go" up the right side, but "don't think these bunkers are pillows" up the left.  You needed to hit a quality shot off the tee, then assess your next shot, into the green.  This one said "front and right are a challenge; if you don't trust the swing, you'll miss down in the crap."  Since there is ample room to miss left and have a chip or putt-up, if you trust your short game and play it strategically, you'll succeed.

And remember, down in the garbage right are the Keiser par three tees, the hidden ones that make it a hole that I can't envision.  I didn't know they were there when I played it and I'd love to see them when I get back.

16-18 preserve the essential elements of the golf course and links golf while affording an opportunity to score.  Let's remember that many great golf courses have holes on which a score can be made.  If you're thinking birdie on any of these, you may come away with bogie or worse; if you focus and hit quality shots, you might birdie all three of them!

[Tim Bert]

PFerlicca mentions that if Pacific Dunes were for some reason closed he would play all of his rounds at Trails. I  go one further and say that if PD were closed I wouldn't make the trip. Now that isn't to say I don't like the other courses because. Wouldn't continue to play then everytime out if that were true. In my opinion, however, neither of those course would warrant a return trip to that remote destination. You have to work too hard to get there and there's other places to play. I think this two courses wold warrant a one-time trip but that is it (unless you were located in the Pac Northwest.)

It is a testament to my opinion of Pacific Dunes then that I have been there three times. I am holing Old Mac adds to the legend. As it stands Trails and Dunes are great supporting courses - for me. 

[Michael Dugger]

Fresh back from playing all three Thurs., Fri. and Sat.

I prefer BT mostly because I think it has more variety.

And it's JAY Blasi, guys, not Jason.

[Ben Sims]

This argument comes down to individual golf holes in my opinion.  I am in the process of breaking down a five day trip, and it makes for a fun and nerve-wracking equation.  So lets say I play twice a day, for five days, and that a pilgrimage up to The Ranch is a requirement.  Here is how I would break down my five day trip.

Day 1:  Sheep Ranch
           Old Mac

Day 2:  Pac Dunes
           Bandon Trails

Day 3:  Old Mac
           Pac Dunes

Day 4:  Bandon Trails
           Pac Dunes

Day 5: Old Mac
          Bandon Dunes

That gives me 3 each at Pac and Mac, 2 at Trails, and my last round at Bandon Dunes.  The reason I would only play it once is 1) I can satisfy my "seaside" requirements by being at Sheep Ranch, Pac, and #7 and #15 at Old Mac.  2) The individual greatness of #4, #5, and #16 at Bandon Dunes doesn't beat the individual greatness of #3, #15-#17 at Trails.  

Quite frankly, I feel like the best way to experience the original course is on the last play.  

[Jeff Doerr]

Ben,

If travel is not a problem on the first day, I'd think about putting Sheep Ranch into the middle to give a little rest.

Jeff

[Ronald Montesano]

Who is Jay Blasi?  The guy from RTJ2?  It says Jason on their website.

[Ben Sims]

Jeff,

As I found out on my first trip, The Ranch was the perfect way to get into the "mindset" needed for golf at Bandon.  It really did expose me openly to wind, and the sound of the surf, the smells, and the shots required.  As such, I will probably never plan a trip to The Resort without first starting out at The Ranch.

But your point is valid.  Especially considering how tough the walk can be at Trails as a second course of the day.

Ben

[David Botimer]

This argument comes down to individual golf holes in my opinion.  I am in the process of breaking down a five day trip, and it makes for a fun and nerve-wracking equation.  So lets say I play twice a day, for five days, and that a pilgrimage up to The Ranch is a requirement.  Here is how I would break down my five day trip.

Day 1:  Sheep Ranch
           Old Mac

Day 2:  Pac Dunes
           Bandon Trails

Day 3:  Old Mac
           Pac Dunes

Day 4:  Bandon Trails
           Pac Dunes

Day 5: Old Mac
          Bandon Dunes
  

Since I caddie on these great courses and see them daily, let me throw you a different idea.  I'd play the courses in the order they were built for rounds 1-4.  That affords you a couple things:  1) BD is clearly the easiest (by 3-5 shots if my calculations hold any water  ) and leading with it allows you to "cut" / re-"cut" your teeth at links golf with the course providing the most forgiveness, and 2) gives you the "Mike Keiser" perspective of seeing all 4 courses on his chronology.  As for the Sheep Ranch, I'd put it in one of your afternoon rounds day 3 or 4 so you can time your exit at will (read play to your hearts content, regardless of # holes played).

Dave

[Rob Rigg]

I like Dave's idea - I wish that I had played BD first on my initial village but I was jonesing for some PD so played there instead.

BD would be a nice intro to the resort and links golf - then you up the ante with PD - then you head inland and play an absolutely magical track in Trails and then out of the woods and give it a lash on the wide open, awe inspiring and monumental OM.

If I played BD last, I would feel like the trip ended with a fizzle - actually, I don't think I could leave the resort if BD was my last round, I would have to play another because I enjoy the other in their entirety so much more (BD does have some great holes).

Ideally PD or OM would be the optimal swan song because you get that ocean hit and when you won't be seeing it for a while it is nice to have that last round on the seaside links as your take away memory.

[Ryan Admussen]

How does one go about playing Sheep Ranch?

[Ben Sims]

David and Rob,

Agreed.  But tipping my cap to the course that started it all on the way out the door seems like poetry.  I don't look at ending my trip at BD as a fizzle at all, merely a "come to Jesus" before I go back to the normal world.

Ryan,

I don't feel entirely allowed to communicate how to get on The Ranch here publicly.  However, I'm told that the secret squirrel nature of it all is drastically diminished.  Probably because of guys like me.  PM me if you need more info.  I think it's common knowledge out there anyway, but I'm just covering my ass.

[Eric_Terhorst]

If I played BD last, I would feel like the trip ended with a fizzle - actually, I don't think I could leave the resort if BD was my last round, I would have to play another because I enjoy the other in their entirety so much more (BD does have some great holes).

Rob Rigg,

Every time you comment on this web site regarding Bandon Dunes, you denigrate it or damn it with faint praise.  Yet on your web site it garners a "10" rating, just like Bandon Trails and Pacific Dunes.  I note your "10" rating for BD includes perfect scores for "Architecture and Aesthetics" and "Strategy and Playability."  If you "enjoy the others...so much more" why are the "ratings" equivalent?

If your comments here are inconsistent with your published comments elsewhere, to which, if any, should we pay attention and why?

[Rob Rigg]

Eric Terhorst,

Fair question.

You are talking about 3 (soon 4) of the best golf courses in the WORLD at ONE resort.

As rated on The Walking Golfer - Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails are both 10s in my opinion and Pacific Dunes is a 10+ as one of the most amazing golf experiences I have ever had - only rivaled by Ballybunion and Lahinch.

40% of The Walking Golfer rating is for Walkability, 40% for Architecture and Aesthetics and 20% for Strategy and Playability - when you put those components together, I think BD stacks up well against the other courses at the resort, and incredibly well against the rest of the courses in the North America.

GCA.com is a site dedicated to discussing Architecture, so your lens is focused much more intensely on that aspect of the experience when commenting on THIS site.

If Bandon Dunes was in Portland, where I live, I would play there and rarely anywhere else because it would clearly be best in class versus anything else in the vicinity.

However, it is not, instead it is situated next to what Team Doak x 2, and C&C have done at the resort, which makes BT, PD and OM more enjoyable for ME.

The Walking Golfer is a site dedicated to promoting the many benefits of walking when you golf and providing walkers with information about various courses and golf product. The site is contributed to by other Society members and is not "Rob's site". While some members of GCA are members of the Society it is not a site dedicated to GCA but walking golf. Hence, a standard course rating format has been designed to create course ratings that provide recommendations about whether a typical walking golfer would enjoy playing somewhere - and I am pretty damn sure given the criteria that most walking golfers would rate every course at Bandon a "10".

Your question is absolutely a fair one - but again, GCA.com is not the same audience that is being written for on The Walking Golfer.

Furthermore, if you read the various course reviews, it should be apparent that I prefer the other courses at the resort to BD, but that is not to suggest that some, many or most walking golfers will feel the same - as exemplified by the fact that BD gets more rounds than any other course and BT gets the least.

[Michael Dugger]

Color me someone who cannot grasp why Rigg dislikes BD so much.

[tlavin]

Heck, I think all three are simply spectacular.  The differences are fairly personal, subjective and minimal in my judgment.  Were I to rank them, I'd go PD, BD and BT, but there just isn't that much difference between the course in terms of how I would rank them against other great golf courses.  I think PD is a Top Ten (I would have it as high as #2), while BD would probably "slip" to the second Ten and BT would be slightly lower than that.  In the grand scheme of things, that's a very miniscule difference.  When you consider that they are all at the same resort, I mean, give me a bloody break.  It's golf heaven.  It puts Pebble Beach (as a resort) to shame.  It's superior to Pinehurst by some measure.  There's no competition.  There are courses at both of those places that one could and would actually decide NOT TO PLAY.  I, for example, don't care if I never play Spanish Bay again.  Poppy Hills?  Relatively pedestrian, sorry to say.  And there are several courses at Pinehurst that don't move my needle that much.

Then we throw in Old MacDonald which may prove to be the most beguiling of the bunch!  These course by course comparisons at Bandon are fun, but not all that meaningful at the end of the proverbial day.  It's like arguing about the merits of various entrees at the top restaurants in the world...

[Rob Rigg]

Color me someone who cannot grasp why Rigg dislikes BD so much.

Well Mike, I am not surprised by your comment.

You cannot grasp why I enjoyed OM so much and you cannot grasp why I prefer the other courses to BD, because that is all I have ever said - when have I ever stated that I "dislike BD"?

"Prefer" and "dislike" are very different words.

BD has some "all world" holes - but I prefer the "total experience" provided by the other routings.

I am looking fwd to going back and playing them all again - maybe my opinion will change - these things are liquid and every experience at a course is a step towards better understanding all that it has to offer. I do not know anyone who has returned from a Bandon trip and not changed their opinion in some way, shape or form about at least one of the courses.

I can grasp why a golfer would prefer one course over any of the others - I do not think it is that hard if you step back and look at all the variables and how they are different, sometimes subtly, at all the courses.

The amazing thing about BDGR is that there are 4 incredible tracks that are far from clones which is fantastic - instead of catering to one kind of golfer they cater to many.

[Michael Dugger]

Whatever, Rob, now you are being prickly.

I grasp plenty of things....just not your hierarchy of the Bandon golf courses.

You came in here and made it sound like Old Macdonald was the greatest thing since sliced bread and that the original BD course was far inferior.

While most of us feel it is prudent to reserve judgement on Old Mac until it is open and has been played a few times...

[Ronald Montesano]

Now Gentlemen, just as Michael has no right to speak for "most of us," nor should we engage in a bitch fest over semantics.  Rob defends his statements well, Michael disagrees, and you'll both drink me under the table if we ever meet up at MacKee's.  I love a spirited debate (see my RTJ thread) and this one is no less.  I'll toss in these two cents:  Bandon Dunes subconsciously gets grief because it is at the center of the resort.  It is not a "fringe" course in location, as are the other three.  This contributes unintentionally to its sometimes-viewed-as-vanilla-when-compared-to-the-others reputation.  I believe that all four, plus Lambchop, plus the 12 hole, will be staples of golfdom for centuries to come.

[Rob Rigg]

Whatever, Rob, now you are being prickly.

I grasp plenty of things....just not your hierarchy of the Bandon golf courses.

You came in here and made it sound like Old Macdonald was the greatest thing since sliced bread and that the original BD course was far inferior.

While most of us feel it is prudent to reserve judgement on Old Mac until it is open and has been played a few times...

Mike,

To each his own - I respect your opinion and everyone else's on the site - but please do not put words in my mouth when I have not used them - "dislike" is a very strong word - again - read what I have said about the courses at Bandon Dunes - they are all fantastic but BD is my least favorite of the four. I believe that I am not the only one who feels this way.

Also - OM, IMO, is the greatest thing since sliced bread and the reports that have been coming in on the full eighteen are just as positive as what Ben, me and others wrote about the preview round, and why would one have thought otherwise?

Are you sure that you are in the "most of us" camp or able to speak for "most of us"?

And what is so confusing about my hierarchy of BD courses - PD/OM, BT and BD - yeah, that's really weird. 

Color me someone who is not understanding what you are adding to this thread because you are commenting on someone else's opinion, actually making up their opinion for them by falsely representing what they have said in the past, instead of clearly articulating your own.

[Jud Tigerman]

guys, they both pale in comparison with pac dunes....and am i the only one that thinks #14 on BT is a silly hole for resort play? MAYBE it would be a great hole for a members course for guys who played it hundreds of times, but for guests who only play it once or twice? I know this is Keiser and C&C's favorite hole, but probably only because they love the idea of all the scorecard and pencil guys walking off with an X and f*cking with their world-view...and I want to see Melvyn hike that hill while shouldering a bag to #14 tee and pass on the tram!!!

[Rob Rigg]

Jud,

I know a bunch of people who say the exact same thing about #14 - you are certainly not alone.

It is definitely a polarizing hole - getting up there is a hike, when you do the view is incredible, the shot required off the tee is very daunting, and a fantastic short game is required to repair the damage if you end up right or back of the green.

#12, #13, #15, and #17 are the stand out great holes for me on the back nine - I love the 17th tee just adjacent to the 16th green, that is a really cool touch.

[Ronald Montesano]

Two things I love about this thread...Number 14 at Bandon Trails, an absolutely great golf hole, and Jud's fervor.  You can't mistake either one.  If we all had the same levels of passion, we'd have one boring site!  Love it!  Don't agree, obviously, on this hole, but love it!!

[Michael Dugger]

14 at BT really does need to be on a members course.  You MUST know what is going on and the danger or it will bite you.

This last time through, my 8th round at BT, I played super cautiously.

Had a 10 footer for par, missed it, took my bogey and smiled.

Scored the best of 8 guys in my crew.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think the best holes on Bandon Trails are the par 3's and BD the 4's. I feel that BD has more great holes but far more real busts in design and implementation. The only issues at Trails are the walks and distance between a few holes. have them at 5/5 or if forced to make a choice at 6/4 Trails. Trails is the stronger course to me.

[Joe Bentham]

Strikes one, two and three for Chris...

One...17 and 9 are not uninspired at BD.

I have to agree with Chris here -- 9 and 17 (and 18) aren't bad holes, but there's definitely nothing "inspiring" about them, IMHO.  I'd certainly put all three (9, 17, 18) at the bottom of the resort's collection of holes.

Ronald, what do you find is so inspiring about 9 and 17?

I know I am not Ronald, but I find 17 at Bandon to be a great hole.  They have moved the tees up and opened up the left side, neither of which is a positive.  It used to be the most demanding par 4 on the back nine, often requiring a 5 iron to a green that punished the short or right miss.  I actually thought it superior to 16, which was usually a 4 wood and a wedge from the green tees. 

I should note that they didn't formally move the tees up on 17, but had the markers forward on my last visit or two.

I think as it stands today, 17 might be my favorite hole on the back nine on Bandon.  I think the tees being up (so u have to pick the club that dosen't get u through the fairway) and the left being open (tricking golfers into thinking that is the safe side of the hole) are both positives.  Although I wouldn't call either of these 'changes'.  Any gorse that had crept into the left side of the hole wasn't there in 1998-1999.  And I don't think it is suppose to be a long hole.  The placement of the tee shot and the green are the trick.  Love trying to read 150 foot lag putts...

[Ross Waldorf]

Interesting comments, Joe.

Sounds like the opinion of someone who's spent quite a lot of time on that golf course. I don't think I have a very well-formed opinion of 17 yet. I've played the course I think 6 times, so I have some experience but am certainly no regular. 16 is just such a spectacular hole in the way that it looks -- plus there's the possibility of going for the heroic tee shot -- so when I come off that green I'm just not paying close enough attention to the next hole. And I think 17 suffers in the general opinion because of that.

As for me, with no other courses to choose from I'd definitely do a 5-5 split between Bandon Dunes and the Trails. I like 'em both about the same, for different reasons. Personally, I do tend to feel a bit of the "hole in the middle" when I play the Trails, because 8, 9 and 10 just aren't my favorite holes to play at the resort. They're fine, but just don't get me all that amped up. Once I get to 11 I perk up a bit, because I really enjoy hitting that tee shot. From there on in I like the course very much.

[George Freeman]

thought these might add to the discussion...(sorry for fewer pictures of BD; weather was not cooperating that day)

[Ryan Admussen]

well now that that's all cleared up 

[Joe Bentham]

Ross

Never thought of 17 as a aesthetic let down.  Might be the prettiest set of tee boxes on the resort, right on the corner of the bluff.  The views south from most of 17 have been reopened in the last year through a lot of hard work by the maintenance staff.  Can you imagine the view from there once the par 3 course is in just south of there?   

[Ronald Montesano]

Wow, aesthetic letdown?  High standards...I think 16 pales next to 17 and it has three times the length to make its case.

[Ross Waldorf]

Joe (and Ronald): Well, I didn't actually say "aesthetic letdown" exactly, although I probably implied it by the way I wrote my post. And I agree with you that those tee boxes are spectacular. I'm sure it'll be even more incredible once the new par 3 course goes in. I suppose that I'm thinking more about heading back inland in general, and perhaps that the hole is a bit more ambiguous than the couple you've just played -- 15 and 16 do tend to be rather bold, heroic-looking holes.

I'm just trying to understand why 17 seems to get less love when discussing Bandon Dunes. As you've probably noticed -- I'm one of the people who really doesn't get why Bandon Dunes often gets shortchanged on this site when compared to the Trails. Trying to figure that out. And I really like the Trails. But I'll stick happily with an equal number of plays on each if faced with that choice.

[Matt_Ward]

The issue for me with BT is that the opening series of holes -- thru #5 are first rate. Ditto the closing stretch from say the approach to #13 green. It's the middle that really loses its punch.

The issue for me with BD is that the concluding two holes are not really exciting.

I like the stretch in the midpart of the front nine and a few holes on the back. But there are also filler holes which don't have the same ummmph as the others.

Sum it all for me -- it's rather a close call but frankly I would not include either of the two layouts among my personal top 25 public because of the shortcomings I mentioned.

[Ian_Linford]

I have been to Bandon once and honestly I have not made up my mind which one I would play if I had to choose one.  For those who are confused, here are IMO the two top reasons why Bandon Trails is preferred over Bandon Dunes in this forum:

1. The architect. No, not everyone is biased towards Doak and C&C, but subconsciously it does make a difference.  I know it does for me.  When I play a course designed by someone I like, I tend to appreciate the strategy more.

2. The beauty.  PD blows BD away in this category.  BD has several holes that just feel bland, with some grass-faced bunkers that do not have the aesthetics the other courses enjoy.  In fact, many of the most fascinating holes from a strategic standpoint often look quite plain (such as 11).  Being next to two of the most beautifully shaped courses I have played, this knocks it down in most lists around here.

[Wyatt Halliday]

I take issue with the whole members course/resort course thing.

If someone doesn't figure out that this isn't Doral by the time they hit that first approach on the property, then it's time to turn that ass around and go to the house. Also, Isn't the reason why Bandon is so successful is because we leave our members course and journey to the edge of Oregon? Let's face it, the place isn't right next door.

I also think it's comical that people cite how uninspiring certain stretches of the property are. I know the edict of this thread is to seperate good from great, but the worst 18 hole combination at Bandon beats just about any other resort in a Pepsi challenge.

....and yes Sims, I have successfully removed the shit from my afternoon Cheerios.

[Ben Sims]

I take issue with the whole members course/resort course thing.

If someone doesn't figure out that this isn't Doral by the time they hit that first approach on the property, then it's time to turn that ass around and go to the house. Also, Isn't the reason why Bandon is so successful is because we leave our members course and journey to the edge of Oregon? Let's face it, the place isn't right next door.

I also think it's comical that people cite how uninspiring certain stretches of the property are. I know the edict of this thread is to seperate good from great, but the worst 18 hole combination at Bandon beats just about any other resort in a Pepsi challenge.

....and yes Sims, I have successfully removed the shit from my afternoon Cheerios.

First of all, I'm a Georgia boy and I hate Pepsi.  Secondly, you won the bet and I now have an LSU putter grip.  What are you all upset about!?!? 

Thirdly, I agree with your post 100%.  That's why you're my homie.

Anyone who eschews BD completely in favor of BT should be examined.  Sure Bandon Dunes wouldn't be nearly what it is without the Pacific Ocean.  Sure it isn't as architecturally interesting as C&C's effort.  But I sure as hell would hope that a firm as decorated and experienced as C&C could build something special in a place like Bandon.

Where else in the US had pot bunkers, gorse and fescue with wind and ocean before BD came along?  Don't worry, I'll wait.