[Jonathan Cummings]

All right you rules gurus out there.  Can someone point me to an official USGA reference on how in a tournament to treat someone without a handicap?  I seem to remember they are assigned a scratch handicap until they have 5 scores.  I may well be wrong.  Anybody know where to find he governing reference?

Thanks,
JC

[Adam Clayman]

JC, I can't imagine there is a governing reference. The Handicap and Tournament chair should know the right thing to do for their club.

While  you've been vague with details, anyone who doesn't have an index, and now wants to play in an event that requires one, is either being very rude or trying to pull something off.

My sense would be to ding'em until they can prove their worth. In other words, play'em at scratch or tell them to come back when they have enough scores.

Why should the committees bend over backwards for someone who doesn't respect everyone else, and the game, enough to keep their handicap?

 Protecting the field from poachers justifies the harsh reality.

[Bill_McBride]

JC, I can't imagine there is a governing reference. The Handicap and Tournament chair should know the right thing to do for their club.

While  you've been vague with details, anyone who doesn't have an index, and now wants to play in an event that requires one, is either being very rude or trying to pull something off.

My sense would be to ding'em until they can prove their worth. In other words, play'em at scratch or tell them to come back when they have enough scores.

Why should the committees bend over backwards for someone who doesn't respect everyone else, and the game, enough to keep their handicap?

 Protecting the field from poachers justifies the harsh reality.

Second the motion.   Have to protect the field.

[Brent Hutto]

While I agree that it's nuts to expect to play in a handicap-based game with no handicap index, please don't insert the non-sequitur"respect...the game" into the discussion. There are too many doofuses as it is who think that a handicap index is in some way fundamental to the game of golf. I'd expect a little more enlightened view here in the Treehouse, no?

There is much, much more to playing golf than counting every stroke and typing it into a computer to get your precious Handicap Index, precise to a tenth of a stroke. Mercy, please.

[Bill_McBride]

While I agree that it's nuts to expect to play in a handicap-based game with no handicap index, please don't insert the non-sequitur"respect...the game" into the discussion. There are too many doofuses as it is who think that a handicap index is in some way fundamental to the game of golf. I'd expect a little more enlightened view here in the Treehouse, no?

There is much, much more to playing golf than counting every stroke and typing it into a computer to get your precious Handicap Index, precise to a tenth of a stroke. Mercy, please.

Sorry Brent, but a fun round is a fun round, a tournament is a tournament.  What if the guy wins with a phony handicap?

[Brent Hutto]

Bill,

No way I let the guy in without an index from some recognized source.

My quibble is that saying he shows disrespect for the game by not carrying an index. He may be trying to pull one over on the field and on the players with legitimate handicaps but one can have the utmost respect for the game of golf while not participating the USGA Handicap System. But if so, one must have the courage of ones convictions and not expect to be invited into games where such an index is required. That's just silly.

Maybe this will be the year when I finally cut myself free of that idiotic "Every Stroke Is Sacred" system. In my case, it would mean no longer playing the 9.30am weekend games at my club. Which is the only reason I've not bailed years ago. But it looks more worth it with each passing year.

[Carl Nichols]

Maybe the guy simply hasn't played enough rounds recently to have a handicap, in which case he wouldn't either be "very rude" or "trying to pull something off."   

[Mike McGuire]

What if plays like a plus 4 ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I agree. No handicap index means no play in a tournament of whatever kind.

What is the percentage of people who play golf in the USA who do NOT have a handicap index? Is there an official estimate on that ?

[Adam Clayman]

Respecting the game is different than honoring the sport. Agree about the doofuss levels but if someone is interested in competeing in the `game`, which is tournanent golf there's no reason to give them a slide their first time out. Plus JC hangs in some pretty sophistacted circles.

[Brent Hutto]

I agree. No handicap index means no play in a tournament of whatever kind.

What is the percentage of people who play golf in the USA who do NOT have a handicap index? Is there an official estimate on that ?

Many years ago (mid-1990's) one of the magazine's compared the number of people in various USGA Handicap registries and some sort of estimate of the number of "core golfers" or some such. That percentage was something well below half of self-identified "golfers" having a USGA index. Sounds about right to me.

[jeffwarne]

Maybe the guy simply hasn't played enough rounds recently to have a handicap, in which case he wouldn't either be "very rude" or "trying to pull something off."  

Carl,
You're right-and so is Adam.
Many times a guy attempts to "estimate" his handicap.
The problem is you get a guy who was once a player, hasn't played lately and says he's a 15. (based on his recent 87)
Then he makes 13 pars (because he's still got some game) and a few high numbers.
I've let guys play in member events under such circumstances before, cut them in half and still got burned. (and the players weren't cheaters, just unaware of how handicaps are formed and why they're important-and that even though they're rusty, they still think like a good player).

[Roger Wolfe]

After a member guest calcutta disaster one year (eg... 16 handicap hitting a 5 iron to 5 feet on a 210 yard uphill par 3)... we made a strict rule... USGA handicap or you are scratch.  Its worked great so far.  Tough love... but fair to everyone else.

[Brent Hutto]

I played in a club match-play tournament one year, hacker flight. Got paired against a new member who had joined about a month earlier. I was a 18 handicap and had to give him one stroke or something like that. So as he starts out parring every hole he mentions that at his old club he had developed the shanks. Handicap went from single digits to 20-something in a few months. Couldn't break 100 shanking every short iron he hit. Quit playing, couldn't stand the shanks.

After half a year away from the game he takes a few lessons, starts back playing, joins our club. They gave him his handicap from the old club and before the match-play he posts something like 102-98-94-90-89 and then plays me in the first round. I conceded him a 5-footer for birdie on the ninth hole to take him back to even par and put me 6 or 7 down at the turn. I somehow won a couple holes before je finished me off by hitting a long, blind bunker shot to six inches on the fourteenth hole and tapping in for yet another par. I think he made like 3-4 bogeys over 14 holes, playing off 19.

Then the rest of the story. We decided to play the last four holes which he plays something like double, double, triple, double and posts an 81 in the computer. Yeah, it was the shanks all right. Shanks for nothing, pal.

[Carl Nichols]

Maybe the guy simply hasn't played enough rounds recently to have a handicap, in which case he wouldn't either be "very rude" or "trying to pull something off."  

Carl,
You're right-and so is Adam.
Many times a guy attempts to "estimate" his handicap.
The problem is you get a guy who was once a player, hasn't played lately and says he's a 15. (based on his recent 87)
Then he makes 13 pars (because he's still got some game) and a few high numbers.
I've let guys play in member events under such circumstances before, cut them in half and still got burned. (and the players weren't cheaters, just unaware of how handicaps are formed and why they're important-and that even though they're rusty, they still think like a good player).

Note that I didn't say that someone without a handicap should always (or even ever) be allowed to play in an event, just that there are lots of non-nefarious reasons why a person might not have one. 

When we played in a primarily members' event this summer in Northern Ireland, my buddy and I both self-adjusted our (U.S.) handicaps down to prevent any possible suggestion that we were sandbaggers.

[Jason Topp]

There are times when you need to handicap someone. For me, it comes up often with work related groups that include people that play five times a year.  Requiring such people to compete at scratch would not be fun for anyone.  Furthermore, sandbagging is not exactly a great career move.

 Dean Knuth came up with the following system for such situations:

"Philosophically," adds Knuth, "you shouldn't handicap based just on the round you're playing." Knuth and the USGA Handicap Research Team went to work to find what number in a golfer's last 20 scores most closely correlated to his USGA Handicap. VOILA! They discovered your second best score of the past year on a course with a par of 70 or higher as the "magic number" that comes remarkably close to providing an accurate handicap, within plus-or-minus one stroke. All you do is take that score, subtract 70 if you're a man, 73 if you're a woman, and that's your handicap for the day (e.g., 85-70=15).

http://www.popeofslope.com/guidelines/handicaps.html

[Jonathan Cummings]

Geez - you guys are psychos!  If anybody knows just give me the governing reference.  I can't find it searching the USGA website.

The specific issue concerns two women who use to play golf regularly.  They both quit to have families and after ten years are about to play in a local tournaments (neither has played one round in years).  They were once 30 handicaps and someone is saying that they need to play scratch until they have 5 posted scores.  Seems way too harsh to me but I was wondering what the USGA says.

J

[Jason McNamara]

Keep looking - they used to have ideas for all sorts of cases - like a guy who's a righty starts playing lefty, etc.  I think in the case you describe the committee could *at its sole discretion* allow the players reasonably appropriate hcps based if nothing else off their last hcps, but was under no requirement to allow such.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Jason - that's exactly my recommendation to them.  I was just looking for some authoritative backup.  J

[Gary Slatter]

I played in a club match-play tournament one year, hacker flight. Got paired against a new member who had joined about a month earlier. I was a 18 handicap and had to give him one stroke or something like that. So as he starts out parring every hole he mentions that at his old club he had developed the shanks. Handicap went from single digits to 20-something in a few months. Couldn't break 100 shanking every short iron he hit. Quit playing, couldn't stand the shanks.

After half a year away from the game he takes a few lessons, starts back playing, joins our club. They gave him his handicap from the old club and before the match-play he posts something like 102-98-94-90-89 and then plays me in the first round. I conceded him a 5-footer for birdie on the ninth hole to take him back to even par and put me 6 or 7 down at the turn. I somehow won a couple holes before je finished me off by hitting a long, blind bunker shot to six inches on the fourteenth hole and tapping in for yet another par. I think he made like 3-4 bogeys over 14 holes, playing off 19.

Then the rest of the story. We decided to play the last four holes which he plays something like double, double, triple, double and posts an 81 in the computer. Yeah, it was the shanks all right. Shanks for nothing, pal.

Did you keep reminding him of the shanks? Usually it can bring them back.

[JohnV]

No handicap means no play in the net portion of the tournament.  If there is a gross prize, he could play for that.

Or, if you really want to let him play and he can provide a minimum of 5 recent attested scorecards, let him play and figure his handicap from the best differential of the bunch.  (Differential = (Score - CourseRating) * 113 / Slope)

As for those who estimate, many times they don't count their penalties etc.  We had a woman I worked with play in a league.  At the start of the season, they asked those without handicaps to estimate their score.  She said 45 for 9 holes.  Turned out she hit it about 45 times, but had at least 6 penalty strokes and a couple of whiffs for nearer to 55.

[Jason McNamara]

The USGA touches on this at http://tinyurl.com/yezovsw - maybe that will help.

[Jason Connor]

Geez - you guys are psychos!  If anybody knows just give me the governing reference.  I can't find it searching the USGA website.

The specific issue concerns two women who use to play golf regularly.  They both quit to have families and after ten years are about to play in a local tournaments (neither has played one round in years).  They were once 30 handicaps and someone is saying that they need to play scratch until they have 5 posted scores.  Seems way too harsh to me but I was wondering what the USGA says.

J

But why would they go from not playing at all to tournament golf?

Would you go play a few rounds first?  I sure would.

Even if they want to start playing again regularly with a women's group, they can play a few practice rounds within the golf group structure.

Golf is a game of a lifetime.  Asking someone to play 5 times before entering into official competitions isn't asking too much.

[Robert_Ball]

Here you go JC.

http://www.usga.org/handicapping/articles_resources/Handicapping-The-Unhandicapped/

I've used the "Callaway" system several times and I find that 98% of the time it just returns a net score within a stroke or two of par.  So those players without handicaps are rarely "in the money" which helps avoid a lot of arguments.

Robert

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