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Jud_T

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Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2009, 01:46:57 PM »
jerry- i agree, but who is really an unbiased independant critic of GCA at this point? Aside from having beers with Tom Doak, I'm not sure who's out there.....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2009, 01:55:36 PM »
To anyone who has ever had the privilege - have a beer with Ran and see how someone bases an opinion on facts that you can understand - doesn't mean that you have to agree but at least you will understand the reason for the opinion unlike some guy who tells you his opinion is valid because of who he is. 

Jud_T

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Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2009, 02:02:47 PM »
I hope to have beers with Ran someday, and I think he does a fabulous job relative to the competition, but you can't say he isn't also subject to a wee bit of the "let's not upset our private club host by telling it like it is that his beloved home course is really a dogtrack" bias....I'm not talking about guys who gently imply that this or that could be a touch better, I'm talking about somebody who isn't afraid to say "This place is the most overpriced, overhyped piece of crap this side of the mississippi.  Anyone who thinks this is good design should immediately hock their clubs and take up bowling.  The world of golf would be better served if they plowed it under and built a parking lot."....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2009, 02:17:15 PM »
Sorry fellas, it's a cruel hard fact of life with most magazines - travel, wine, golf - to mention a few.  Most writer's views are softened by editors for pure econmonic reasons.  JC

Jonathan:

I'm going to call b.s. on this claim, at least at the level of national magazines.  (Maybe you're right about regional mags, I've never dealt with them.)  I do not think the editors of the national publications "soften" or "edit" reviews, so much as the writers "soften" themselves believing that's what their editors want.

Do they really take your words and edit them without your permission?

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2009, 02:35:56 PM »
Has a review in a major golf publication ever really "panned" a high profile course?

Most of the little write ups about courses in the "places to visit" section are ridiculous - like 4 or 5 star ratings for courses that should be 2 or 3.

A lot of "Twittering" and "Blogging" was done about Liberty National which was very negative, but I think that might be a bit different.

Did anything hit the GD or GM pages on LN that was completely honest?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2009, 03:02:19 PM »
Was there anything even written about Liberty National in GOLF or GOLF DIGEST?

One would suspect that, like the Trump courses, anything written in a NYC publication about Liberty National would skew toward the positive side of things ... partly because of NYC pride, and partly because the owner has $$$ and magazines need $$$.  But if there was anything written about Liberty National at all, it was probably a "special advertising section".  It's private and it's way out of the league of most subscribers from a financial perspective, so it's generally the kind of topic they avoid altogether.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2009, 03:04:07 PM »
Jud: You are way off base when you lump Ran's Courses By Country with commercial publications - there aren't any advertisers on here and that is part of what makes this forum credible.  Your premise that in order to be credible you have to be negative is simply beyond my comprehension.

JC: People are spending their hard earned money on this silly game we play and love and they are looking to the golf writers for an honest opinion.  If the courses are being given dishonest reviews in order that the writers get paid and the advertisers can make money then the only one getting screwed is the person who reads the magazine.  Maybe this is one reason why magazines and newspapers are dying - you get can better and more honest information from other sources.

Kenny Baer

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Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2009, 03:05:28 PM »
Rob,

I would agree that rarely if ever do you see a negative review of a golf course in a magazine; but...the only courses that get reviewed are typically at least decent.  They aren't reviewing some dog track; and although it may not be great it is often not pure crap.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2009, 03:06:19 PM »
Jud,
Some golf courses rise to a level that precludes them from being categorized as 'dog tracks', no matter how brutal the reviewer. Subsequently,  the candidates in the 'Courses By Country' section have reached that plateau before being critiqued for this site.

This line from the Devil's Pulpit/Devil's Paintbrush review illustrates how a well-worded review beats a trash job, hands down:
 The bunkering at the Pulpit is well done and each one is where it should be. The Paintbrush, on the other hand, is more of a dog’s breakfast: bunkers are scattered here, there and everywhere.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2009, 03:12:04 PM »
I once wrote a fair number of golf course "reviews" for a regional magazine. One of the reasons I stopped was because it was impossible to give an honest assessment. Anything that was remotely negative had to be spun into a positive. Even something as innocuous as a lack of a range would get turned into, "while xx doesn't have a range, there is one only a few miles down the road ... and the acreage that the range would have occupied was incorporated into the course layout, giving the architect more options in the routing. Blah, blah, blah ...."

Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2009, 03:26:28 PM »
Let's assume Mr. Keiser invites you to play Old Macdonald and you don't particularly care for it.  Do you tell him? Do you tell Tom?  Do you bite the hand that feeds?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2009, 03:41:42 PM »
I once wrote a fair number of golf course "reviews" for a regional magazine. One of the reasons I stopped was because it was impossible to give an honest assessment. Anything that was remotely negative had to be spun into a positive.

Dan C:

I've got the same question for you I had for Jonathan:  did they really edit your words like that, or did they ask you to do edit your words, or did they just tell you to stress the positive from the beginning?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2009, 03:51:46 PM »
I would think that guys of the stature of Keiser and Doak would be happy to have an honest discussion of why certain design decisions were or weren't made etc...

as for the above posters and my comments, please read the entire post and don't just get your panties in a bunch....
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 03:56:46 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2009, 04:31:25 PM »
Steve: Doak and Keiser don't feed you - the people who read your publication feed you and if you give bogus reviews then they won't read your magazine - no circulation means no advertising dollars.  The better question is what makes your opinion credible - what do you know about the subject that makes your opinion worth more than the paper it is written on? 

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2009, 04:41:33 PM »

I would think that guys of the stature of Keiser and Doak would be happy to have an honest discussion of why certain design decisions were or weren't made etc...

as for the above posters and my comments, please read the entire post and don't just get your panties in a bunch....

What's the matter, can't you take a little criticism? 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2009, 04:44:46 PM »
I can certainly take a little criticism, but I never lumped Ran in with Golf Digest, I simply suggested that PERHAPS he, although not taking advertising dollars, was also a guest at many of these private establishments and is unlikely to do more than gentle criticism of a course he dislikes...
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 04:48:55 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2009, 04:50:45 PM »
Two things...

#1---I've said this before and I am saying it again...this type of stuff sounds just like the analyst/investment banker/client conflicts of interest inherent in Wall Street around the 1999/2000 time frame.  With the exception that there is no regulator to investigate these conflicts and advise clients/readers of these magazines.

#2---I think Jerry is really spot on regarding a lot of his points.  A lot of them!

Along these lines...what raters/critics do you guys think are the most credible?  I know Ran's reviews are good and I love reading and learning from them.  I don't sense any major conflicts in them at all.  Other than this site and him, what others do you think give the most reliable and trustworthy information regarding golf course ratings?  I don't really mean which ones line up with your personal point of view, but which ones are honest and forthright concerning their opinions?

Thanks!

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2009, 04:58:22 PM »
Rob,

I would agree that rarely if ever do you see a negative review of a golf course in a magazine; but...the only courses that get reviewed are typically at least decent.  They aren't reviewing some dog track; and although it may not be great it is often not pure crap.

Kenny - You are correct and I think this is where things get tricky - If you are out reviewing a course that is on, for example, The Golf Digest Top 100 Publics in America (or something), it is probably a "good" course, but what if there are 3 or 4 holes with glaring mistakes in your opinion as an author, do you say anything?

I think most of the golf mags, like the wine mags (aside from Parkers), tread very carefully around the negative so they do not compromise ad dollars which means the audience has to read between the lines to get the "real" story. We always hear about "the signature hole", "the great stretch of holes", etc. Rarely do you read about the hole on the front and back that are clearly "weak sisters".

Darius Oliver wrote some fairly frank commentary in Project Golf USA which was kind of fun to read - he didn't beat a course into the ground but did point out areas where it may have been lacking or features that may not have made sense. He was, however, pretty down on both of the Trump Courses and there high rating which was interesting.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2009, 04:59:50 PM »
I can certainly take a little criticism, but I never lumped Ran in with Golf Digest, I simply suggested that PERHAPS he, although not taking advertising dollars, was also a guest at many of these private establishments and is unlikely to do more than gentle criticism of a course he dislikes...

I was commenting on the irony of your first two posts.

Steve,
Why would you? It's obvious, if you don't like OM your opinions are useless anyway.  ;D

But really, if you didn't like OM, or any other course that was well crafted and offered thoughtful, strategic play, it wouldn't be because the course was bad, it just wouldn't be your cup of tea. I don't know what good it would do to tell the owner or the builder that you didn't like it.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2009, 06:18:39 PM »
Arguably this is reflected in the Pebble Beach v. Cypress Point Club debate. 

Also, in a perverted way in the Augusta National Golf Club debate - easy to criticize since one is unlikely to receive an invitation there. 

Then again, it is poor form to complain about the toughness of the steak when prepared by the host.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2009, 07:40:24 PM »
Arguably this is reflected in the Pebble Beach v. Cypress Point Club debate. 

Also, in a perverted way in the Augusta National Golf Club debate - easy to criticize since one is unlikely to receive an invitation there. 

Then again, it is poor form to complain about the toughness of the steak when prepared by the host.

Mike

Bogey

Not if the proper context is sorted.  This site is pretty useless if guys can't make comparative analysis.  To me, its really an unwritten rule that we are often talking about the best of the best and therefore terms like "dog track" don't apply.  These courses are all good.  The difference is what pushes an individual's buttons.  I folks would understand this from the start there wouldn't be any risk of hurt feelings when a fair and even handed critique is given.  Besides, who gives a rats ass if a guest is not super enthusiastic about your club?  Its like some sort of bad middle school dream to waste time worrying about that kind of shit. 

So far as "professional" reviews go, they are nearly always a waste of time to read because they are not even handed.  No place is perfect so there should be no such thing as a perfect review.  When I want to learn about something, I want to learn the full picture.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2009, 07:42:33 PM »
Rating numbers (such as a 1-10 scale) come to the rescue. They are very useful for precisely the reason that anything can be read into words and anything can be spun into a positive with words. But numbers don't lie. If I make the course a 4 it's a 4 and no amount of positive writing will make the reader believe it's a 6 or an 8.

So the numbers are there to keep the reviewer honest. But, of course, they do not tell the story why the course is bad or good. So the words are equally important to explain the rationale behind the number.

I believe this duality of words and numbers are one of the reasons why Tom Doak's confidential guide is so well liked.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2009, 08:09:27 PM »
Rating numbers (such as a 1-10 scale) come to the rescue. They are very useful for precisely the reason that anything can be read into words and anything can be spun into a positive with words. But numbers don't lie. If I make the course a 4 it's a 4 and no amount of positive writing will make the reader believe it's a 6 or an 8.

So the numbers are there to keep the reviewer honest. But, of course, they do not tell the story why the course is bad or good. So the words are equally important to explain the rationale behind the number.

I believe this duality of words and numbers are one of the reasons why Tom Doak's confidential guide is so well liked.

Ulrich

Ulrich

While I agree that some sort of final grade is important to add to the text - just like it was in school - I personally don't like the 1-10 because I don't believe there are ten levels of discernible quality in courses.  In fact, there are  probably less than five once we chuck out the courses really don't need to be rated. Meaning they are local courses and a number assigned to them is meaningless when a guy is paying $20 or $30. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2009, 08:21:37 PM »
Arguably this is reflected in the Pebble Beach v. Cypress Point Club debate. 

Also, in a perverted way in the Augusta National Golf Club debate - easy to criticize since one is unlikely to receive an invitation there. 

Then again, it is poor form to complain about the toughness of the steak when prepared by the host.

Mike

Bingo.  Pebble gets much more slagging here then Cypress and I'm sure Cypress isn't that much better.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Matt_Ward

Re: Are golf course reviews biased
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2009, 10:26:13 PM »
Dan C:

Amen to what you said.

What many people on this site have no clue about is that regional magazines often times are captive to an advertising world in which the facilities themselves are the main customers. Regional mags often times will throw forward "glowing" accounts because of what they perceive as their self interest.

When I edited Jersey Golfer -- my publisher and I took a different tact. We did publish no-holds-barred comments on various courses and certainly instructed those who wrote for us to do likewise. The mag lasted for 17 years under the same publisher but that's not where the industry is headed. Smaller pubs routinely get eaten by bigger pubs and you get editorial commentary that is masked throug advertorial promotion of one type or the other.

The best way for open ended comments is likely through blog sites like this one and others.

Rob:

The national mags have much more freedom than you might surmise. If you were to take your argument to a logical end conclusion among major media -- you might say The NY Times will pull punches on its new stories / editorials because of a unfavorable story on something that might have happened within the General Electric family or the Exxon family. The largest pubs have the wherewithal to be quite independent if they wish. Frankly, Digest could do a better job if it employed a better methodology to the way it rates courses now. The system they use -- not the wherewithal to provide such comments -- is what lies at their doorstep in my mind.

Tom D:

Since you admitted your own ignorance at the regional level -- it's fairly understood by both editors and those who write at the level for such comments to be more positive in some way or manner. I know the mag I edited did not go that direction and we were quite successful in staying afloat independently for quite some time. Were certain courses pissed off that they didn't get glowing accounts. No doubt they were -- because they had this idea that whatever they provided was great when the reality said otherwise. As a general rule -- regional mags have less of a circulation size and ad pool from which to maintain their existence -- the few that went the other direction are likely in the very small minority where total editorial freedom to critique as need be really exist today. That's sad but given the shrinking size of media outlets along traditional media (such as mags and the like) to be expected.

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