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[David Stamm]

So often there are courses that are described like the following: "If it were somewhere else, it would be lauded." Meaning that because there are so many other quality courses that are in the area, it doesn't get the praise it deserves. Now, let's reverse this. What courses BENEFIT from surrounding the surrounding competition. A course that comes to mind might be Poppy Hills. I don't want to get into debating the merits of Poppy, as we have discussed it many times and I do like the course in general, but I wonder if Poppy would even be known if it weren't in Pebble Beach. What are some others that might fit this criteria?

[Bill Brightly]

Shinnecock being so close to NGLA?     (Just kidding.)

How about Mid Pines, Southern Pines and Pine Needles?

[Ben Sims]

Harding Park?

Southampton?

Brentwood CC?

Pure guesses on my part.

[Sean Arble]

David

Don't all (well, nearly all) of the best courses benefit from their location?  I would have thought that was one of the reasons the locations were chosen in the first place.

Ciao

[Mac Plumart]

I've never played them, but what about Whistling Straits and...oh what are the other Dye's called up there?  Anyway, are they all four world class or just one or two?

[Kalen Braley]

Sheep Ranch..

And I will say this to qualify this.  Would anyone travel to the remote coast of Bandon to play this course if the other courses at the Resort weren't there? 

[David Stamm]

David

Don't all (well, nearly all) of the best courses benefit from their location?  I would have thought that was one of the reasons the locations were chosen in the first place.

Ciao

Sean, yes. But I'm asking what courses benefit from the other courses that surround it and sort "draft" off of the other courses reputations.

[Carl Nichols]

Winged Foot East?

[Kalen Braley]

Friars Head

- Mayday Malone

[Matt_Ward]

Maidstone

Quaker Ridge

Baltusrol Lower

[Jud Tigerman]

Pinehurst 1,3,4,5,6,7,8
Ballybunion new
Whistling Straights Irish

[Anthony Gray]

  Spyglass

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Lake Merced CC, Cal Club, Harding Park all benifit by the reputation of SFGC and Olyimpic Club Lake.  I think Spyglass greatness transends its neighborhood. Most of the courses in Orlando would be hardpressed to even by heard of if not for Disneyland. I like Pinehurst 1,3,4,5,6,7,8. lol Deal, Princes.

[Sean Arble]

I would say anything in the Pinehurst area rides the tails of #2. 

Any course near St Andrews rides the tails of TOC. 

Ireland is a bit unusual in that many folks think it can be covered in one or two goes.  So I would say that practically all the courses in Ireland ride the tails Ballybunion, Lahinch, Co Down, Portmarnock and Portrush.  Without those five courses golf tourism in Ireland would be way down. 

Deal and Princes are probably dragged along a bit by Sandwich. 

Ciao

[Jamie Barber]

Deal and Princes are probably dragged along a bit by Sandwich.  

I take the opposing view, that both would be held in higher regard if they weren't next door to RSG (aka the New at St Andrew's).

How about Gleneagles PGA course? Or some of the lesser St.Andrew's courses? I think these get played because of where they are next to, not entirely on their own merits

[Jamie Barber]

It wasn't the question exactly, but there are plenty of courses where the course doesn't match the setting (Old Head, Nefyn)

[Scott Warren]

To me the OP speaks of un-exciting courses that get trumped up more than they should simply because they are near a great (or many great) course(s). Are you saying Deal fits that mould, Sean?

If so, I'd disagree. I think Deal and Sandwich are a fantastic odd couple.

[Jud Tigerman]

I think Pine Needles stands on it's own merit...

[Mike Policano]

Essex County Country Club in New Jersey is an excellent course that sits in the shadow of Baltusrol and Plainfield and the greater shadow of the greater New York area.  Many in NJ consider ECCC's back nine to be the second best in NJ. If ECCC was located with less celebrated neighbors, it would be more widely known.

[Tom_Doak]

I would second the nomination of Spyglass Hill.  No way it's a $300 golf course if Pebble Beach and Cypress Point are not around the corner.

[Dan_Callahan]

I would say there's no way Ekwanok would be as exclusive as it is if it wasn't for it's incredible location in downtown Manchester surrounded by the mountains of Vermont.

[Sean Arble]

Deal and Princes are probably dragged along a bit by Sandwich.  

I take the opposing view, that both would be held in higher regard if they weren't next door to RSG (aka the New at St Andrew's).

How about Gleneagles PGA course? Or some of the lesser St.Andrew's courses? I think these get played because of where they are next to, not entirely on their own merits

Jamie

You could be right about Princes, but I have my doubts.  Folks don't seem to go for the type of course it is - solid golf throughout without many terribly high or low points.  Folks seem to want and expect more flash - I think this is a terrible shame, but none the less, I think Princes can charge that bit extra because of Sandwich.  I can accept that Deal has some special bits to it which raise the quality a bit higher than Princes - though I prefer Princes anyway.  Deal is it is NEVER a £100 course.  They get an extra £25 easy because what is likely the best course in England down the road.  OK, some believe that Deal is in the class of Sandwich, but I think this is so far off the mark its hard to know where to begin.  As evidence of the bolstered status, I don't think Deal is any better better than Rye, in fact I think Rye has its measure, but Rye is cheaper.  Why?  Because there is no Sandwich to drag prices up.  This in no way means Princes or Deal are poor or indifferent courses - only that Sandwich is exceptional - I really mean exceptional.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

But why so fussed with the price they ask, Sean? Is that the measure of a course? Of course not. Royal Wimbledon at 75 pound visitor rate is as much as Nth Berwick and 10 quid more than St Enodoc. Why? because it is in one of the most wealthy and posh corners of th British Isles.

There is so much to do with setting prices that chipping a course on the green fee it asks (and gets plenty of takers...) has, IMO, very little correlation to the qustion at hand - ie. the reputation being over and above what is reasonable based on the nearby options.

I do hope you will get down to play Deal again sooner rather than later. I mean no disrespect to Princes (which, incidentally at 80 quid/40 quid for a visitor/guest is either a bit cheaper or a bit more expensive than Deal depending whether you have a member with you or not), but that you say you prefer Princes to Deal, to me, suggsts your memories of Deal must surely be hazy.

I do agree Deal is not in Sandwich's class. I am still shaking my head at how thoroughly my mind got blown at Sandwich during Buda. I am gutted I missed the two courtesies immediately after that Mark C played in. Truly, I'd give Sandwich a 7-3 10RS against anything I have ever played. It is a seriously amazing golf course.

[Sean Arble]

But why so fussed with the price they ask, Sean? Is that the measure of a course? Of course not. Royal Wimbledon at 75 pound visitor rate is as much as Nth Berwick and 10 quid more than St Enodoc. Why? because it is in one of the most wealthy and posh corners of th British Isles.

There is so much to do with setting prices that chipping a course on the green fee it asks (and gets plenty of takers...) has, IMO, very little correlation to the qustion at hand - ie. the reputation being over and above what is reasonable based on the nearby options.

I do hope you will get down to play Deal again sooner rather than later. I mean no disrespect to Princes (which, incidentally at 80 quid/40 quid for a visitor/guest is either a bit cheaper or a bit more expensive than Deal depending whether you have a member with you or not), but that you say you prefer Princes to Deal, to me, suggsts your memories of Deal must surely be hazy.

I do agree Deal is not in Sandwich's class. I am still shaking my head at how thoroughly my mind got blown at Sandwich during Buda. I am gutted I missed the two courtesies immediately after that Mark C played in. Truly, I'd give Sandwich a 7-3 10RS against anything I have ever played. It is a seriously amazing golf course.

Scott

You know my take - I am looking for value, fun and quality.  It may be a cop out, but I just don't know enough about architecture and that many courses to call which are better and why.  I tend to go for groupings of class and within that class it doesn't really matter if some folks think one is better than another because its down to opinion.  By the same token, if I think two courses are in the same quality class and one costs twice as much as the other I ask why.  Most often its down to me being wrong about the courses being grouped in the same class for whatever reason or a course charges too much money and this would adversely effect my willingness to return.  There are just too many good courses out there to pay over the odds.  I think I am well known for generally not praising Open courses for two reasons.  I think they tend to be over-priced and there are loads of other courses just as good in terms of fun and quality.  There are several Open courses I wouldn't walk up the street to play for the price they ask - they just aren't that good when I look at the big picture of whats available.   

Ciao

[mike_beene]

Torrey Pines

[Jamie Barber]

Sean,

Take your point about the prices. I think the visitor rates for Prince's are too high. I wouldn't pay the visitors rate for Deal, but it's good value as a member's guest.

I think Sandwich is excellent, and see why most prefer Deal to Prince's, but I really like Prince's. As you said, no real highs or lows, but a solid test and tranquil setting.

Next time you're down we should have a game!

[TEPaul]

Any golf course that's in the vicinity of Fernandina Beach Municipal GC.

FBMGC is in North Florida right underneath the Georgia state line and it was apparently designed by Timucuan Indian, Tommy Birdsong, but now that we know HH Barker took a train from New York to Georgia in Dec. 1910 it is quite likely that Barker, considered to be the second best architect in America at the time, right behind C.B. Macdonald, it is very possible Barker designed the great Fernandina Beach Municipal or at least offered a sketch routing for it to the "White Men" who were about to rip off the Timucan Indians for its land.

[Sean Arble]

Sean,

Take your point about the prices. I think the visitor rates for Prince's are too high. I wouldn't pay the visitors rate for Deal, but it's good value as a member's guest.

I think Sandwich is excellent, and see why most prefer Deal to Prince's, but I really like Prince's. As you said, no real highs or lows, but a solid test and tranquil setting.

Next time you're down we should have a game!

Jamie

Lets face it, all of these clubs are great value as a guest because they are all very good courses, but that isn't really the entire question so far as I am concerned.  Because of their uniform quality I look elsewhere for what separates them and price is part of that equation. I know many disagree and thats fair enough.  

Yes, I would like to get back to Princes and Deal.  Maybe next year.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Sean, sounds like you have open arms at both Prince's and Deal, and Sandwich is only charging 60 quid as a winter rate. That to me sounds like the winter long weekend from heaven. You have the spare room at my house at least one night.

I personally want to play Dunes/Shore at Prince's again... Let's tee something up!

[Tommy Williamsen]

In some ways course that are off the beaten path benefit from being ewmpte.  Bandon and Sand Hills may be prime examples.  It takes work to get there. But their location is part of the allure.  That is not necessarily true for all courses, however.  Greywalls may be an example of this.  Even though, from what I hear, the course is worth the trip.