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TEPaul

A most interesting hole that's sort of still there
« on: April 20, 2002, 06:02:46 AM »
Yesterday I walked around LuLu G.C. with Steve Sayers to look at the course, the beginnings of a Ron Forse restoration master plan with a good variety of Dallin aerials of LuLu from the 1920s in hand.

Lulu is the first course Donald Ross built in Pennsylvania (1912). As far as Steve (who has already done and impressive amount of research on the evolution of the course) knows  LuLu has not really had another architect come through it in 90 years. There is clearly a good bit of inhouse changes today from the 1920s Dallin aerials though.

But the routing seems to be completely intact with the exception of half of one hole--#12--presently about a 165-170yd downhill par 3 with the back tee within feet of the clubhouse. But on the aerial it's clear the original tee was about 90-100yds to the right of where it is now and was melded with the tee of #8 (one of Tommy Naccarato's all time favorite quirk holes!).

The green and the greenside bunkering appears to be about the same as originally designed but to my amazement the original hole to the green was a very recognizable variation of Tillinghast's "Reef Hole"!

It played to about 210 yds, moderately downhill with a distinct cant of the overall topography from left to right. Ross set a bunker-line into the cant of the ground on about a 45 degree diagonal from short right to long left which divided the substantial "run-up" fairway into two distinct sections creating Tillinghast's "reef effect"!

You can see the entire green orientation makes much more architectural sense from this angle and it appears the hole sits so naturally into sort of the "palm" of the natural landscape not unlike the unbelivably natural looking #3 at Lehigh except more canted at LuLu!

Even the way Ross arranged the "reef" bunker scheme is fascinating. The "throw of the ground" (as Tillinghast called it) creates one option but in this case it's much more of an intense play because the left/long side of the "reef" bunker scheme narrows in on the left near the green creating far less of a "throw" area onto the green than on Tillinghast's "Reef hole" design. And the bailout safe play is out to the left avoiding the "reef bunkers" but then requiring a pitch or chip over the "reef bunkers" (and running downhill) to the green making the hole a bit of a 3 1/2 as was Tillinghast's "Reef hole". The bailout safe play to the left and avoiding the "reef bunker" would also "throw" the ball toward the "reef bunker" because of the left to right cant of the natural topography.

But it seems there's another set of options that are opposite in style as one might actually be able to hook or draw a shot out away from the diagonal line of the "reef bunkers" and try to "hold" the ball into the left to right cant of the run-up and/or the green that way (to prevent the ball from naturally filtering right on the inside fairway or the green)!

But now the "reef bunkers" are gone and the fairways too and a parking lot with a hedge around it is in their place. Steve says that in the winter they sometimes play the hole from the original tee over the parking lot!

This was one cool hole--I've never seen anything like it and certainly not from Donald Ross! I suppose it could be called a " Ross Reverse Tillinghast Reef hole" somehow, but the bunker arrangement and the cant of the ground gives it some very different options and playablilities than Tillinghast's "Reef Hole'!

Any architect should come out and look at this because the green end is still the same and anyone can clearly see what the rest of it was. This kind of naturally canting landform is also so common that a hole like this could be just layed down on the ground with this entire "reef bunker" scheme added with the divided fairways!

Why a hole like this isn't more common I can't imagine! You can clearly see too that this kind of par 3 is also one of the more truly "strategic" par 3s that could ever be done!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2002, 12:33:50 PM »
Tom -

What is/was Tillie's "Reef Hole"?  Please describe.
The Ross variation sounds fascinating but I have no familiarity with the original.  Thanks.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2002, 12:57:34 PM »
Bob:

All I can tell you is there's a full page description and a full drawing of Tillinghast's "reef hole" in his book "A Course Beautiful" on page 95. If you don't have that book you should get it anyway as his writing and logic on many things on architecture is really good to have.

Tillinghast had some very interesting and sometimes unique ideas on architecture that were definitely his own. He was also a great proponent of real "Championship" design too which does not seem that well understood even by most of the GCA guys.

Tillinghast does say in the book he built a "reef hole" at Newport but I don't know Newport and so I don't know if its there or not or what it might look like.

In any case you can see from the drawing that the "reef hole" was a very long par 3 with basically two fairways created by a diagonal bunker scheme. Playing to the "outside" fairway (outside the "reef") was the short and conservative play and playing across the diagonal bunkers on the other side was a little more aggressive which had what he called a "throw" onto the green, obviously a running shot. The most difficult play would be to carry the fatherest part of the diagonal bunker line onto the green.

The "reef hole" of Tillinghast's seems to be basically a reverse redan type hole with the "reef" diagonal bunker scheme.

But what Ross did at LuLu seems even more interesting because he used basically a downhill reverse redan and then turned the "reef bunker" scheme the other way!! It seems to me the way Ross did it made all the options more intense with probably higher "shot values" all around.

Hopefully others know if Tillinghast or anyone else did some real "reef holes" and where they are or were.

It would seem to me that this kind of hole would be a great one today for a really long par 3 with the new increased distances maybe playing for good players and pros up to 275yds with a few interesting ground game runup options as was part of the original!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2002, 01:11:50 PM »
There's a photo on p. 104 of GeoffShac's "Golden Age of Golf Design" of Thomas's LACC's #11 but he calls it a "reverse redan".

Tillinghast's "reef hole" would seem to be somewhat similar to this except the safe play to the right not dealing with the diagonal bunkers would have to be enhanced somehow by either making it more of a reasonable play then #11 appears to be (don't think there ever was fairway to the right of the bunkers on LACC's #11) or the other options would have to be really intensified to make the right play a more apparent option. Looking again at Tillinghast's "reef hole" the "reef" bunker line seems to be diagonal on the right and hooked back towards the green on the left.

Ross's #12 LuLu is definitely a different variation on all this but again a very interesting one!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ralph Livingston

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2002, 04:41:57 PM »
This might be slightly off topic but what are Dallin aerials? The first post mentioned something about them. I am trying to get early aerials of our 1915-17 Ross course and could use some other sources. (He was on site in the fall of 1915 and opened for play labor day 1917, so what year is our course?)
Thanks,
Ralph
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Sayers

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Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2002, 09:52:25 AM »
Here is the c.1924 aerial of Lu Lu’s 12th showing what TEPaul has dubbed the "Ross Reverse Tillinghast Reef hole".



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2002, 10:00:56 AM »
Wow...great pic, Steve.

It should be noted by everyone that the hole plays considerably downhill, and with firm and fast conditions (as well as the longer shot required with the original tee (probably over 200), the play was to "just" carry the bunkers and let the terrain funnel the ball to the green)).  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

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Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2002, 12:26:44 PM »
Another thanks for the picture, Steve.

Interesting hole.

Can you see all of the putting surface from the tee or did the original cross bunkers hide part of it?  If you can see the green, were the original bunkers on a ridge that hid the run-up area in front of the green?

Will the green hold a sell struck shot or do you have to bounce it on?  

The green doesn't look very Redanish but maybe with the slope of the fairway it plays that way.

Interesting.

Bob

  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyChilds

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2002, 12:59:34 PM »
This is a very interesting hole and a wonderful strategic concept.

I am wondering if in light of the modern game, holes like these are the genesis of thought provoking drivable par 4's?  

This hole at LuLu and Tillie's model seem like they might have been 1/2 par holes that strong players could make a go of but weaker players needed to make their three with a pitch and a putt.  Stretch it out a bit today and make a green complex with consequences for where the ball winds up relative to the pin position and you have a formula for interesting 1/2 par short par 4's.

Does this make sense?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2002, 02:07:28 PM »
Keep in mind that this hole pictured above is basically NLE.  The hole pictured is at about a 45 degree angle from the current #12 and would cross the current #8 hole.

Here's the aerial again, showing the current #12 just NW of parking lot, where the old one in the picture above would have cut diagonally, across the NE edge of the parking lot, across the 8th hole, and near the 11th green.:

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JF1

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2002, 03:01:13 PM »
Ralph Livingston-
Aerial photos were produced by Dallin Aerial Survey Co.  Several early photos of LuLu CC including the one posted by Steve Sayers are in the Hagley Museum & Library (ww.hagley.lib.de.us) photo collections.  Many early photos of Mid-Atlantic region golf clubs can be found here.

Which course are you interestedin?  

Steve S.-
A picture is worth a thousand words!  I can now visualize what Tom Paul described. Even though I've walked this ground many a time and looked at the aerials quite often, it now makes sense.

Imagine a 3 1/2 par hole today on the course, that would surely make the handicap computers spin!!  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Lovito

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Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2002, 05:56:50 PM »
Great photo.  

It is interesting, both the look and the shot required reminds me quite a bit of #7 at Plainfield, with the difference being #7 is a par 4.  The second shot at #7 is exactly as Mike described LuLu's 12th (carry the bunkers to funnel the ball to the green) and the bunkering is very similar.  I know that Ross was famous for utilizing bunkers which were deceptively away from the green sites, but how common was the "funneling" feature as Mike described it at other Ross courses?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2002, 06:19:50 PM »
John,

That's a superb point, and I missed that connection.  Indeed, Plainfield's 7th is quite similar in concept, as well as execution to what the original hole at Lulu looked like.  

I would also agree with your contention that Ross built those foreshortened bunkers on longer shots not so much to create visual confusion and optical illusions, but more because those were the actual landing areas for full-wood or long iron shots to the green during those days, and needed to be protected as such.  Let's not forget that these were the days prior to wall-to-wall irrigation, so those early courses played extremely firm and fast.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2002, 08:34:51 PM »
I'm not certain why I assumed and described the bunker scheme on the old #12 at LuLu as much more diagonal from short right to long left the way I described it in the first post. It seems to separate the two fairway sections in more of a perpindicular direction to the line of play in the photo Steve Sayers posted here.

Some of the Dallin aerials we were looking at were taken from  probably over #18 tee and may have given a bit of a distorted perspective. In any case, from the aerial posted here it's impossible to see the cant of the ground from left to right, particularly down at the green. Today the hole plays considerably downhill from the present tee about 90-100yds to the left of where it once was.

Someone mentioned on here that the old #12 played over a section of #8 fairway.  Not really--the old #12 tee was melded onto the left side of #8 tee and played about 45 degrees away from #8 to the left. It's hard to see today because of the parking lot that has a rather large hedge surrounding it.

Again, when you look at that photo posted here it might seem a little odd that the hole has that fairway over on the left when the hole appears basically straight and downhill but the left fairway can be better understood when you see the very left to right topography down near the green.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2002, 08:58:57 PM »
Tom,

Upon further review, I see that you are correct.  I couldn't see that #8 was even in there between 11 and 12 in the old photo.  It just looked like one very wide fairway for #11.  Regardless, the angle between the current #12 and the old #12 is obviously then less than the 45 degrees I said and is more like 25 degrees.

It's interesting that the current combination #13/#16 tee was two separate but very close together tees back then.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2002, 09:10:24 PM »
Scott:

One of the reasons you had a hard time distinguishing between #8 and #11 fairway is because in that aerial and at that time the end of #11 fairway and the beginning of #8 fairway actually melded together in sort of a "hook" around, and of course there were no trees between them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2002, 10:49:44 PM »
All,
I'm just so enamored with Lu Lu. Just one of my personal quirky favorites. If anyone would ever want to get a full gist of what Donald Ross was all about, Lu Lu would be the place to learn it, but then again playing my first Ross course--Plainfield on a Saturday and the Lu Lu on a Sunday might be the best two-day education one could have on the subject.

Steve, I'm dying to see more of these Dalin Aerials. As you know, Ron was very generous to let me see them before my trip and it really spiced-up the visit when seeing how perfect of a course Lu Lu really is. (Perfect may be a strong word, but I'll use it!)

There is indeed a vacuum alive in well in the North Hills of Philadelphia where the membership GETS the big picture and wants their course to play and evolve they way the designer intended--Its name is Lu Lu Temple and the golf is PURE!

I could only wish that another course in Philadelphia could have gotten it like the members at Lu Lu have!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Tom Macwood (Guest)

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2002, 05:16:14 AM »
What was the original yardage on this hole? A very interesting hole on what looks to be a very sporty golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2002, 05:49:32 AM »
LuLu G.C. is a very interesting case, not the least of it being that it's so early (Ross's first in Pa.), and as such has what I feel are interesting "evidences" of a really well known early American architect in the beginning of a career that "evolved" in some interesting ways, but definitely did evolve in noticeable ways. His career spanned many decades, although definitely truncated by the depression and WW2. Ross like many of the other early and "Golden Age" architects had their careers sort of compressed into about a 15 year span, when in Ross's case his actual career lasted almost 50 years!

I have a gut feeling LuLu is a Ross course that Brad Klein should study as closely as possible, even following the publication of his award winnning Ross book.

I'm also aware that LuLu is considering a restoration, and at this time it may not be that conducive to the restoration effort (the membership and the committee doing it) to analyze and critique LuLu at this point on Golfclubatlas. I'll let Steve Sayers make that call and if he thinks it's not the right time, I, for one, will delete my posts off of here.

Steve Sayers has done an impressive amount of research on LuLu--really spent some time and legwork and has gone to lengths I don't think I would have gone to! Even with that extensive research he seems to feel there are many unanswered questions and some I think he feels are fairly fundamental, the primary one being that LuLu was built in two nine hole stages separated by about 3-6 years. He may even feel that the front nine (first nine built) may not even be Ross but I would very seriously doubt that it isn't, because there are just some things about that nine that are very Ross, uniquely so in fact. It even appears that the first nine is more Ross than the second nine, which clearly is Ross.

One of the clues (that I hadn't really thought that much about until now--or at least until Steve Sayers mentioned it the other day) is the real similarity of LuLu's very short par 3 #4 (originally about 100yds) across a quarry to a green above it, exactly similar to Gulph Mills's (1916-1919) little #4 across a quarry to a green above it of about 100yds.

This kind of thing can never be conclusive, of course, but the similarities of those two holes are definitely too great to overlook. Again, it can never be known but it would not be beyond the realm of solid logic to even assume that these two holes (two natual landforms) may have even been the spot on each site that Ross identified first to begin his routings on each course around--both may have been his routing starting point, in other words!  

One of the reasons I say that, is, being a real fan of the routing process, it's apparent it's just not that easy to start at what will become the #1 hole and arrive at these kinds of small and confined little landforms with logical holes and a logical routing preceding them and following them.

So consequently, an easier and more logical way is to move backwards and forwards from them (as the starting point) with the holes! Again, it's a bit like doing a jigsaw puzzle if you've identified a natural landform (or a number of them) that you want for holes. In the jigsaw puzzle analogy it's a bit like which piece do you pick up first and place on the board?

But then from Steve Sayer's perspective of trying to imagine and piece back together how LuLu's golf course orginated and evolved there are some other facts and apparent facts that have to be considered and the assumptions that have always been made should be reavaluated again too for accuracy.

For instance, it's known that the first nine was built in 1912 and that apparently it was on one side of a road that divides the first seven holes from the last eleven. In Finegan's book it says the club bought another parcel of the same farm a few years later and did another nine--and that Ross came back and did that one too. But is it logical to conclude that the original first nine was on the side of the road that the present first seven holes are now on? It may be, particularly since the old clubhouse is immediately juxtaposed to the original 1st hole (still the 1st hole) on the other side of the road (original side) than it's now on.

If the original nine was on that side of the road and Ross built that nine first and came back a few years later, it's likely he might have reconfigured his original nine into the present first seven and then completed the course (last eleven) on the other side of the road (where the clubhouse was to be and is now).

This is getting to be a long post but there's much more to go over and speculate on to check various assumptions. But that for later.

BTW, the primary reason putting the pieces back together again as to how they happened originally and evolved is always made more difficult by the fact that all of what we are talking about now as to timeframes and an evolution,  PRECEDED the first aerials!  It only goes to show just how valuable aerials are in analyzing the origins and the evolutions of any old golf course.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2002, 05:56:32 AM »
There's one other thing I should add to the above post about the fascination with LuLu today. It's 90 years old this year and apparently in all that time the only known architect to ever touch the golf course was Donald Ross! That's unusual, and that really helps in putting the pieces of its evolution back together again. Whatever is there now can be compared to a very early aerial (maybe around 1924)! And the routing and the holes are intact almost exactly, except for the alteration of the tee on #12. So anything that's there today that was not on that 1924 aerial is the work of the club itself--and in the broad scheme of things that's not a particularly complicated problem to analyze.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Sayers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2002, 10:23:54 AM »
Below is another aerial (c.1927) of Lu Lu’s 12th – you can see the beginning of the end in this photo as the parking lot is now in play.



Bcrosby,

My guess is that all of the green was visible form the tee and most of the run-up area was visible.  With the expansion of the parking it is difficult to say what the original topography was and if the bunkers were on a ridge, but my best guess would be that yes, these bunkers did sit on a small ridge just before the run-up area.

Tom M,

The original yardage on the hole was approximately 200 yards.  During the winter months (when the parking area is nearly empty) we sometimes play the hole form the original tee, albeit a completely blind shot now.

TEPaul,

I think we may be putting the cart before the horse if we start to analyze and critique our restoration efforts at this point.  As you know we are in the early stages of working with Ron Forse in the development of a master plan and it is uncertain to what extent (if any) the membership will support the Master Plan. So for now I think we should only talk about Lu Lu for what it is and what it was.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2002, 12:08:21 PM »
Were any of those grass bunkers ever filled with sand?

Also, there is a grass bunker in the first old photo that is at the beginning of the 8th fairway that is not in the last photo.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: A most interesting hole that's sort of still t
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2002, 08:30:00 PM »
SteveS:

I have no interest at all in saying anything about LuLu that would compromise a good restoration. But it seems what has been said so far about the course (by me anyway) is only about what it is and what it was! I have no interest in editorializing!

You have an interesting project ahead of you and so far I can't see that anything said so far should hinder that. I always hoped that discussing architecture on here would be benefical for any club but only such as yourself can be the judge of that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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