12th Hole bunker history Askernish

[Gordon Irvine]

The picture posted was taken on one of my first visits to the Askernish before any work or even staking out had taken place. The area that is now known as the bunker was in fact a sheep, cattle shellter and still is.

[Gordon Irvine]

Another picture to help explain the history of this blow out of sand you can see the cattle also in the picture

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thank you Gordon.

I hope that quietens the disbelievers.

[Brian Phillips]

Gordon,

Sorry to ask a stupid question but it just jumped out at me to ask it.  Was the pit dug out by the cattle or the farmer that owns the cattle so that it could be used as a shelter?

Or does no one know who dug it cattle or farmer?

[Ally Mcintosh]

That seems like a reasonable question Brian...

Admittedly it does seem unusual to have such a blowout so far from the shore in an area of such mature dune grassland....

But even if cattle or a farmer did create it, we could then argue the true definition of the term "blowout". After all, blowouts are merely holes in the surface of the dunes, created by sand being blown elsewhere after the vegetation has been removed (by rabbit burrowing or even human intervention).

[Sean_A]

That seems like a reasonable question Brian...

Admittedly it does seem unusual to have such a blowout so far from the shore in an area of such mature dune grassland....

But even if cattle or a farmer did create it, we could then argue the true definition of the term "blowout". After all, blowouts are merely holes in the surface of the dunes, created by sand being blown elsewhere after the vegetation has been removed (by rabbit burrowing or even human intervention).

Ally

I have seen blowouts at Pennard nowhere near the coast - relatively speaking.  I had a chat with a geologist about this sort of thing and he believed that blowouts must occur(even without animals) until (and if) grass takes hold and somewhat stabilizes the dunes.  He also said that he is  quite clear why in nature (IE no intervention by man) some area of sand continue to grow while others stabilizes, but he suspects that there is a tipping point at which the dune process can't be stopped unless a natural barrier interferes. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

That seems like a reasonable question Brian...

Admittedly it does seem unusual to have such a blowout so far from the shore in an area of such mature dune grassland....

But even if cattle or a farmer did create it, we could then argue the true definition of the term "blowout". After all, blowouts are merely holes in the surface of the dunes, created by sand being blown elsewhere after the vegetation has been removed (by rabbit burrowing or even human intervention).

Ally

I have seen blowouts at Pennard nowhere near the coast - relatively speaking.  I had a chat with a geologist about this sort of thing and he believed that blowouts must occur(even without animals) until (and if) grass takes hold and somewhat stabilizes the dunes.  He also said that he is  quite clear why in nature (IE no intervention by man) some area of sand continue to grow while others stabilizes, but he suspects that there is a tipping point at which the dune process can't be stopped unless a natural barrier interferes. 

Ciao

Sean,

Blowouts generally occur nearer the coast because the highly specialised species on the younger dunes (i.e. the ones closes to the coast) are the most susceptible to damage. When you are inland and have more complete vegetation and organic matter, it takes more for blowouts to form naturally. They do however occur, even far inland.

I do not agree with your geologist. It is not blowouts that must occur in the stages until grass stabilises the dunes - that is merely the natural succession of the dunes from strand line through embryo dunes through mobile dunes through semi-fixed through fixed... they of course can, and do occur through most of these stages.... Blowouts specifically occur where vegetation is removed and then the exposed sand is picked up by the wind.

[Sean_A]

That seems like a reasonable question Brian...

Admittedly it does seem unusual to have such a blowout so far from the shore in an area of such mature dune grassland....

But even if cattle or a farmer did create it, we could then argue the true definition of the term "blowout". After all, blowouts are merely holes in the surface of the dunes, created by sand being blown elsewhere after the vegetation has been removed (by rabbit burrowing or even human intervention).

Ally

I have seen blowouts at Pennard nowhere near the coast - relatively speaking.  I had a chat with a geologist about this sort of thing and he believed that blowouts must occur(even without animals) until (and if) grass takes hold and somewhat stabilizes the dunes.  He also said that he is  quite clear why in nature (IE no intervention by man) some area of sand continue to grow while others stabilizes, but he suspects that there is a tipping point at which the dune process can't be stopped unless a natural barrier interferes. 

Ciao

Sean,

Blowouts generally occur nearer the coast because the highly specialised species on the younger dunes (i.e. the ones closes to the coast) are the most susceptible to damage. When you are inland and have more complete vegetation and organic matter, it takes more for blowouts to form naturally. They do however occur, even far inland.

I do not agree with your geologist. It is not blowouts that must occur in the stages until grass stabilises the dunes - that is merely the natural succession of the dunes from strand line through embryo dunes through mobile dunes through semi-fixed through fixed... they of course can, and do occur through most of these stages.... Blowouts specifically occur where vegetation is removed and then the exposed sand is picked up by the wind.

Ally

I don't think we are saying anything different from each other.  Remember, around courses, there is nearly always the hand of man present to create a barrier from which the dunes can begin stabilizing.  The guy I was speaking of was speaking more toward where man isn't intervening - such as in Africa.  Of course, it is thought that man was the tipping point in African areas where the vegetation was stripped away and thus there doesn't seem to be much to stop the spread of dunes.  Either way, it doesn't matter much as I can tell you that I have personally seen serious blowouts at Pennard in areas that aren't the front line of dunes.  It could also very much be the case that if a course wasn't built in the burroughs, the entire area could be sand right now. 

Ciao

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,

I'm not disagreeing that you can get serious blowouts inland. I of course believe what you are telling me about Pennard.

I'm just saying that it takes more effort to create blowouts when the vegetation is more developed like it is above at Askernish 12th hole. That must have been created by some serious rabbit warren (probably most likely) or indeed as Brian says, by cattle or farmer intervention...

I don't really understand your point about intervention versus non-intervention though.

[Melvyn Morrow]

I am very surprised by the lack of participation by the GCA purists on this site. I also see that not many Architects or fellow Green Keeps seem interested.  It that because they have no idea of what has gone on at Askernish, not interested, perhaps already know all about everything there is to know or is it because it is on a small island and seems to be of no importance to their preset ways of design and maintenance.

I feel what the Islanders with the professionals & architects (i.e. Martin and Gordon) have achieved at Askernish is a lesson to us all, well those who make a living out of golf.

With no money, they have achieved a course that from every report I have read is fun and very enjoyable. Our own James Boon report was informative, most enjoyable and greatly supported by his photos. Anyone playing golf must have a wish to test themselves at Askernish, not to mention experience the feeling of golf as it might have been in the early days when it exploded worldwide. On the other hand, has the modern golfer become the classic couch potato, preferring the easy option than take the challenge?

I still would like to know why the Architects and Gordon’s fellow Green Keepers do not seem that interested in asking question about this great project. Thinking aloud, would it have anything to do with not wanting this type of course to catch on, as there would be minimal fees or money to be made? I hope its not, surly it cannot be because the Askernish story has raised the interest in golf worldwide.

I would have thought it would be interesting enough in these quiet times to check it out and be seen to check it out with photos. Follow in the footsteps of James Boon who stated he enjoyed the course, worth it for that alone IMHO.

Melvyn

 PS I expect real GCA is not as important as making lists of preferred courses and architects. What a funny old world we live in. 

[Brian Phillips]

Melvyn,

Both Ally and myself are Architects...are we not good enough for you?  

[Melvyn Morrow]

Brian

You both have been party to the debate so I was not referring to you but other members of GCA.com.

Sorry I did not make that clear.

Melvyn

[Jim_Kennedy]

Melyvn,

There is little chance that the type of conditions found at Askernish would ever be found in any quantity anyplace else on the planet. How many sites do you think offer the ease and naturalness of construction, and when one is found, say like a Sand Hills in the USA, they are put to good advantage. 

Open your eyes and look around, there are quite a few architects of this era who fully recognize the attributes of GCA that existed before glitz became fashionable.


By the way, keep up the good work Gordon.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

That bunker on the 12th looks like it was done by sheep. It doesn't look anything like a blowout.

At Gweedore GC, they had to build many of the tees on a base of stone, so that the sheep would not damage the sides of the tees. In windy and wet weather the sheep would congregate at the tees where they could get shelter, and totally destroy them.

Here's another example below of what sheep can do. This area is fenced in and is used as a sheep pen by one of the local sheep farmers. At one stage, the club had a par 3 played into a hollow (from the tee it looked a bit like the amphitheatre 1st green at Portstewart), but nothing remains of it now.

Dónal.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I am very surprised by the lack of participation by the GCA purists on this site. I also see that not many Architects or fellow Green Keeps seem interested. 

Melvyn,
This thread is about a bunker not the course.
I've read about Askernish and not this bunker.
I have only an inkling for which this thread is about.
I'm surprised there aren't more descendants of Old Tom on this thread.
Cheers

[Ally Mcintosh]

Donal,

A blowout is simply surface erosion caused by wind (as opposed to marine erosion on the seward side of the foredunes).

If the initial sand face was exposed by sheep (or cattle, or rabbits, or fire, or humans digging a hole... in other words, by any means at all) and then wind started to remove more of the sand, then it is a blow out.

If you lost a green because sheep exposed the bare sand and then the wind eroded the sand further, then that too was a blowout.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike

I am sorry my brother Mark cannot appear or contribute to the subject matter, I dearly wish he could but he died many years ago. My younger brother decided that the site was not for him when he read many of the comments on GCA.com. As for my father and my sister, they too are with Mark. Other members of the family seem uninterested in Golf and some even wallow in the opinion that they maybe Old Tom’s last surviving relative.  (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/golf/2000/british_open/news/2000/07/22/british_mould/index.html).

I will not take your comment to heart but as it was intended a swipe at me for daring to question the commitment of our design classes. I wrongly had assumed that Askernish and what they have achieved there would be of great interest. By the way I did not  mention Old Tom’s name or original involvement. Continue to feel free to lash out at anytime, if it does make you think about the subject in hand.

Melvyn

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Donal,

A blowout is simply surface erosion caused by wind (as opposed to marine erosion on the seward side of the foredunes).

If the initial sand face was exposed by sheep (or cattle, or rabbits, or fire, or humans digging a hole... in other words, by any means at all) and then wind started to remove more of the sand, then it is a blow out.

If you lost a green because sheep exposed the bare sand and then the wind eroded the sand further, then that too was a blowout.

Ally:

I agree with you. A natural blowout has clear evidence of wind erosion, such as sand piled up on one side, or even over the top of the blowout. Yes, sheep could trigger the blowout, but in the case of the bunker at the 12th at Askernish, there is no visible sign of wind erosion.

Many of the so called "blowout bunkers" that are talked about on this website don't look remotely like natural blowouts. It's just a fad which will hopefully die out soon. It an incongruous juxtaposition in my opinion, blowout bunkers and perfectly manicured fairways and greens.

Dónal.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Donal,

A blowout is simply surface erosion caused by wind (as opposed to marine erosion on the seward side of the foredunes).

If the initial sand face was exposed by sheep (or cattle, or rabbits, or fire, or humans digging a hole... in other words, by any means at all) and then wind started to remove more of the sand, then it is a blow out.

If you lost a green because sheep exposed the bare sand and then the wind eroded the sand further, then that too was a blowout.

Ally:

Yes, sheep could trigger the blowout, but in the case of the bunker at the 12th at Askernish, there is no visible sign of wind erosion.

Do you not think so? The sand had to have been eroded somehow. Once the vegetation first destabilised, is it not likely that wind effect encouraged that depression to grow?

I think blowout is quite a catch all term and can take many different looks and guises... Although I don't admit to ever directly studying the effects that wind erosion has on the pure aesthetics of a dune system...

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Do you not think so? The sand had to have been eroded somehow. Once the vegetation first destabilised, is it not likely that wind effect encouraged that depression to grow?

I think blowout is quite a catch all term and can take many different looks and guises... Although I don't admit to ever directly studying the effects that wind erosion has on the pure aesthetics of a dune system...

Who knows, but from what I can see in the picture, it doesn't look like there's much or any wind damage. It's hard to tell from a distance, but it doesn't look too different to what I've seen sheep do at our course. Yes, if you get 10-15 sheep huddled together, they can move a lot of sand and that then get spread about by the wind.

Dónal.

[Mark Chaplin]

I'd bet a rabbit warren originally collapsed and over time the animals smoothed out the hillock whilst sheltering. I see those who were criticising the marketing budget and design of the bunkers have gone quiet since Gordon put the true facts down.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Gordon,
Are the putting greens going to be maintained in a modern fashion, with smooth surfaces and speeds?

How about fairways?
 
What do you think the 'finished' product will look like at Askernish?

How will you know when to stop?

Thanks

Mark,
Smug doesn't even work for Melyvn.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'd bet a rabbit warren originally collapsed and over time the animals smoothed out the hillock whilst sheltering. I see those who were criticising the marketing budget and design of the bunkers have gone quiet since Gordon put the true facts down.

If the rabbit warren collapsed (as seems likely), it could be because wind got at the open face and undercut it, bringing about the collapse... I think Gordon indicated that it faced in to the prevailing wind. It seems highly unlikely that it hasn't been exposed to wind erosion I reckon... Donal thinks different... But really the answer is irrelevant.

What's important is that it's in all lilkelihood a naturally formed bare sand pit that was altered little in the construction of the course...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

Why are you so full of bile mixed with perhaps a little smugness. Look in a mirror before spouting your words of wisdom, as even you might learn something.

Melvyn

[Jim_Kennedy]

Melyvn,
Thank you big fella for butting in. I'm probably to blame for saying that smug doesn't work for Mark or you, but that's my mistake. Now, if you have nothing else to say I will await the answers to my questions from Gordon.