[Mac Plumart]

Great discussion.  This is the type of stuff that is a real value add concerning this site.  When I am playing, and when my friends are playing, I/we never even consider the things you guys are talking about.  25 years ago the tree didn't look like that, what other hazard could be put there, etc.  We simply try to develop a strategy to overcome the obstacles/opportunities each and every hole presents.  I like the idea of thinking about these issues after the round is over and, perhaps, before you play the course again.

As an interesting aside, I just finished Hunter's chapter(s) on hazards in "The Links".  Great timing!

Mac

[Jud_T]

I could play the rest of my life only on courses that had no trees or water and be perfectly content.....

[Ben Kodadek]

Jason

Would that have been the initial intention when the tree was originally planted?  As I said above it would be some years before it would be considered as an obstacle. Perhaps just down to good old landscape gardening by a non-golfer.

Melvyn

I think it should be noted (and Chris correct me if I'm wrong) that this course is only about 10-15 years old.  That said, the trees were pretty darn large at the time of construction.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen

When is the course in your photo due to open as those trees are still in the way?

So someone designed a course and left them in place, wow they do not think highly of their golfers who play the course   Compromised design due to lack of imagination on behalf of the designer, pity you can’t see the Green for the trees

Melvyn

PS  Bill why bother just move the Green in front of the Trees and ask the designer to return his fee.

Melyvnn,

That picture comes from the course I just did a review of ... The Lake Course at Mountain Dell.

Go to the 4th hole....Two entirely different tee shots depending on if you play from the black or blue tees or the white and reds.  That hole actually has the best and the worst tee shot...on the same hole no doubt.

Kalen

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mac

That is the reason we value our designers. We may not always agree with them but then we have not been privy to their clients brief or the constraints they had to work under. That is not to say we should accept everything either.
I love the idea that the architect throws down the challenge with his design working closely with the natural land producing a course that is enjoyable time after time due to the choices it offers. Unlike the Castle Course in St Andrews, which is a complete betrayal of the land it’s located upon (farmland to fake rolling links course).

Nevertheless, we should be vocal if we feel it plays short or does not quite match expectations. My own feeling as a man of the Links, I enjoy open spaces, trees should IMHO not play any part in the game. The designers have enough in their arsenal, not to mention the weather gauge to test the golfer. Trees are IMO just a distraction and not worthy of being either on or left on a course.

Others will have a different opinion, but expect they use all these modern aids to try to navigate around the trees and the course (once they find out which course they are meant to be playing – if you need GPS on a course, it begs the question how did they manage to get to the right golf course without one ).

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

Nope, the tree(s) ain't my bag.  The fairway doesn't look wide enough and the tree isn't attractive enough for it .  If a tree is gonna be smack in the middle of a fairway there should loads of space.  Something like 35 (maybe more if a guy can really hang himself by playing too safely) yards on the "wrong" side and 20 on the "right" side.   

ACTION: Cut tree down immediately.

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean

You do not seem totally convinced that the tree should be removed from the hole. Can you be a little more positive in what action you would recommend?

Just to make it totally clear to all of us

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

Sean

You do not seem totally convinced that the tree should be removed from the hole. Can you be a little more positive in what action you would recommend?

Just to make it totally clear to all of us

Melvyn

ACTION: Melvyn to take first trip to USA with the goal of cutting down said tree.

Ciao

[mike_beene]

Cut it down and build an old railroad shed with the wood.If they tire of that put a hotel in its place.

[David_Elvins]

Oh, BTW..The trees aren't even pretty!    

17 posts before we get to the best point.  the tree looks absolutely horrible.  Its worse than not pretty, it is an absolute eyesore. 

[Ian_L]

Nevertheless, we should be vocal if we feel it plays short or does not quite match expectations. My own feeling as a man of the Links, I enjoy open spaces, trees should IMHO not play any part in the game. The designers have enough in their arsenal, not to mention the weather gauge to test the golfer. Trees are IMO just a distraction and not worthy of being either on or left on a course.

Others will have a different opinion, but expect they use all these modern aids to try to navigate around the trees and the course (once they find out which course they are meant to be playing – if you need GPS on a course, it begs the question how did they manage to get to the right golf course without one ).

Melvyn

Melvyn,

While I enjoy reading your opinions and in fact often agree with them, I think it's very unfair to lump all people you don't agree with into one group.  Not everyone who doesn't mind a tree in the occasional fairway uses GPS, carts, wind reading devices, etc.  And I'm sure you know that.

Also, what exactly do you think the problem is with ever using a tree in a fairway (I am not saying you are wrong, these are of course opinions after all)? It seems the only concrete point against them you have made so far is the fact that they change over time.  I believe trees can be appropriately used to give an advantage to the player who can shape his shots and think out the hole beforehand, which I believe you consider integral parts of the game?  While I certainly don't like the hole mentioned, I wouldn't go as far to say any tree on the course is an abomination.  I am guessing that if there was a tree on a fairway on The Old Course you would have a different opinion.

[Sean_A]

Nevertheless, we should be vocal if we feel it plays short or does not quite match expectations. My own feeling as a man of the Links, I enjoy open spaces, trees should IMHO not play any part in the game. The designers have enough in their arsenal, not to mention the weather gauge to test the golfer. Trees are IMO just a distraction and not worthy of being either on or left on a course.

Others will have a different opinion, but expect they use all these modern aids to try to navigate around the trees and the course (once they find out which course they are meant to be playing – if you need GPS on a course, it begs the question how did they manage to get to the right golf course without one ).

Melvyn

Melvyn,

While I enjoy reading your opinions and in fact often agree with them, I think it's very unfair to lump all people you don't agree with into one group.  Not everyone who doesn't mind a tree in the occasional fairway uses GPS, carts, wind reading devices, etc.  And I'm sure you know that.

Also, what exactly do you think the problem is with ever using a tree in a fairway (I am not saying you are wrong, these are of course opinions after all)? It seems the only concrete point against them you have made so far is the fact that they change over time.  I believe trees can be appropriately used to give an advantage to the player who can shape his shots and think out the hole beforehand, which I believe you consider integral parts of the game?  While I certainly don't like the hole mentioned, I wouldn't go as far to say any tree on the course is an abomination.  I am guessing that if there was a tree on a fairway on The Old Course you would have a different opinion.

Ian

Regardless of the tree, which I don't believe adds anything, the design of the hole is bass ackwards.  I don't know if the water has to be there for some reason, but even if it does, it should be used intelligently.  What is the point of designing this hole where the green opens up to the safe(er) side of the fairway?  Its this sort of design which completely befuddles me and makes me glad I don't have to endure much of it. 

On second thought; ACTION: redesign entire hole.

Ciao

Ciao

[Doug Spets]

Chris......

How do you feel about #16 at Harbour Town?

[Chris Cupit]

Never played it and honestly the only holes I have a slight memory of via TV are the par 3 17 and the lighthouse 18th.  I have been to Hilton Head and have had the chance to play a few times but it did not seem to be a course I would enjoy.

Again, I am not opposed to all holes that have a tree as part of the strategy of the hole.  I think the par 5 sixth hole at the Honors Course uses a tree/trees very well to force a player depending on the hole location to play his ball to a specific side of the fairway.  I like it because it takes what is often a "throwaway shot"--a layup on a par 5 and makes you think and execute.

I also incorporated a tree at my course where a careless or sloppy tee shot would put a player in a bad spot with tree trouble.

I have heard that HT is a shot maker's course that is short but demands precision off the tee.  All that is good but it's not a course that appeals to me.  A few holes where you need to lay up or be really careful about not just hitting the fairway but perhaps having tree trouble all day despite hitting the fairway doesn't appeal to me.   By the same token courses like Sahalee or even  Olympic Club seem claustraphobic to me and not some place I'd enjoy. 

Having mentioned those three courses let me point out that I am NOT saying they are "stupid" courses and that there is even one hole on any of them that remotely compares to my example I gave here of what I think are bad holes.  It is fair to say I dislike trees as a primary feature on golf courses and believe that bunkers, grass, terrain and creeks are all that are needed (I'm not a big lake fan either ).  Personal preference I know and believe it or not I like trees--just not on golf courses!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ian

First of all my comment re GPS was mean to be amusing clearly you did not see the humour.

As for Trees on fairways, I have already stated that they are the Jokers in the pack. Their appearance in the first place, combined with their growth and future shape, I would guess have not been calculated by the designer thus may affect the other hazards on that hole. As the tree develops, the choices may vary thus deviating from the architects original intentions for that hole, rendering it’s a potential pain in the bum hole (which if funds are available may well be modified to correct the problem). Although not in course design, I have spent some years designing projects and would never include a potential joker in my designs. I do not believe any quality designer would leave his/her design open to potential criticism in this way.

I do not know how you view things, but if I feel it is wrong its does not matter where in the world it is, it’s still wrong. Be it on TOC or in the middle of America, it makes no difference. I do not criticise people because of their Nationality, Race or Religion. To say, “I am guessing that if there was a tree on a fairway on The Old Course you would have a different opinion.”  Just goes to show the type of individual you are and only reflect upon you.

Trees generate that unknown factor, their shape, prone to deformity be it natural, man or storm inflicted, worst of all the volume of water they consume from the area around their base. Then we have the potential of conflicting with design intent, come on Ian I must have explained enough reason why I am not keen re trees on or near the fairway. They should be out passed the rough, if you are stuck with them.

Just in case I am not clear, I confirm that my answer is NO I would not want or like that tree on TOC.

I am sorry you feel that you need to call me twofaced, hopefully your vision has re-focused and you now see clearly.

Melvyn 

[Mac Plumart]

Alright guys, you got me interested in your opinion on something.

My home course is St. Ives in the 'burbs of Atlanta, GA.  Some of you have said you've played it and/or know of it.  It is a Fazio course and will never be anywhere near a Top 100 course, but I enjoy playing it a lot.  However, that information is almost useless concerning my post.  Here is my point/question...

Hole #6 is a dogleg right par 4.  From the tee box, the hole is downhill right up until the dogleg...then the hole flattens and then transitions into an uphill shot towards an elevated green.  As the hole doglegs, there is a big bushy tree on the right hand side corner of the fairway/rough transition.  If you don't get by the tree, you don't have a shot at the green unless you pull out a very accurate fade of about 170 yards.  To get by the tree you've got to hit 265 yard tee shot.  Not easy.  BUT, you can elect to play along the left hand side of the fairway and hit a 220 yards tee shot and have a look at the green from about 190 yards.  BUT there is a fairway bunker on the left hand side of the fairway about 230 yards up the fairway.  So you can't hit that left sided shot more then 230.

Is that hole poorly designed?  Should that tree go?  Should the bunker be removed?  Or is it simply a challenging hole that requires either a booming drive or a precise drive?  I've parred the hole before, but I've also doubled bogeyed it many times as well.  In the past, I've simply concluded my game needs to get better to play the hole better.

FYI...I should have pictures of that hole/tree later today.  I'll need help learning how to post picutres in an post.

Later!

[Jud_T]

sounds like it would be a better strategic hole if the tree were felled but the green was defended on the right or tilted left-i.e. the easier approach would be to challenge the bunker off the tee...what is the green comples like?

[Mac Plumart]

Jud...

Green is elevated/uphill at least 20 feet with bunker off the front right hand side of it.  Once on the green, it slopes back to front, left to right quite a bit.  If you miss the green long you will hit the bank and stick as the rough is usually grown up a bit...the bank behind the green is about 10 to 15 feet high and also goes around to the left hand side of the green.

I will do my best to post photos of the hole this afternoon/early evening EST.

Mac

[Chris Cupit]

Alright guys, you got me interested in your opinion on something.

My home course is St. Ives in the 'burbs of Atlanta, GA.  Some of you have said you've played it and/or know of it.  It is a Fazio course and will never be anywhere near a Top 100 course, but I enjoy playing it a lot.  However, that information is almost useless concerning my post.  Here is my point/question...

Hole #6 is a dogleg right par 4.  From the tee box, the hole is downhill right up until the dogleg...then the hole flattens and then transitions into an uphill shot towards an elevated green.  As the hole doglegs, there is a big bushy tree on the right hand side corner of the fairway/rough transition.  If you don't get by the tree, you don't have a shot at the green unless you pull out a very accurate fade of about 170 yards.  To get by the tree you've got to hit 265 yard tee shot.  Not easy.  BUT, you can elect to play along the left hand side of the fairway and hit a 220 yards tee shot and have a look at the green from about 190 yards.  BUT there is a fairway bunker on the left hand side of the fairway about 230 yards up the fairway.  So you can't hit that left sided shot more then 230.

Is that hole poorly designed?  Should that tree go?  Should the bunker be removed?  Or is it simply a challenging hole that requires either a booming drive or a precise drive?  I've parred the hole before, but I've also doubled bogeyed it many times as well.  In the past, I've simply concluded my game needs to get better to play the hole better.

FYI...I should have pictures of that hole/tree later today.  I'll need help learning how to post picutres in an post.

Later!

Mac,

As surprising as this may sound I have played the hole a few times and I think the tree is OK.  It has been five years or so but I can't imagine the tree growing too much since then.  The hole does play downhill quite a bit and assuming "better" players are the ones who must hit it 265 to get past the tree I think that is not all that unreasonable.  Also, as you pointed out, a more conservative play is out to the left which leaves a longer approach but that to me is the essence of strategy--do I challenge the tree and right side and give myself a shorter,easier approach or do I try and guarantee myself a clear approach but with a longer club.

The green is quite smallish and severe if I remember.  A very pronounced tier and anything short rolls back down the hill in front?

I think the tee shot on the next hole is more "unfair" if anything.  A reachable par 5 that requires a significant forced carry over a lake.  Shorter hitters can struggle to just clear the hazard and longer hitters who have cleared the lake can almost always reach the green.  I kinda liked it but it seemed a little unfair.  I officiated an event that had either college kids or scratch golfers and some of the shorter guys really struggled--the ball drop got worn out!

I heard the new tees are great  Good weather this week means we can finally play some in Atl.

[Chris Cupit]

Mike,

here are some "smart" trees :

A big old oak--nice shade



Pecan trees--Yes it is pronounced Peee-cans where i live.  Great pecan producers although they hurt like hell when they hit you on the head!



And one I actually planted--a Ginko.  At least I think I planted it, I can't remember



Evey one of them guaranteed to be miles from the middle of any fairway

[Mac Plumart]

Chris...

Good information.  That is how I view 7 as well, but I just wanted some more feedback.  I will post those pictures just so everyone else can see and comment.

As for hole 8, you are correct.  For big hitters, it is an eagle chance...but short hitters 50/50 they make it over the water.  Also, wild big hitters have a 75% chance of going ob.  Weird hole...eagle or double depending on your drive.

[Ian_L]

Ian

First of all my comment re GPS was mean to be amusing clearly you did not see the humour.

Sorry, it's hard to tell on a forum.

As for Trees on fairways, I have already stated that they are the Jokers in the pack. Their appearance in the first place, combined with their growth and future shape, I would guess have not been calculated by the designer thus may affect the other hazards on that hole. As the tree develops, the choices may vary thus deviating from the architects original intentions for that hole, rendering it’s a potential pain in the bum hole (which if funds are available may well be modified to correct the problem). Although not in course design, I have spent some years designing projects and would never include a potential joker in my designs. I do not believe any quality designer would leave his/her design open to potential criticism in this way.

Don't you think it's possible for a good architect to account for these things?  I certainly do. Sure, if you plant the tree it will take decades and be very unpredictable.  But, if you have a mature, stable tree, it can last for decades.  An even better architect would find a way to make the hole interesting even if the tree fell or had to be cut down.  While I would never want it used as an "obstacle" more than twice on a course at the very most, I don't see the heresy in its rare use, if used appropriately.

I do not know how you view things, but if I feel it is wrong its does not matter where in the world it is, it’s still wrong. Be it on TOC or in the middle of America, it makes no difference. I do not criticise people because of their Nationality, Race or Religion. To say, “I am guessing that if there was a tree on a fairway on The Old Course you would have a different opinion.”  Just goes to show the type of individual you are and only reflect upon you.

Melvyn, all I am saying is that you are very traditionalist and it seems to me you believe if it wasn't on the old Scottish courses, it doesn't belong in golf.  That is your opinion and it is absolutely fine.  However, for many of us don't have the good fortune of being able to play pure links golf all the time,  so we have adapted other methods to make courses interesting, one of which is trees.  All my comment was supposed to mean is that you don't seem to accept anything that is not traditional as real golf.  That is fine, but I suppose it makes arguing this kind of thing pointless.

Trees generate that unknown factor, their shape, prone to deformity be it natural, man or storm inflicted, worst of all the volume of water they consume from the area around their base. Then we have the potential of conflicting with design intent, come on Ian I must have explained enough reason why I am not keen re trees on or near the fairway. They should be out passed the rough, if you are stuck with them.

Just in case I am not clear, I confirm that my answer is NO I would not want or like that tree on TOC.

I am sorry you feel that you need to call me twofaced, hopefully your vision has re-focused and you now see clearly.

Melvyn 

Again, I am just putting my opinion out there.  Maybe some of the less friendly people on this site have put you on your toes.    I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm trying to have a discussion here.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ian

I see no problems in a good discussion

Melvyn

PS Still do not like tree on the fairway - a Cardinal Sin on the scale of carts but not as serious as cart tracks ( ) those being the work of the Devil's little helpers (and they know who they are )

[Ian_L]

Melvyn, you should really post your scale of golf sins.

Thanks for the smilies. 

[Mac Plumart]

I would like to see that list of golf sins as well.  I think it would be cool to know.

Today I played nine holes with a client...rode in a cart and used my laser range finder...if I knew more of the golf sins I probably could list some more!

Hybrids?  Mallet putters?  vaseline on the face of my driver (kidding on that one!!)

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