[mike_malone]

 With Portsalon and Narin'Portnoo

[mike_malone]

 Mac,

    Before you go, which guys did I get to rethink their positions? I must have missed something. I know Sweeney and McBride are thick headed Irishmen (It takes one to know one )

[Bill_McBride]

 Bill,

     I agree with that. I posted earlier about how well it photographs, the vision of its founder, the travails of its creation, the beauty of the backgrounds, the extremely well crafted construction, the ambiance. But, for me it is all about the architecture.

I guess one place where we are differing is that I think your list here is all part and parcel of the golf architecture, not separable.  How the architect(s) get you around the property. incorporate the best features, create challenges, overcome challenges, all part of the work of the architect.

We are going to have to agree to disagree here.   I played Friars Head once, 3 or 4 years ago, and remember each hole very clearly.  That's my index for greatness, and FH definitely is in my personal top 50 on that basis.  I was never less than fully engaged all day, even while Tiger Bernhardt just wanted to talk about LSU football.

[Mac Plumart]

Mike...

Every one had to re-think their position to answer your continued protests, questions, and challenges.  Whether they changed their opinion or not, I can't know for sure.  But your persistence and consistency and valid points, no doubt, challenged people.

Frankly, I can't wait to play the course and tell you why you all are wrong!!!

Seriously though, I am enjoying it...keep it up!

[Dean Stokes]

I'm thinking Mike is on to something here.  

I've never played Friar's Head and I've only played 4 Top 100 courses, so bear this in mind as I comment but...

Wasn't Yale absolutely ground-breaking at the time?  Perhaps because of the land it was on, perhaps because of all the $$$ pumped into it, but wasn't it truly groundbreaking?

As were many of these courses that he's been talking about and as are many of the courses on these Top 100 lists.

I've read these posts over and over and I conclude that Friar's Head is a very good course.  But no one seems to have clearly stated a response to his initial question, which was essentially what architectural significance does Friar's Head bring forth in its design?  It sounds like nothing that other C&C courses haven't already brought forth.

Some, including, Tom Doak say that architects shouldn't be judged solely by how many revolutionary breakthroughs each and every course they design has.  Fair enough, but I think that is what Mike is asking relative to Friar's Head.

Is it a Top 100 course, most likely.  Is it a top 50 course, maybe.  But is it a revolutionary breakthrough...it sounds like no.  And if Mike plays NGLA, TOC, Ballybunion, etc regularly, then why should he go back to Friar's Head?

"Is it a revolutionary breakthrough?"

What the heck is that in golf architecture terms? All breakthroughs in GCA have been made in the past hundreds of years.

Mac, you and MM are asking what is revolutionary about FH but neither of you can give us one example of something that would be new in GCA. Can you not accept that it is a fine golf course that people want to be a member at it and leave it at there. Why does it have to bring something new to the world to be a great golf course?

PS. if you got to play NGLA, TOC and Ballybunion regularly, why would you need to play ANYWHERE else.

[mike_malone]

 Dean,

   I'm not asking for a revolutionary breakthrough. I tried to clarify what I mean by "distinctiveness" by giving examples. Not all courses with distinctiveness are great but, for me, all great courses have that feeling of specialness and individuality. FH is certainly a great place to play golf as a member or as a guest. I'm just trying to have this website discuss gca every once in awhile.

[Dean Stokes]

Dean,

   I'm not asking for a revolutionary breakthrough. I tried to clarify what I mean by "distinctiveness" by giving examples. Not all courses with distinctiveness are great but, for me, all great courses have that feeling of specialness and individuality. FH is certainly a great place to play golf as a member or as a guest. I'm just trying to have this website discuss gca every once in awhile.

and my point is that at some point nothing is distinctive Mike. It doesn't matter where in the world someone builds a redan or an island green or a two tiered green or a forced carry to the fairway, it has already been done. Maybe we are just not on the same wavelength here but I cannot think of another course that slides in and out of sand dunes to what was a potatoe field to cliff edges and does it all with ease on the eye and good, solid fundemental architecture.

Does that mean it has to be ranked to be enjoyed? Does that mean it is as good as or better than the next course? Who knows. Is it special and does it have individuality? I think so. You don't.

[Mac Plumart]

I am just about to run out to a meeting, so I will have to be brief.  But Dean, I'm not really saying anything about Friar's Head.  I've never played it...I am just reading what is written and asking questions.  It sounds like the transitions from two pieces of property is amazing and a number of the holes are world class.  Sounds like a great course. 

But Mike's original question asked about its architectural distinctiveness.  I added my own words of something like revolutionary breakthrough...not Mike's words, mine, and perhaps that was the wrong choice of words.  Have all of those breakthroughs been made?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  NGLA was a breakthrough, Shadow Creek was revolutionary, I think it can be argued that Mac/Raynor's template was a breakthrough, Sand Hills revolutionary...I think so.

So, I am not bagging on Friars Head at all.  It sounds and looks amazing.  It has to be an honor and privaledge to play...at least in my mind.  But perhaps not revolutionary (my words, not Mike's).  I think another course will come along that will be revolutionary.

Perhaps it will be the 6,500 yard course Tom Doak mentioned he wants to design.  Could it be something "green"?  Perhaps it will be a course or grass requiring less water.  I don't know, but something will happen.

That is all...In my opinion C&C are amazing and all of their courses that I have seen look adn play amazingly well.  I hope no one got mad over this thread...I wa simply enjoying the discussion and education.

[John Kirk]

Does anybody else here think the 4th hole is really great?  It's unusually simple.  Flat, 200 yards, sand all the way down the left.  You can bail out right, but the recovery is trickier from over there.

Every time I seem to play the hole the same way.  Long iron, but one less than I need.  I hit it solid, and I'm pleased as it heads towards the green, landing in the front third.  I put my head down, and when I look back up, the ball is rolling slowly back towards the front fringe.  I then try to get up and down from 65 feet away.

Hardly unique, unless you consider the willingness to build a subtle, difficult hole at a first class venue.

[Bill_McBride]

Does anybody else here think the 4th hole is really great?  It's unusually simple.  Flat, 200 yards, sand all the way down the left.  You can bail out right, but the recovery is trickier from over there.

Every time I seem to play the hole the same way.  Long iron, but one less than I need.  I hit it solid, and I'm pleased as it heads towards the green, landing in the front third.  I put my head down, and when I look back up, the ball is rolling slowly back towards the front fringe.  I then try to get up and down from 65 feet away.

Hardly unique, unless you consider the willingness to build a subtle, difficult hole at a first class venue.

As I recall it, #12 was also rather flat and simple and of similar length.   That's the downside of the potato field.   The upside is the really good holes C&C built down there, including the lower parts of the transitional par 5's. 

John, I think the difficult with #4 is that it's deceptively slightly uphill, like #6.  Looks flat, plays a little uphill. 

[mike_malone]

 Brian,

   In 2009 the Merion threads were hot and heavy. I started this topic to elicit specific discussion on ARCHITECTURE about an admired golf course instead of petty name calling. That effort was a success. Friar's Head has faded from my memory and I doubt I'll be invited back.

[Jud_T]

I think TomD said at some point it was the only new course he'd seen in a while that was clearly a 9 so there must be more going on there than just the rent.  Frankly that would put it ahead of several of the courses on Mac's list in some corners...

[Steve Lapper]

Brian,

   In 2009 the Merion threads were hot and heavy. I started this topic to elicit specific discussion on ARCHITECTURE about an admired golf course instead of petty name calling. That effort was a success. Friar's Head has faded from my memory and I doubt I'll be invited back.

Mayday,


Kinda like Rolling Green has faded from my mind as well......don't think I'll be invited back there either! 

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