[Jim Thornton]

Mike-

You played with Donald Trump today?  What was he like?

Jim

[Mike Sweeney]

Great courses that I have played like NGLA, TOC, Ballybunion, Royal County Down left me with a feeling that ONLY that course could give. Forgive me for not feeling that way about FH, but I would need to lie to express a different opinion.

Mayday - Thanks for confirming that FH is not a Top 10 course in the world that has had close to 100 years to mature.

BTW I played with someone today who had the same feeling as I did. And he makes up his own mind.

Hopefully this is not some Superman Parallel Universe friend that is Evil Mayday!

[Jim Thornton]

In the voice of the great Howard Cossel...

"Down goes Malone!  Down goes Malone!"

[Mac Plumart]

Alright, I am getting into this post...

Mike has said that FH isn't as good as some amazing golf courses.  I think everyone agrees with that, so I don't really see the over-riding point of discussing is FH better than NGLA, Pine Valley, etc.  But I do think there is some merit in discussing the course and its ranking.

With that in mind, I compiled that GW Top 100.  I took the scores for courses listed on both their modern and classic list to come up with their Top 100 lists.  Why?  In my opinion, Golfweek is the best Top 100 list and I did some diligence to justify that opinion.  I won't bore you all with that, but it is on my site if you want to check it out.

Anyway, the point is this...below are GW's Top 30ish courses in the US.  FH is 22nd.  Is that appropriate?  If not, where should it be.  What courses should it be above, if you think 22 is too low?  What courses should it be below if you think 22 is too high?

Cypress Point
Pine Valley
Sand Hills
Shinnecock Hills
Pacific Dunes
Merion East
Oakmont
National Golf Links
Pebble Beach
Crystal Downs
Augusta National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
Praire Dunes
Fishers Island
San Francisco
Chicago Golf Club
Pinehurst #2
Seminole
Winged Foot (West)
Pete Dye Golf Club
Bandon Dunes
Friar's Head
Sebonack
Ballyneal
Oakland Hills (South)
The Golf Club
Shadow Creek
Muirfield Village
Bethpage Black
Garden City
Kinloch


I am curious because I think everyone agrees that Mike's argument that it isn't better than NGLA is a non-issue...but what the real issue is is how over-rated or under-rated is it?

[mike_malone]

 I'm not into rankings, but I do think the group of great courses evoke something special. What is special about FH? I don't know but I can be convinced. In fact, that is exactly why I started this thread. While I trust my gut I wanted to see how it could be wrong in this case.

[Mac Plumart]

Sweet, let's roll with it.

I'm not overly concerned with rankings either, but I've got to believe that the top tier/ranked course evoke that something special  feeling in people.  Since I haven't played it or many (if any) of these courses yet, I can't add any comments.

But others can and I would be open to hear them.

How over and under rated is FH, but more importantly, WHY?

[mike_malone]

 I see several courses below it that I have heard much about, particularly how distinctive they are. I think we need your list up to 75.

[Bill_McBride]

Dean,

    I tried to answer your question but before I used your name. I don't think someone else should design the course.


      I'm not asking for them to do something different for difference's sake. I gave an example of one hole that seemed to show creativity beyond what I expect to see from them. I'm saying that the holes appear and play much like other C+C holes I have seen and played in such a way that I think is not very imaginative.


    Ryan comes close to what I think gets people about the place, visually stunning and I might add well crafted. But, my focus is on the layout, how it is inspirational to play, and what makes it different than other great courses.

    Great courses that I have played like NGLA, TOC, Ballybunion, Royal County Down left me with a feeling that ONLY that course could give. Forgive me for not feeling that way about FH, but I would need to lie to express a different opinion.

   BTW I played with someone today who had the same feeling as I did. And he makes up his own mind.
       

   

I have played several other C&C courses and have never seen holes on other courses quite like #7, #9, #10, #14, #15!!, #16 or #18.  To me these have more terrain than usually found on C&C courses and well used it is.  There are several elevated greens there and that is not a common theme of theirs in my experience.   

[I have not played Saguaro, Sugar Loaf or Kapalua]

[Mac Plumart]

Here is the Top 100...

Cypress Point
Pine Valley
Sand Hills
Shinnecock Hills
Pacific Dunes
Merion East
Oakmont
National Golf Links
Pebble Beach
Crystal Downs
Augusta National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
Praire Dunes
Fishers Island
San Francisco
Chicago Golf Club
Pinehurst #2
Seminole
Winged Foot (West)
Pete Dye Golf Club
Bandon Dunes
Friar's Head
Sebonack
Ballyneal
Oakland Hills (South)
The Golf Club
Shadow Creek
Muirfield Village
Bethpage Black
Garden City
Kinloch
Los Angeles North
Old Sandwich
Olympic (Lake)
The Honors Course
Camargo
The Country Club (Composite)
Riviera
Southern Hills
Spyglass Hill
TPC Sawgrass
Wannamoisett
Wade Hampton
Kiawah Ocean
Shoreacres
Chambers Bay
Plainfield
Pasatiempo
Somerset Hills
Kingsley Club
Myopia Hunt
Maidstone
Peachtree
Calusa  Pines
Winged Foot (East)
Oak Hill (East)
Inverness
Bandon Trails
Colorado Golf Club
Quaker Ridge
Yeamans Hall
Balustrol (Lower)
Dunes Club
Dallas National
Boston Golf Club
Valley Club of Monticetto
Olymipa Fields (North)
Wild Horse
Baltimore (east)
Harbour Town
Monterrey (Shore)
Desert Forest
Salem CC
Castle Pines
Arcadia Bluffs
World Woods (Pine Barrens)
Galloway National
Bayonne
Yale
Blackwolf Run (River)
Newport
Piping Rock
Wolf Run
Mayacama
Cuscowilla
Double Eagle
Homestead (Cascades)
Milwaukee
Colonial
Scioto
East Lake
Interlachen
Holston Hills
Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry)
Sutton Bay
Paa-Ko Ridge
White Bear Yacht Club
Quail Hollow
Karsten Creek
Medinah #3

[Pete Lavallee]

Mac,

Sorry, but you can't merge the Golf Week Top 100 lists, as the ranking score is relative to that list only.

[Mac Plumart]

Pete...I am aware of that and we can use another list if someone wants, but I just wanted to get a list to gauge Friar's Head over/under rating.

I don't want this great discussion to be derailed over the details of a list.  If posting Golf Mag's list or Golf Digest is better, I will do that as I am interested in hearing from people who know about Friars Head, not the dos and donts of a list.

However, thanks for pointing that out.

Mac

[Mike Sweeney]

Here is the Top 100...
 

Friars Head




Yale

Ok, I am going to go real slow so Mayday can keep up.  

Yale and Friars Head are both roughly 75 miles from me. Both courses were built by architects that feature template holes. One course cost a huge amount to build. One course has a large maintenance budget.

One course is built on sand and one course is built on rock and clay from the Glacier Age:



One course is cut out from dense forest:



One course is cut from the dunes (sand!) of Long Island:



One course receives the full effect of the wind:



and one course is protected by wind from dense trees:



Now when we start having architectural aficionados judge a course by HOW MUCH ARCHITECTURE they impose on a natural setting of wind and sand based playing conditions, well Ran should close up shop and move on.

Mayday,

Of course Yale is an architecturally more significant course that Friars Head. It had to be. Few love Yale more than me, but we DO NOT need architects to make statements on near perfect golf settings.

[Bill_McBride]

Great stuff, Mr. Sweeney!

But look at that wondrous aerial - Friars Head is also cut out of a forest!  At least the up on top bits appear to have been.

I really dislike comparative ratings, so I will just say about Friars Head that it has to be among the top fifty or so courses in the country and yes, I would make a special trip to play it.  The one time I did, I played Yale, the Creek Club, and Friars Head.  None of those courses is a slouch at all and I would have a difficult time rating one above the others.

Luckily I don't have to.

Mike, just curious, what do you think are Coore & Crenshaw template holes?

When we talk about Macdonald / Raynor template holes, they are almost all found on every one of their courses.  There are some themes on C&C courses, but I can't think of a single template hole unless it's the short par 4 with central bunkering.  That would be #5 Cuscowilla, #5 Talking Stick North, #5 Friars Head........now there's a recurring theme!

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike, just curious, what do you think are Coore & Crenshaw holes?

When we talk about Macdonald / Raynor template holes, they are almost all found on every one of their courses.  There are some themes on C&C courses, but I can't think of a single template hole unless it's the short par 4 with central bunkering.  That would be #5 Cuscowilla, #5 Talking Stick North, #5 Friars Head........now there's a recurring theme!

Bill,

I assume you mean Mike Sweeney unless you are looking for a few laughs before the World Series from Mayday!!

I agree with your theme concept of C&C and would add in their "Short" Par 3 at C&C courses as a second template of C&C. Yes I am a fan of both C&C and MacRaynor.

[Kevin Pallier]

I think everybody agrees that 5, 10, 14 and especially 15 are fantastic golf holes.

Does Mayday ?

[mike_malone]

 I'm having trouble keeping my finger in the dyke to hold back all of this C+C gushiness.

    Mike Sweeney,

      First of all, thanks for going slow and showing a Yale / FH comparison. I would just say that after one play at Yale the feeling is THAT is a special golf course. It may be compared to other courses but the total effect is one of distinctiveness. I don't get that at FH. I'm still stuck in the place that the course missed a chance to stand out. I believe this is likely because of decisions made by the designers.

   Kevin,

    There are great holes and then there are world class holes. For most of the most highly regarded courses there is arguably at least one world class hole. Even my favorite whipping boy,Merion, has at least 2/3 world class holes---5-16 or18. These holes provide the centerpiece of people's experience of the distinctiveness of these courses. I liked 10 at FH but it is far from world class. This leaves me with an assessment that the course can't be in that upper echelon. Yale , which hovers just below 100 usually, has at least one world class hole.

   Possibly, I'm hung up on my "flow" bias as well. I guess I am addicted to the movement from good to great and back again that so many classic guys did. FH seems consistent .

   Mike Sweeney,

    I don't know what to do with your statement that Yale is a more architecturally significant course than FH. I think that is what I have been saying.

    Let's just say the goal at FH was to do a finely crafted golf course with architecture that can't be impeached.

[Bill_McBride]

Mike, just curious, what do you think are Coore & Crenshaw holes?

When we talk about Macdonald / Raynor template holes, they are almost all found on every one of their courses.  There are some themes on C&C courses, but I can't think of a single template hole unless it's the short par 4 with central bunkering.  That would be #5 Cuscowilla, #5 Talking Stick North, #5 Friars Head........now there's a recurring theme!

Bill,

I assume you mean Mike Sweeney unless you are looking for a few laughs before the World Series from Mayday!!

I agree with your theme concept of C&C and would add in their "Short" Par 3 at C&C courses as a second template of C&C. Yes I am a fan of both C&C and MacRaynor.

Yes you, big fellow!  Please give me several examples of the C&C template short par 3.  Uphill?  Downhill?  Bunkered all across the front?

[Mac Plumart]

I'm thinking Mike is on to something here.  

I've never played Friar's Head and I've only played 4 Top 100 courses, so bear this in mind as I comment but...

Wasn't Yale absolutely ground-breaking at the time?  Perhaps because of the land it was on, perhaps because of all the $$$ pumped into it, but wasn't it truly groundbreaking?

As were many of these courses that he's been talking about and as are many of the courses on these Top 100 lists.

I've read these posts over and over and I conclude that Friar's Head is a very good course.  But no one seems to have clearly stated a response to his initial question, which was essentially what architectural significance does Friar's Head bring forth in its design?  It sounds like nothing that other C&C courses haven't already brought forth.

Some, including, Tom Doak say that architects shouldn't be judged solely by how many revolutionary breakthroughs each and every course they design has.  Fair enough, but I think that is what Mike is asking relative to Friar's Head.

Is it a Top 100 course, most likely.  Is it a top 50 course, maybe.  But is it a revolutionary breakthrough...it sounds like no.  And if Mike plays NGLA, TOC, Ballybunion, etc regularly, then why should he go back to Friar's Head?

[Mike Sweeney]

 And if Mike plays NGLA, TOC, Ballybunion, etc regularly, then why should he go back to Friar's Head?

Mac,

You seem like a nice guy, but Philly guys don't cross the Delaware River much let alone cross the Atlantic. If Mayday has the private jet, time and connections to play NGLA, TOC and Ballybunion "regularly" then Friar's Head should get thrown right under the bus. 

Mike Sweeney
Red Sox fan and Philly kid living in NYC, cheering for Pedro!

[mike_malone]

 Mac.

    I don't need "groundbreaking" but I want a sense of specialness in the architecture. Let me take another tack. There are many courses I hear discussed on this site that I say to myself  "I want to go there someday to play and see the architecture". Several that I had on that list which I actually visited were NGLA, Rye, N.Berwick,  Pennard, Plainfield, Yale, and Musselburgh. I had no disappointments . I went there solely from the type of comments made here.

  Still on my list of courses that I learned about exclusively from this site are Crystal Downs, Kinloch, Prairie Dunes , Sand Hills  to name a few.  (Naming more could be seen as seeking access ).
.
 My impression from what I have read here  is that there is a distinctiveness to these courses.


    Interestingly, FH was not a course I had on my list. I thought the photos were outstanding, but I didn't pick up from comments made here a sense that I must go there.

  A very kind gentleman invited me.

[Bill_McBride]

Mac.

    I don't need "groundbreaking" but I want a sense of specialness in the architecture. Let me take another tack. There are many courses I hear discussed on this site that I say to myself  "I want to go there someday to play and see the architecture". Several that I had on that list which I actually visited were NGLA, Rye, N.Berwick,  Pennard, Plainfield, Yale, and Musselburgh. I had no disappointments . I went there solely from the type of comments made here.

  Still on my list of courses that I learned about exclusively from this site are Crystal Downs, Kinloch, Prairie Dunes , Sand Hills  to name a few.  (Naming more could be seen as seeking access ).
.
 My impression from what I have read here  is that there is a distinctiveness to these courses.


    Interestingly, FH was not a course I had on my list. I thought the photos were outstanding, but I didn't pick up from comments made here a sense that I must go there.

  A very kind gentleman invited me.

One thing that affects ratings and perception:  the very private nature of Friars Head.  It is a pretty tough ticket.

[mike_malone]

 Mike Sweeney,

    I don't need to play those three courses regularly. I can play them in my mind because of their memorability. FH is fading from my mind like a winter tan.

[mike_malone]

  Bill,

     I agree with that. I posted earlier about how well it photographs, the vision of its founder, the travails of its creation, the beauty of the backgrounds, the extremely well crafted construction, the ambiance. But, for me it is all about the architecture.

[Mac Plumart]

Guys...

I'll drop out of this discussion as I doubt I can add anything more to it.  But I will re-iterate that it has been enjoyable and I've learned quite a bit.

I think it is clear that Friar's Head is a very good course, but perhaps not a unanimous gem.  Simply a very good course.

I also think this has been a very good architectural discussion began by someone challenging the status quo and making people re-think there positions on the issue.

If y'all keep going, I will be reading and learning.

Nice work!

[Mike Sweeney]

Mayday,

Just as a FYI, I think your argument works better if you compare FH to courses in Ireland. Where do you think FH would be rated if it was located in Ireland?

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