[mike_malone]

 "Thoughtful heretic" I like that, but I think of myself as a skeptic. And I trust my feelings over what the majority says. If my experience doesn't confirm the party line I go with my experience. I loved Pine Valley, NGLA,N.Berwick,Rye,Deal, and many other courses that I went into with high expectations.

[John Kirk]

I like this thread, and though I've played the course a few times, I'm not going to offer many opinions here.  I've very curious what others have to say.

As far as a unique contribution to golf, consider that the "dune" holes at Friar's Head are actually moraine holes, and that Friar's Head may be unique among great courses because it is right on the Harbor Hill Moraine, which defines the northern edge of the island.

Mike Sweeney: Because of the sensitive nature of the moraine, I doubt a finishing hole along the cliffs would be allowed.

Bstark:  Take a shot at it, if you don't mind.  What do you find about Friar's Head to be uniquely challenging and strategic?

An undeniably great asset of the course is its walkability.  Great walk, great park.  I like the course and place a lot, but I need to hear the argument for its strategic excellence.

[mike_malone]

 Rory,

    That is a very good question. The stretch at Enniscrone that went up the hill then down with the little dunes on the right followed  closely by the par 5 with the staggered cross bunkering and the green set high and ended with the downhill par 3 was just such a great fun time.  I forgot the hole that runs along the estuary as well which had a devilish bunker right where you want to run the ball on the green. Several looks and several times where the preshot thinking required decisions. I loved it. I also enjoy this kind of golf when it is understated and not in your face.
  At FH I certainly did not get that feeling of being in a place of unique naturalness (in the flatter holes) as I did in that stretch at Enniscrone.

   At Narin /Portnoo there was a stretch with a dogleg left up the hill, and a few intriguing par fours with the much photographed par three as the centerpiece which comes to mind as well.

  Unfortunately, for my feelings at FH I was locked into high expectations for uniqueness by the time we came to the end. They were probably unfairly , on my part, too high.
    

[Jud_T]

Why is uniqueness so high on the list of criteria? Old Head is unique but that doesn't mean it's not a dogtrack with a great view....How about simply great strategic golf using the property that was given?

[mike_malone]

 Jud,

   On that day at that course I decided to make it important. The "uniqueness" of Old Head has nothing to do with architecture, therefore I ignore it.

    Using your idea of great strategic golf using the property that was given I feel that FH does not distinguish itself. It is a very fine course but I'm failing to see what makes it stand out .

[Jim Thornton]

Mike-

Did you find the green complex at the Par 4 6th hole at FH to be challenging?

Just curious.

Jim

[Bill_McBride]

Mike, where was the pin on #5 and how did that affect the way you played the hole?  How did you play the hole.

I personally thought that was the best short par 4 I played that year.

One disappointing thing at Friars Head was the lack of any view of the sound at any point on the course.  Even if they couldn't put any greens right on the cliff - although #15 came close - it would have been exciting cool to at least have a view of the water.

[mike_malone]

 I hardly ever remember specific hole #'s . I don't even try.

  Could you describe them? I do recall the short 5 on the front because the pin was just over a ridge in a neat spot.

[Bill_McBride]

I hardly ever remember specific hole #'s . I don't even try.

  Could you describe them? I do recall the short 5 on the front because the pin was just over a ridge in a neat spot.

That's most likely the one, #5.  It heads back toward the practice area at the base of the dune and has a big fairway bunker in the center line.  Then there's a very neat knob right in the front center of the green, almost like #2 TOC.  With a front pin you have to deal with that and the greenside bunkers, plus the green slopes away pretty good - this is my favorite design element from C&C, front to back greens.

This was followed by the neat dogleg left #6, with a lot of contours in the fairway and a big bunker in the corner.  For a flat former potato field, there is a of very natural looking contouring out there.

These very good holes in the flats are part of the reasons why I appreciate Friars Head so much.

[Jim Thornton]

Mike-

Somebody told me that the pin was back on the 6th hole and that your ball was left of the green.  They told me after an almost perfectly executed pitch shot, your ball continued to roll and roll until it ran off the green on the right side of the green.  They then went on to tell me that you hit two consecutive pitches from the right side and that both carried to the green before slowly rolling off the green and coming back to your feet.  It could all be a vicious rumor, but I'm just sayin'.

Jim

[Bill_McBride]

Mike-

Somebody told me that the pin was back on the 6th hole and that your ball was left of the green.  They told me after an almost perfectly executed pitch shot, your ball continued to roll and roll until it ran off the green on the right side of the green.  They then went on to tell me that you hit two consecutive pitches from the right side and that both carried to the green before slowly rolling off the green and coming back to your feet.  It could all be a vicious rumor, but I'm just sayin'.

Jim

Jim, that story reminds me of some of the diabolical greens at C&C's Austin Golf Club that I played last week in Texas.      You would not want to miss #6 to the left although the shape of the hole might lead one to do so.

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

    I don't know who your source is but he is daffy. As I said previously, I love strategy but can't execute worth a damn.

[Jim Thornton]

Bill-

The place you REALLY don't want to miss is long on the Par 5 14th hole with the pin cut on the back.  You could shoot a million from that position and never finish the hole.

Jim

[Bill_McBride]

Bill-

The place you REALLY don't want to miss is long on the Par 5 14th hole with the pin cut on the back.  You could shoot a million from that position and never finish the hole.

Jim

So you would recommend just picking up your ball and climbing the "Stairway to Heaven?"   

[JESII]

Mike,

I haven't been to Friar's Head but I wonder if your expectations casued the let down...could it really be a course you have no interest in ever going back to?

[Jim Thornton]

Bill-

That's precisely what I recommend.  The first time I played there I hit it in the back bunker (sand dune) on the 14th and proceeded to blast out, only to see the ball trickle off the green and run 40 yards back down the fairway.  Five shots later, I finally picked up my ball and trudged up the stairs behind the green to the 15th tee.  The 14th at FH is easily one of the greatest green complexes I've ever seen.

Jim

[Bill_McBride]

Bill-

That's precisely what I recommend.  The first time I played there I hit it in the back bunker (sand dune) on the 14th and proceeded to blast out, only to see the ball trickle off the green and run 40 yards back down the fairway.  Five shots later, I finally picked up my ball and trudged up the stairs behind the green to the 15th tee.  The 14th at FH is easily one of the greatest green complexes I've ever seen.

Jim

With #7 not far behind.  Those are four very good par 5's.  Maybe that's what we can use to sell Mike Malone on the "greatness of Friars Head!"  How many other courses have four very good par 5's?

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

   I said I was satisfied with a single play. You know how aggravating it is to go to Long Island. I will gladly put up with to play Shinnecock or NGLA again, but not for FH or Bethpage Black.

[mike_malone]

 The par fives were where I particularly felt that "overthinking". Because the land did not dictate the architecture in the potato holes C+C used their bunkering to create a particular approach to play. They certainly make sure they touch all of the bases by choosing from the palate for the usual options.

[Jim Thornton]

Bill-

The Par 5 7th hole's green complex, as you rightly noted, is sublime.  I would be more than happy to take a shag bag up to that green and spending hours chipping and putting from different areas around the green.

What can I say about Mike Malone's assertion that FH is not a great course.  It's hard to argue with taste.....some people like Monet, some people like Velvet Elvis.  I'll leave it to you to decide which camp Mike Malone falls into.

Jim

[mike_malone]

Jim,

    FH is not in Monet's league.

[Jim Thornton]

Mike-

That may be, but an umimpeachable witness observed you loading three gilt framed velvet Elvis portraits into the back of your station wagon at South of the Border in Dillon, South Carolina.

Jim

[bstark]

 Mike,
 
  I think #9 is just as imaginative as #10. The hole from the members' tees puts much more doubt in the players mind than from the tee shot from the back mark. A power fade is the desired shot but the prevailing wind will take it into the dunes on the right if not controlled. The green has some great pins behind the ant hill on the right side, which wraps beautifully back to the first tee. The front left is really not pinnable. It is a fantastic finisher for the front.
   As to the lack of naturalness on the front; # 3 is pretty much what was there to begin with and a great long par 4. #6 was there when it was a farm as well, I know it used to collect water on the lower left, but has since been de-watered. The carry over the left bunker is not as far as it looks. As to #5 you can play it with a 5 iron or driver and still have a great chance to make birdie. The angle of attack varies depending on which side of the center line bunker you choose and with wind can be a devilish little second shot.
   I guess to answer your question as to what FH adds to golf architecture, in my opionion it is a modern course with a throwback feel. No rakes, yardages, carts or frills, just golf. The seamless nature of the bunkering is a strong point and doesn't feel forced at all to me. The Coore Crenshaw imprint made a unique property a great golf course that gets better with age. I really don't understand when you say you felt "prompted" or "guided" around the course.

[Bill_McBride]

Mike,
 
  I think #9 is just as imaginative as #10. The hole from the members' tees puts much more doubt in the players mind than from the tee shot from the back mark. A power fade is the desired shot but the prevailing wind will take it into the dunes on the right if not controlled. The green has some great pins behind the ant hill on the right side, which wraps beautifully back to the first tee. The front left is really not pinnable. It is a fantastic finisher for the front.
   As to the lack of naturalness on the front; # 3 is pretty much what was there to begin with and a great long par 4. #6 was there when it was a farm as well, I know it used to collect water on the lower left, but has since been de-watered. The carry over the left bunker is not as far as it looks. As to #5 you can play it with a 5 iron or driver and still have a great chance to make birdie. The angle of attack varies depending on which side of the center line bunker you choose and with wind can be a devilish little second shot.
   I guess to answer your question as to what FH adds to golf architecture, in my opionion it is a modern course with a throwback feel. No rakes, yardages, carts or frills, just golf. The seamless nature of the bunkering is a strong point and doesn't feel forced at all to me. The Coore Crenshaw imprint made a unique property a great golf course that gets better with age. I really don't understand when you say you felt "prompted" or "guided" around the course.

Maybe he was talking about the caddies, they pretty much do "guide" you around the course with no yardage guide, no markers.........

[Tom_Doak]

Do they still give you a scorecard with no yardages on it?

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