[mike_malone]

 There are numerous examples of courses with two distinct types of playing areas. Sometimes it is trees and openness; sometimes it is in the hills and down in the flats. You aren't the only person who spoke of "escalators". That term seems to be part of the marketing of FH.

[Bill_McBride]

There are numerous examples of courses with two distinct types of playing areas. Sometimes it is trees and openness; sometimes it is in the hills and down in the flats. You aren't the only person who spoke of "escalators". That term seems to be part of the marketing of FH.

It's actually one I coined in a conversation with Tom Nacaratto after I played there in 2007.

Unless someone else coined it first!  I thought it was a brilliant way to get down and up so you didn't spend half the course up above and half of it down.

[mike_malone]

Well, Bill it's out there now. You should be getting royalties!

[mike_malone]

  I think factors like exclusivity, photogeniety, the struggle to get the course built, the determination of the founder, the C+C mystique are  factors beyond the architecture that I believe account for a significant part of the FH's rise to star status.

[Carl Nichols]

Bill:
Do you prefer escalators (FH) to elevators (Bel Air)? 

[Mike Sweeney]

Mayday

Can you list your 10 favorite courses that you have played in the US?

Thanks

[mike_malone]

 I define "favorite" as courses I want to play over and over again. Outside of my general Philly area I would only want to make an effort to return to NGLA , Yale , Myopia Hunt, and Plainfield. Courses that are highly regarded where a single play has been enough are FH, WFW, BPB. What I believe to be my favorite course I have yet to play is Shinnecock with Oakmont as a possible.

   My other favorites are local.  The Flynns like PCC, LCC, HVGC; PVGC;Twisted Dune;Scotland Run; Torresdale Frankford;Glen Mills.

   That's 12, sorry.



   BTW, what took you so long to tweak me?

[Bill_McBride]

Well, Bill it's out there now. You should be getting royalties!

My usual luck.   

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:
Do you prefer escalators (FH) to elevators (Bel Air)? 

Bel Air's pretty cool but they have messed up that course.   Those photos Jon Spaulding posted were heinous, all the rock lined ponds.

How about funiculars?  Industry Hills, Indian Valley (Novato CA)......

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am also in the club who really liked FH the first time around, but had some questions about 3,4 and the other par 3 in the potato field. The second time cemented this course in my mind as an elite course in America. That means it is in the top 30 or so really special courses. I feel FH is one of the best products of one of the best modern design teams in the world. It will be interesting to watch it evolve.

[Mike Sweeney]

I guess I am genuinely surprised that you did not love FH enough for a return visit. It has the movement that you love on many holes and very good to great greens on just about all the holes.

Maybe the flat holes are not your thing, but again I am genuinely surprised that you did not see uniqueness in 15, 16, 9. I think the tie in to the clubhouse on #9  is very unique to golf. What other course in the world has your tee shot away from the water on #18? C&C obviously thought they had something special there otherwise they would have done the standard 18 along the cliffs (see National, Eastward Ho! and Pebble).

You left out Hidden Creek and even Flynn's Indian Creek from your favorites list, so maybe flat courses and courses with flat holes are just never going to pass the Mayday test. You probably don't need to see Garden City.

[Mike Sweeney]

That was a big hit off Joba!

[Sean_A]

 Sean,

 Oakmont's relentless toughness from tee to green would be one example. Pine Valley's angled tee shots and width on those holes for the lesser golfer. NGLA's use of the template holes is another. These courses are defined by their distinctiveness.

   I can imagine it is difficult for new courses. But, Scotland Run's use of the sand quarry is an example in our area. Twisted Dune's use of artificial dunes with a massive amount of sand recovered from a dredging also has distinctiveness.  Kelly Blake Moran's Lederach has defined "unconventional" for public courses in our area.


      

Mayday

By those sorts of standards, you are going to struggle to have many great courses unless your idea of distinctiveness stretches to several courses being difficult as its singular trait etc.  I would also think that you could have distinctive courses which aren't great. Lederach and possibly Tobacco Road (I haven't made my mind up on this course yet!) being good examples.  Additionally, can't you have great courses that just sit very well with themselves without being truly outstanding in any way?  In other words, an intelligent design which presents little questions at every corner which gives it a great character.  Woking is the sort of place I think of in this vein and I do think it is great.  



Ciao  

[Kevin Pallier]

   Kevin,

   You would travel all the way from Australia to play just here?

Mike

If it was the ONLY course I got to play on a trip to NY ? I'd certainly be happy with that.

I saw some mighty fine golf courses in the NY region. I put FH in the same bracket as Fishers Island - a step just below the likes of Shinnecock & NGLA. That's pretty good company for mine.

I like the way with which one had choices into most greensites at FH. You could take the aerial route or use the contours of the land to try and get your ball close to the hole. It's a common trait I found in the C&C sites I saw throughout my trip. They do it so very well - rarely are the greensites bunkered on both sides with large bunkers.

[jeffwarne]

 What other course in the world has your tee shot away from the water on #18? C&C obviously thought they had something special there otherwise they would have done the standard 18 along the cliffs (see National, Eastward Ho! and Pebble).

Mike,
The "standard" 18

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,
The "standard" 18

I know, I know. If you hang around here a little too long a little obnoxiousness is bound to happen! Doakey still has not gotten me on Sebonack so I still remain on the "B" team around here. 

[mike_malone]

   I must say that most commentary on these highly regarded courses is too sweet and not critical. I recall Mike Cirba's comments on Hidden Creek which elicited some specific comments supporting the course.  While I still hear most of the responses to this topic as " It is one of the best new courses", there have been a few that attempted to specify what makes the course great.


   I just think you need to generate some heat to get some light.


  Mike,

   I did like those holes but thought I was at a Pine Valley imitation at that point because around the 6th hole I decided to focus on distinctiveness as my criterion.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,

   I did like those holes but thought I was at a Pine Valley imitation at that point because around the 6th hole I decided to focus on distinctiveness as my criterion.

Mayday,

Honestly how distinct can any modern course be at this point with 15,000 already in the ground in the US? Sand Hills was/is distinct and now it has many imitators. The Bandon resort is a copy of Scotland/Ireland.

Distinct has the good chance of being irrelevant, which then causes financial loses:

 

[Jim Thornton]

Mike-

Your "distinctiveness" thesis is unraveling like a cheap suit.  To wit, you site Scotland Run's use of a sand quarry as distinctive.  Perhaps you've forgotten that Merion and Manufacturer's, just to name a couple, incorporated sand quarries in their routings - in both cases, many decades before Scotland Run.  Even Black Diamond Ranch in Florida famously incorporated a quarry, and that too was buildt two decades before Scotland Run.  You go on to site Twisted Dune's distinctive use of artificial dunes utilizing sand recovered from a dredging.  Here too, you seem to have forgotten Whistling Straits, buildt long before Twisted Dune, and the more recent Bayonne Golf Club, both of which incorporate artificial dunes and sand recovered from a dredging.

Are you seriously putting Scotland Run, Twisted Dune, and Glen Mills in the same category as NGLA, Yale, Myopia Hunt, and Plainfield?

Jim

[mike_malone]

  It may be that new courses can't be distinctive. I agree. But, if that means we then fall back on template ideas to placate the golf market the loser ,in my opinion, is architecture. We don't create new ideas.

  The reason I liked #10 so much was that it was in harmony with the place and had some individuality with that long green that sloped from front to back. The dune only partially blinded the green but ,with a front pin, required great execution to get close.


    Other than on this hole I can't recall many places where I made choices throughout the round.

   I found the playing of the course to be rather determined . Not like Galloway which seemed to require "hit it in the middle". But, C+C love to give you space. For my game that space wasn't challenging enough.

    Again, the same guy who loved Shinnecock, thought that there wasn't much challenge around the greens compared to Shinny.

     My game is such that I think I can do anthing but the execution is woeful. So, I see strategy as thinking about what to do before I hit the shot. I'm not usually trying to hit to a part of the green except for short shots. So, the wide expanses of green don't enter much in my mind strategically.

        I certainly don't expect them to design the course for me! But I'm just sharing that , in one person's opinion, the course seemed to be trying too hard to make a visual impression at the expense of playability.

[bstark]

"Even the playability for an average player like me was rather predictable and low on challenge."

Is this a joke??


 

   
 

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

    I was asked about my favorite courses. I try not to rank things. So, I'm not saying they are "great". I'm saying I enjoy playing them again and again. I don't even suggest that I know why that is. It is a feeling.


     I can only speak to places that I have been. So, "distinctiveness" is based on my experience. Since I have been to Merion and Manufacturers I can say that the difference between them and Scotland Run is the dominance of the sand quarry to the play of the total course and how it is used for carries that are forced or angled in different ways as well as the creation of parallel hazards but without penalty shots!

[mike_malone]

bstark,

    I guess I could have said "strategy" as I defined it rather than "challenge". My point is that I did not feel preshot stress about what I should try for a shot very often. I think that is an important part of great golf for me.  I'm more interested in how you experience it differently.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

I was actually refering to the first 150 yards between the two section of the property.
I liked the use of open sand and bunkers to blur the line between the two."


Ian:

In that vein, the work done behind #10 is pretty brilliant. There may be a lot more of it across that transition from east to west but that is one area that was pointed out to me.

On another note, eg Mike Malone, listen guys don't get hysterical over some of the things Mayday says on here. I know him and there is absolutely nothing in life he enjoys more than playing the part of the thoughtful HERETIC!

Mayday, forget the diner----if you go into Max's Lounge, at this point, your next stop will definitely be the ICU!

[Rory Connaughton]

Mike:

  Your analysis of Friar's Head seems rather similar to your analysis of Enniscrone with the key distinction that at Enniscrone you reported that you felt as though you were being manipulated in the Steele dunes holes and you were fairly complimentary of the flatter holes in the middle and estuary side of the course (5-10).  If I am incorrect, I apologize but if not, I would be curious to know what you saw in the flatter holes at Enniscrone that you did not see at FH and vice versa.  Thanks

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