[mike_malone]

  I'm mystified    I thought #10 was a wonderful hole which showed creativity and was an imaginative use of the land . Beyond that I experienced that feeling I often get at these highly regarded new courses. I feel that my experience is being guided or prompted.


     The potato farm part , in my opinion, should have been more subtle. In this part of the course I too often was distracted by the unnatural contouring of the fairways and the overbunkering. I admit that is my own bias, but I really don't like the overly engineered modern fairways that attempt to create false undulations. It seems to fight with the land.

    I never pay attention to the nonarchitectural things. The welcome was superb, the weather sublime, the company great, and I played well. So, none of those things affected me.


    I liked the fact that #1 was a severe uphill green. That broke the mold of many #1 holes. But, then we were quickly put into the chamber and moved around the course from the center line bunkers on the short par 4's to the efforts at testing the second shots on par 5's.

   The dunes holes were more challenging , of course. And I certainly understand that too many of these holes would have been over the top.

    But, I was looking for more front to back sloping greens on the flatter holes and less thought on each hole.


      Certainly it is a very good course,but


                           WHAT ABOUT IT ADDS SOMETHING DISTINCTIVE ARCHITECTURALLY ?

   Why do these C+C courses get launched into the strastosphere so quickly?

[David Mulle]

Mike,
A point of clarification if you don't mind:

What do you mean by "I was looking for . . . less thought on each hole"?

Is it that you felt the influence of the architects at FH more than you did at other courses?   (To me, this seems consistent with your comments about Pennard)

BTW: Too bad about the Phillies.

[Jerry Kluger]

Mayday: You have left me speechless. If anything, I thought the sublety of the potato field was the genius of it all.  Did you feel that they moved too much dirt to create those holes - if anything, there is really not that much movement to the fairways other than what was there before.  If I were to take issue with a C & C course it would be Colorado Golf. Look at Hidden Creek and how well it works on good land for firm and fast conditions but not much movement.  Also compare the dunes holes at FH with the holes on the hillside at CG - there's no comparison.  To me, FH is the best modern course on Long Island and from an architectural point of view took more to design than Sand Hills - please don't interpret from this that I am saying it is better than SH.

[Ian Andrew]

WHAT ABOUT IT ADDS SOMETHING DISTINCTIVE ARCHITECTURALLY ?

The tie in between two completely different sites is phenomenal.

They used a combination of expanses of sand and bunkering to make a seamless transition from one site to the other. You never really feel the change because there are enough subtle and not so subtle details added to make the mind adjust as you pass from the dunes and out into the fields.

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

I think Bill did a very good job of trying to tie in two very different pieces of property, but I don't think it's perfect.  The third and fourth holes don't fit with the rest, for me.  The greens on both are the squarish, Raynor-type greens that Bill sometimes falls back on when there is nothing unique about a green site ... but they don't fit with the rest of the greens at Friars Head, which are, generally speaking, the best greens Coore & Crenshaw have ever built.  (Note:  it could be that I saw the course too early in its life, and that these disparities have been made fuzzy over time.)

That's why Friars Head would "only" be a 9 on the Doak scale.

Mike M: 

I don't concur with your feeling of being "guided around" the property, except to the extent that there are a lot of parallel holes in the open fields -- which was probably inevitable once the decision was made to put the clubhouse all the way at the back of the property.

[Dean Stokes]

As I recall Tom, numbers 1,13, 15 and 16 are also 'squarish'.

Question for Mike M. If you had never read that the front nine was built on an old potatoe field, would you have known?

Thanks.

[TEPaul]

Who on here saw those potato fields before they did anything to them? Wooo, I'll tell you they were definitely dead flat. Mayday, if they did less or basically nothing to them as you seem to be suggesting they would be pretty damn boring no matter how they "featured" them.

Never in my life have I seen such completely different topography in such a relatively confined space as that site was before anything was done to it. The dunes part of that site was naturally and originally so radical topographically I think Coore came close to deciding they just may not be able to get holes in there without doing too much earth movement.

Interestingly, the hole they say they found first which is pretty much just the way it was is #6.

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

mikcj says to tell you if you keep asking these kinds of infidellian questions about FH, C&C and their architecture there is no way in Hell you will ever see the inside of Max's Lounge! So you better mind your manners and watch your damn tongue Boy! I've got some pretty sweet tasting soap over here if you want to wash your mouth out.

The question is----What does Friar's Head add to the portfolio of great courses?

THE answer is, which you will now repeat after me-----it adds at least 557% to the portfolio of great courses, Son, and don't you forget it!

[mike_malone]

I'm glad I provoked some architectural discussion on this site for once,


     Ian,

     Would you say that strategy of connecting the two sites was distinctve or a copy of some other course?


  David,

    I think you stated it well. I have a bias against seeing the architect's hand too much.


     TEPaul,

        What I would love to see is something a bit more flowing in the fairway contours on these flattisn areas.


  Dean,

    I would not have known about the potato fields but I would know it was quite engineered.


     Jerry,

   I never thought of "subtlety" when I played the flatter holes. I think I prefer HC. for subtley.



        I admit to being a tough critic but we are talking about a course anointed as "great".

   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

You're the first person I've ever encountered who was underwhelmed by Friar's Head.

I won't go into detail, discussing the myriad of micro features, rather, look at the issue in a macro sense.

Ask yourself, would you be content to play Friar's Head every day, for the rest of your life, enjoying every round.
That's the ultimate evaluation.

For me, the answer is "YES", Friar's Head is one of those courses that meets my test, the test of repeated play, for the rest of my life.

I don't see how you can go wrong.

Wide fairways, interesting greens and surrounds, and THE WIND.

It's a perfect combination.

You need to play it again,........ if they'll let you

[mike_malone]

Pat,

   I always keep your "go back to the first tee and play it again" criterion in mind. I had my fill after one play. I can't believe that Tom Doak would travel across the country just to play here which I think a  9 requires. If they don't allow me back I won't feel disappointed and I don't think they will miss me either.


   I don't see enough distinctiveness in the course to have it vault into the rankings.

   Even the playability for an average player like me was rather predictable and low on challenge.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

I do think it's a "travel across the country to play" type of course, though I wouldn't do it tomorrow ... I have already played it three times.

I will say that I wasn't as high on it after my first visit as I am today.  Partly, like you, I thought it had been oversold ... some goofball had gone so far as to pronounce it "the Cypress Point of the East Coast" and that is hard to live up to.  But, every time I've gone back I've liked it that much more, and every time the conditioning has gotten more like it's supposed to be.  I would certainly be proud to call it my own, even if I would have done some things differently.

[Kevin Pallier]

Mayday

Unlike you - I was most impressed with the routing given the site.

Obviously they had to incorporate the field area into the routing and despite possibilly a feeling of a few "overdone" bunkers within the stretch of holes 2-4 I couldn't fault the way they then routed 5-9.

The finish in and amongst the dunes is superb and with only one major hill area to use on the F9 I think C&C did a very fine job.

EDIT:
Was it worth travelling across the world to see  ? Yes

[mike_malone]

 I played with a gentleman who considers Shinnecock his favorite course. Around the 6th hole I asked him how he felt here versus there. His response was that it was not close in favor of Shinny.

    Kevin,

   You would travel all the way from Australia to play just here?


      I'm still convinced that it adds little to the great course variety in this country. NGLA, Shinny, Pine Valley, Oakmont would be four courses that I have seen in person which have a personality that sets them apart. Overseas I would think of Ballybunion and Royal County Down as examples of architectural distinctiveness.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Who on here saw those potato fields before they did anything to them? Wooo, I'll tell you they were definitely dead flat. Mayday, if they did less or basically nothing to them as you seem to be suggesting they would be pretty damn boring no matter how they "featured" them.

Never in my life have I seen such completely different topography in such a relatively confined space as that site was before anything was done to it. The dunes part of that site was naturally and originally so radical topographically I think Coore came close to deciding they just may not be able to get holes in there without doing too much earth movement.

Interestingly, the hole they say they found first which is pretty much just the way it was is #6.

 
  I saw the potato fields prior to any work being done. Without going into much detail, as my love for FH is well documentated here...The holes located in the dunes are SO DAMN GOOD that it makes the field holes appear sublime, when it reality, that's really good golf! The routing is second to none and is so well thoughtout, as to not overwell the golfer with all field holes to start, or all dunes holes to start, but the routing gives you a taste of both throughout the front and back nine...simply genious!

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

I was actually refering to the first 150 yards between the two section of the property.
I liked the use of open sand and bunkers to blur the line between the two.

Mike,

I'm sorry but I don't understand your question.

[Jim Thornton]

Mike-

Just curious.....had anyone on GCA ever stated that Friar's Head is superior to Shinnecock, NGLA, Oakmont, or Pine Valley, as your message would seem to to infer.  The four courses that you mentioned are universally considered among the top 10 in the country, if not the world.  Let me see if I understand your point.....if FH is not architecturally distinctive vs. those four courses then it can't be considered great?  If that is your filter, then very few courses, if any, rise to that level.

I believe FH, along with Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes, ranks among the top 3 courses built in the last 50 years - and that's a pretty high standard.  Just not high enough to pass your standard.

Jim 

[mike_malone]

 Ian,

    My interest is in the distinctiveness of the course. So, I ask whether that connection between the high and low parts of the property was unique in some way.

[mike_malone]

Jim,

   I think it is mentioned in the same sentence with the best courses. I'm trying to establish a standard of greatness that includes "distinctiveness".  My suspicion is that there is something behind this love affair that has little to do with great architecture.

[Sean_A]

I played with a gentleman who considers Shinnecock his favorite course. Around the 6th hole I asked him how he felt here versus there. His response was that it was not close in favor of Shinny.

    Kevin,

   You would travel all the way from Australia to play just here?


      I'm still convinced that it adds little to the great course variety in this country. NGLA, Shinny, Pine Valley, Oakmont would be four courses that I have seen in person which have a personality that sets them apart. Overseas I would think of Ballybunion and Royal County Down as examples of architectural distinctiveness.

Mayday

I like the acid test of traveling, spending at least a night and paying the green fee for a great course much more than I do of going back to the 1st tee upon finishing a game.  With this in mind, is Friar's Head worth the effort and expense?  

I would also like a few examples of distinctiveness (not obvious ones) which make a course great.

Ciao  

[C. Squier]

From what I've read and seen (seems like few pics exist) Friar's Head benefits from 2 very distinct "environments" between the dunes and the field.  One of my favorite LI courses, Creek, benefits from this feature.  I think it definitely speaks to an architect's ability to use the land given and create a balance between these different areas.  

Does this add to the mystique of FH?  During my visit to LI last year, when talking to locals no other course was as coveted as FH, which certainly raised my interests in seeing it....I just missed out on winning a charity auction for it.  I will say, Ran's black and white photos do give it a romantic look.  

[Bill_McBride]

One of the things I love about Cypress Point is the way you go in and out of the different environments of dunes, forest and ocean front.  This in and out weaves a great dynamic, with the climax along the ocean for the first time in the round.

Friars Head gives you the same feeling, which in my opinion makes it a great piece of golf architecture and exceptional routing skills.  Coore and Crenshaw were given a bunch of relatively flat land, the former potato field, and some great dunes land with valleys and dunes.  How they painstakingly found a routing that takes you back and forth and creates that dynamic routing is the tale of Friars Head.  This is what makes it one of the top golf courses built in the past 20 years.

The course starts out up in the dunes and plays over a valley up onto a dune.  Then a par 5 takes you from an elevated tee and down into the potato field.  The fact that I have no idea what was shaped and what is natural of holes 2-7 is part of the genius of the place.  Those are terrific holes.  The first part of #2 plays down off the dunes, the green of #7 is set up against the slope of that dune.

#8 - 10 are up in the dunes and have a different feeling, the feeling of being in the dunes.

#11 tee is, like #2, on top of the dune, and down you go to start the next stretch of holes in the potato field.  #13 takes you back to the base of the dunes, and #14 is another par 5 that takes you up back up into the dunesland, where the green is benched into a giant dune.

#15 - 18 finish your round in the dunes, all very good holes with that dunesland feeling.

It's a routing of genius, I think.  The real genius of the routing is what I call "the escalators," the par 5s that take you down from the dunes and back up again.  Each is a very solid hole, with the uphill greens being diabolical with their slopes.

I think Friars Head will stand the test of time and will continue to be one of the top courses on Long Island.  As I mentioned in a recent thread on Austin Golf Club, I think the C&C strength is in design of greens, but in this case it's the full package - routing, location of great natural holes, natural looking shaping, and super green sites and bunkering.

Just wondering.  Did Tommy ever finish the yardage book?

[mike_malone]

  Sean,

 Oakmont's relentless toughness from tee to green would be one example. Pine Valley's angled tee shots and width on those holes for the lesser golfer. NGLA's use of the template holes is another. These courses are defined by their distinctiveness.

   I can imagine it is difficult for new courses. But, Scotland Run's use of the sand quarry is an example in our area. Twisted Dune's use of artificial dunes with a massive amount of sand recovered from a dredging also has distinctiveness.  Kelly Blake Moran's Lederach has defined "unconventional" for public courses in our area.


     

[mike_malone]

 Bill,

   How is this routing "genius " when it seems to be a copycat of other courses with two types of land?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

   How is this routing "genius " when it seems to be a copycat of other courses with two types of land?

To me it's the use of the par 5s as transitional holes.

You seem to have set your mind about this, not exactly sure why, as I had a wonderful day there, two buddies and a caddy, and felt pretty confident that this was a special course.

What are examples of other courses where there are two types of land that are separated in such different terrains?

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